Druid Tank Optimization

[Gelondil]

I need some critique & suggestions for my level 11 druid tank build. I have the following base idea in mind, but it needs work bad, and I am not certain I understand the wild shape dynamics yet. Ideas for feats, wild shape forms, & animal companions from here or for higher levels would be very welcome.

My goal is to maximize front-line survivability and saves, while losing as few druid levels as possible... And preferably without having to maintain self buffs other than hour/level or wild shape. The DM will allow Vow of Poverty, and I built my idea with that in mind. Party of 6-7 PC's, so there should be another tank and definitely a cleric.


House rules - lvl 11, 32 pb, 76k starting gold (but see below), +1 max LA. Unlocked class skills stay unlocked, standardized hp = 1/2 hd rounded up

The Build
Human Monk 1, Druid 6, Nature's Warrior 4 (armor of the crocodile / wild growth)
Base stats Str 10, Dex 10, Con 16(18), Int 12, Wis 16(22), Cha 12

Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Natural Spell, Fast Wild Shape, Assume Supernatural Form, Natural Bond.
exalted - Nymph’s Kiss, Intuitive Attack, Exalted Wild Shape, Sanctify Natural Attack, Animal Friend, Exalted Companion.

If my math is right, that's approx

• 29 ac base +nat armor +dex in wild shape form. Crappy touch
• +16 Fort, +6 Ref, +15 Wil
• 106 hp, DR 5/magic, fast healing 1
• +15/+15/+11 hit, +2/good bonus +4 natural damage.
• 10/11 wild shape progression
• 8/11 spell progression
• 83 skill points

AND... AC/DR/damage types stack with Wild Shape.

Other Ideas/Observations/Fluff/Etc:
I don't need the "perfect" build, and RP trumps stats, but I see lots of room for improvement... I'm lacking spell levels, wild shape feats, BAB, and I haven't even started on my standard spellbook.
Edit - Updated because I guess I wasn't clear...
I am doing this build for fun, I know Druid X PrC 0 is the "best" druid build... But I don't want a generic CoDzilla. I also don't want to assume I'll have the opportunity to be pre-buffed for each battle...

• monk is optional - only took it for the AC. If I can figure out how to maintain this ac without the monk level, that'd be much better,
• Animal companion is optional
• VoP is not required -... plus it has high RP value as well
• Exalted wild shape is optional, but Blink Dog wildshape is slick (35 ac + blink + dimension hop as free action?)
• Warshaper 2?
• Combat Expertise?
• Shapeshift allows significantly better AC stacking but I would prefer to avoid losing wild shape variety.
• ...add Fist of Forest for Con stacking? but feat cost is way high, and moving points from wis = bad.
• ...add a +1 LA creature template for more AC & more RP. Again, loses feats. (no anthro bats or monkeys)
• Is there a feat that assumes special qualities of wild shape ala MoMF lvl 7?
• Aberrant Blood + Aberrant Wildshape (beholder!)

[Bosh]

Trying to optimize a druid by multi-classing is a lot like trying to improve a chocolate bar by adding gravy to it. Its not really necessary and just gets in the way.

You'd probably be better off with a straight-up druid, natural spell, a big freaking animal companion and a lot of shared buffs.

[Mr.Bookworm]

...Druid 11.

Natural Spell.

A solid knowledge of good Wild Shape forms.

A Fleshraker animal companion.

Really, breaking a Druid is pretty easy.

[SoD]

Well, the idea, although sound, won't work with monk, unless it's ex-monk. Monk=lawful. Druid=neatrul. Sacred vows=good. Therefore, you'd need to be LNG or some combination like that to pull it off. However (and I hate to say it), you could try a swordsage, from Tome of Battle (Book of Nine Swords). They get wisdom to AC, although, exactly as written, it's only in light armour. However, if you take the unarmed swordsage, that'd fix that easily enough.

And for +1 LA creatures which are worth it, or templates, you could try 'dark' creature (nice bonuses to hide/move silently, bonus to speed, and hide in plain sight), mineral warrior (Underdark), Feral (Savage Species) and Lolth-touched (which you can't have, as you become CE...but what tank can say no to +6 con, +6 str for +1 LA?) are all decent +1 LA templates. Feral and Mineral Warrior would be best for you (once we discount Lolth-touched [MM...3, I think]), but making them fit your concept may be slightly challenging.

[Vortling]

Do you have the spell compendium? If you do, look up the Bite of the Were(animal) line of spells. They're very useful.

[RTGoodman]

...Druid 11.

Natural Spell.

A solid knowledge of good Wild Shape forms.

A Fleshraker animal companion.

Really, breaking a Druid is pretty easy.

Indeed. If you're feelin' funky, you might add in a few levels of Warshaper (Complete Warrior) for some other boosts to wild shape, but it's not really necessary. Otherwise, if you're dead-set on Monk (and don't want or can't use ToB for Swordsage), check out the Fist of the Forest PrC from Complete Champion for some great Con synergy.

Also, drop the Vow of Poverty. A Druid is probably the best way to use it, but it's still basically a trap if your DM gives anything close to standard WBL.

[kjones]

Well, the idea, although sound, won't work with monk, unless it's ex-monk. Monk=lawful. Druid=neatrul. Sacred vows=good. Therefore, you'd need to be LNG or some combination like that to pull it off. However (and I hate to say it), you could try a swordsage, from Tome of Battle (Book of Nine Swords). They get wisdom to AC, although, exactly as written, it's only in light armour. However, if you take the unarmed swordsage, that'd fix that easily enough.

And for +1 LA creatures which are worth it, or templates, you could try 'dark' creature (nice bonuses to hide/move silently, bonus to speed, and hide in plain sight), mineral warrior (Underdark), Feral (Savage Species) and Lolth-touched (which you can't have, as you become CE...but what tank can say no to +6 con, +6 str for +1 LA?) are all decent +1 LA templates. Feral and Mineral Warrior would be best for you (once we discount Lolth-touched [MM...3, I think]), but making them fit your concept may be slightly challenging.

Unless I'm misremembering, a Druid can be Lawful Neutral, as can a Monk.

But I would recommend the shapeshift variant - what "variety of forms" are you so concerned about losing, anyways? You get all the important stuff (bear, bird, tree, etc), more or less, and the rules are a lot nicer.

EDIT: I should really read your entire post before correcting you...

[monty]

Unless I'm misremembering, a Druid can be Lawful Neutral, as can a Monk.

And Exalted feats require you to be good. Therein lies the problem.

[Gelondil]

Well, the idea, although sound, won't work with monk, unless it's ex-monk. Monk=lawful. Druid=neatrul. Sacred vows=good.

I assumed ex-monk, due to LG to NG alignment shift. I think my DM would allow it, and if not, I could always be a ninja as well :)

[SoD]

I assumed ex-monk, due to LG to NG alignment shift. I think my DM would allow it, and if not, I could always be a ninja as well :)

However, I beleive monk would be easier to explain (searching nature for inner perfection).

I personally would houserule to make the vows not have a 'good' alignment for a pre-req. Non-evil, sure, but has to be good?

[Gelondil]

Trying to optimize a druid by multi-classing is a lot like trying to improve a chocolate bar by adding gravy to it. Its not really necessary and just gets in the way.

I'm not trying to optimize a druid by multiclassing. I'm trying to find ways to improve a class mix I put together... To continue your analogy - how am I going to get more peanut flavor into my Chocolate bar without taking out any more chocolate than I already have?

Indeed. If you're feelin' funky, you might add in a few levels of Warshaper (Complete Warrior) for some other boosts to wild shape, but it's not really necessary. Otherwise, if you're dead-set on Monk (and don't want or can't use ToB for Swordsage), check out the Fist of the Forest PrC from Complete Champion for some great Con synergy.

Also, drop the Vow of Poverty. A Druid is probably the best way to use it, but it's still basically a trap if your DM gives anything close to standard WBL.

Erm, as I said, I'm actually *not* dead set on monk, I'd get rid of it if I could find an alternative for the 6 AC, which is all I took it for. VoP is more-or-less required for this, as it's what I built the character around. Also, Warshaper and FoF are already on my list of alternate ideas, but the feat reqs for FoF are insane.

[Superglucose]

And for +1 LA creatures which are worth it, or templates, you could try 'dark' creature (nice bonuses to hide/move silently, bonus to speed, and hide in plain sight), mineral warrior (Underdark), Feral (Savage Species) and Lolth-touched (which you can't have, as you become CE...but what tank can say no to +6 con, +6 str for +1 LA?) are all decent +1 LA templates. Feral and Mineral Warrior would be best for you (once we discount Lolth-touched [MM...3, I think]), but making them fit your concept may be slightly challenging.

Aaismar for the +wis? +Cha isn't useless for a druid either, if you're going to be using Wild Empathy. Plus a cha mod lowers the number of ranks you need in Handle Animal. Add in acid and electric resistance, darkvision, etc. etc.

Erm, as I said, I'm actually *not* dead set on monk, I'd get rid of it if I could find an alternative for the 6 AC, which is all I took it for. VoP is more-or-less required for this, as it's what I built the character around. Also, Warshaper and FoF are already on my list of alternate ideas, but the feat reqs for FoF are insane.

Wild +3 studded leather. Then you can go armored swordsage. If you can only spend 1/4 your starting wealth on an item, you can only get a +1 wild studded leather to begin with, but it's only 20,000 gp to get it enhance to a +3, and only a 48,000 gp to push it all the way to a +5 wild studded leather. Of course, if you can dump all your cash on a single item you can start with a +5 wild studded leather, and have 12,000 left over. That'll give you +8 to your AC.

So VoP (now I'm not sure how VoP works but correct me if I'm wrong) means you can't spend 76,000 gp and gives you a whole host of abilities, the one you want the most being +6 AC. For 64,000 gp you get +8 AC. For the +6 AC you would spend 36,000 gp.

[Gelondil]

KJones - your point is well taken, there isn't much variety in the first place for wild shape... I think I might just have been hung up on the non-standard wild shape ideas bouncing around in my head. If I want something exotic, I can just get an exotic companion. Wild shape is required for Nature's warrior, but I could probably live without that PRC.

SoD - thanks for the Feral suggestion - that's actually a really good compliment that would allow me to go shapeshifter/FotF with Con stacking, and would be perfectly in line with my original character idea - I was originally operating on an idea of a "tamed" but otherwise wild PC (it fits the campaign setting). Now I just need to find out where I would come up with the required feats for FoF without dropping VoP... Or wait until 12th level?

Feral Human Druid 9, FotF 1, Warshaper 2 at level 12+1... And general druid levels from there.


Superglucose
VoP is not for the +6 AC, that's what Monk was for. VoP is for the +9 (nine!) AC on top of that, DR 5/magic, +2/good enh bonus, extra feats, etc... It would be as if you bought a bundle of all the basic utility magic items. Could you just buy said bundle with 76K? Probably... but I'll leave it to someone more experienced to weigh the merits and flaws of the feat.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Vow of Poverty isn't worth it in a game with standard or higher wealth by level, usually not even in a game with slightly low wealth. Magic items give better benefits and much more versatility than you get from VoP. It's only worth taking in a game with prohibitively low wealth and magical gear, and/or in a game with severe restrictions on what magic items would be available.

Stay single-classed Druid, your spells will be far more beneficial than anything you could gain from multiclassing. You get your Wisdom bonus plus one to AC with a Monk's Belt, plus 5th level Monk unarmed damage (1d8 medium). There's absolutely no need to gain even a single Monk level, unless you're going with the sub-optimal VoP. There's an item in Masters of the Wild (3.0 but still valid) called a Wilding Clasp, they cost only 4,000 gp each and attach to a clothing-type item to prevent it from melding with your form when you Wild Shape. Get one for each item that you want to remain functional without having to unequip and reequip your gear every time you change forms.

Note that due to errata, Wild Shape currently functions as Alternate Form. Sadly enough this means you won't be able to target yourself with Animal Growth, though many DMs will grandfather in this trick despite the change.

I'd say the "best" race (that an actual DM would reasonably allow) for a Druid would be a Dragonborn of Bahamut (RotD), applied to a Gnome with Race of Water applied (+2 Con, swim speed, everything else is replaced by Dragonborn traits). That gets total ability modifiers of Str -2, Dex -2, and Con +6 for +0 LA and a Dragonborn aspect of your choice, preferably Mind for improved senses. After racial adjustments I'd go Str 13, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8, then put all your level-up points into Wisdom.

For feats you should definitely get Natural Spell at 6, and Natural Bond at 3. Get a Fleshraker dinosaur companion from MM3, it has a Level -3 attached but Natural Bond's +3 will negate that. Good feats to take at 1 would include Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, or Power Attack if your Str is high enough. I'd get Power Attack at 1 and Leap Attack at 9, sticking to forms with Pounce. At level 12+ maybe get Quicken Spell, Improved Toughness, or even Combat Reflexes. Your Fleshraker should get Virulent Poison from Savage Species (no prerequisite, +2 poison DC) and Ability Focus: Poison, then give it enough cross-class ranks in Spellcraft to get Mage Slayer from Complete Arcane.

For magic items, a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp is 17k, get the properties of a Healing Belt added to it for 1125, a Periapt of Wisdom +4 is 16k, two Lesser Rods of Extend for 6k, and a standard Metamagic Rod of Empower is 32.5k, leaving you 3375 gp which I'd spend on miscellaneous cheap items like a Wand of Lesser Vigor, Hand of the Mage, etc. Each day cast Superior Resistance on yourself for a 24-hour +6 to all saves, Extended Greater Magic Fang (+1 to everything) on both yourself and your animal companion, and get the party's arcane caster to use one of your metamagic rods to put a (Greater) Mage Armor on both you and your companion each day, and let him use the rod's last charge on one for himself.

Your favorite combat Wild Shape form should be either a Smilodon/saber-toothed tiger from Frostburn or Dire Lion, until you can take the form of a Dire Tiger. Dire Bear and Dire Polar Bear from Frostburn are superb to switch to after you've pounced on and grappled an opponent. You'll be a tank, your animal companion will be decently tanky, and with your spells you'll be able to handle nearly any situation that comes up.