4th Ed, 1st level, how to best kill things

[lisiecki]

I played my first game of 4th ed last night.
My paladin got separated from the group and repeatedly destroyed by gobbo's
Now im fixated on how to best be self reliant and kill things.
The game is 1st level, all the 1st and 3rd party books, web updates, ect are fair game.
The only house rule is that its 22 point buy, but all starts start at 10 for free.

Whats the best build for slaughter at 1st level
Class
Race
Powers
Toys

Help me kill them all!

thanks

[Starsinger]

Now im fixated on how to best be self reliant

That goes against what 4e was designed for. But good luck with that.

[lisiecki]

That goes against what 4e was designed for. But good luck with that.

Oh, I know
And ill most likey end up building another paladin or cleric, as i like paying "supporting" characters.
But hey, a person can dream about destroying the gobbo hoards right?

[Kurald Galain]

Oh, I know
And ill most likey end up building another paladin or cleric, as i like paying "supporting" characters.

Well, the problem is that the goal of "playing supporting characters" is in direct conflict with the goal of "being self-reliant and killing things".

The former is best represented as a Leader or Defender, the latter as a Striker or Controller. So your best bet is a class that has a little bit of both, e.g. a fighter (who is defender with striker-ish tendencies).

That said, 4E really is a team game. Even a heavy-damage rogue can't one-shot a lowly goblin with his sneak attack. That said, rogues are good for slaughter (make your DM ask, you did how much damage?!).

Build: brutal rogue + dex-boosting race + ranger MC feat for extra damage + dagger.

[Charity]

I'll echo the others with the sentiment, and then go ahead and suggest a Dwarven battlerager fighter with big STR and CON with WIS tertiary and Dwarf Stoneblood as a feat... thats about as unkillable as I can think of at first level, infact throughout heroic they are pretty robust.

[Artanis]

I played my first game of 4th ed last night.
My paladin got separated from the group and repeatedly destroyed by gobbo's
Now im fixated on how to best be self reliant and kill things.
The game is 1st level, all the 1st and 3rd party books, web updates, ect are fair game.
The only house rule is that its 22 point buy, but all starts start at 10 for free.

Whats the best build for slaughter at 1st level
Class
Race
Powers
Toys

Help me kill them all!

thanks

In addition to what the others have said, killing things is the job of a Striker. A class of another role will be worse at it (with the exception of Controllers vs. Minions). So if you want to kill things, you need either a Striker (Rogue, Ranger, or Warlock) or a half-Striker (Fighter).


I know it's been said already, but it cannot be stated enough that in order not to get killed, your best course of action is to avoid getting seperated from your teammates.

[LibraryOgre]

For a self-reliant, kill things build, I would suggest a Halfling Rogue. You're not actually going to want to focus on the kill things part of your build... you'll want to focus on the "Survive to kill more things."

Your trained skills should be Acrobatics, Bluff, Insight, Perception, Stealth, and Thievery.

A good opening feat is "Escape Artist", since it allows you to escape a grapple as a minor action (so up to three attempts a round). You might want to consider becoming a Fey Warlock Initiate... the single power, Eyebite, is useful for quickly getting out of trouble (by blinding one enemy), and you can use that to escape or kill. Plus, you get a skill, which doesn't hurt.

As a halfling, you'll get a bonus against attacks of opportunity (meaning you can move), and can use your halfling ability to cancel a critical every encounter. I suggest the Artful Dodger option, with a good Dex and Cha; a point of Str bonus won't hurt.

For gear, you've got two routes. One is to have a magic short sword and a magic shuriken; that allows you to use both ranged and melee attacks at 1D6 damage. The other is a single magic dagger, which allows you to have a +1 to hit (in addition to other bonuses), but only do 1D4 for all of your attacks. Given the fine balance of things, you might get more mileage out of the +1 to hit.

For 1st level powers, I suggest Piercing Strike, Sly Flourish, Fox's Gambit (out of Martial Power) and Blinding Barrage (also, I think, out of Martial Power).

[Oracle_Hunter]

So, taking something from Martial Powers is going to allow you to make the most awesome character. I don't have the book, but Battlerager sounds good.

But from Core, I'd suggest either an Elven Bow Ranger or a Half-Elf Infernal Warlock. Missile attacks are generally less scary than melee attacks at low level, and Rangers & Warlocks don't need anyone else to deal extra damage. Obviously if you have a reliable flanker, the Halfling Rogue is optimal for killing things quickly.

The Elven Ranger has a Dex bonus, can use Longbows, has a move of 7, and a bonus to WIS & Perception. Wearing Hide, you should have a AC of 17 (not bad for 1st level), attack at +6, and be able to notice ambushes and traps (Passive Perception of 20 is a nice start. Focus for the 23 and you'll get most 1st level traps without looking).

The Half-Elf Infernal Warlock gets access to lots of Temporary HP, High real HP, high-damage powers, and Human Feats (like Human Perseverance). With Shadow Walk you'll have an effective AC of 16 which can easily be enhanced with a Light Shield and Hide Armor (and possibly up to Scale, if you don't want to pump INT).

[skywalker]

That said, 4E really is a team game. Even a heavy-damage rogue can't one-shot a lowly goblin with his sneak attack. That said, rogues are good for slaughter (make your DM ask, you did how much damage?!).

Build: brutal rogue + dex-boosting race + ranger MC feat for extra damage + dagger.

Rogues are good for slaughter only within the team context. For solo slaughter(TM) you want a 2-weapon ranger. And no, they're still not going to stand up to the hoards, but I find that they reliably do the most damage, due to quarry and twin strike. I've seen all 3 classes in a variety of situations, and the ranger kills things. Rapidly and with extreme prejudice. It's not even a little bit close. The poor rogue is nothing without a flanker, especially at level 1. And the warlock dabbles too much in control/debuffing. The ranger (especially TWF) is a pure killing machine. And toughness gives them a lot more survivability than people might think.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Rogues are good for slaughter only within the team context. For solo slaughter(TM) you want a 2-weapon ranger. And no, they're still not going to stand up to the hoards, but I find that they reliably do the most damage, due to quarry and twin strike. I've seen all 3 classes in a variety of situations, and the ranger kills things. Rapidly and with extreme prejudice. It's not even a little bit close. The poor rogue is nothing without a flanker, especially at level 1. And the warlock dabbles too much in control/debuffing. The ranger (especially TWF) is a pure killing machine. And toughness gives them a lot more survivability than people might think.

Ranger Debate Mode Engaged!

Why choose the TWF Ranger? Here's why I say Elven Bow Ranger:
(1) Range

Spoiler

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Most of the low Heroic monsters are deadliest at either Close or Melee range; several don't even have a ranged attack to speak of. A TWF Ranger is always going to be within range of at least one monster, and because he can't move away that easily (OAs are no fun) he's going to be exposed to a lot of attacks.

A Bow Ranger is already going to be attacking from a distance - up to 20 squares away, in fact - and even monsters with ranged attacks are unlikely to be able to hit you from anywhere farther than 10 squares away. With a Move of 7 you'll be able to outpace anyone who comes near you, and you won't even lose lethality by running away.

(2) Feat & Stat Efficiency

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A TWF Ranger needs at least one feat (Bastard Sword proficiency, Dwarven/Eladrin training) to achieve optimal damage output. A Bow Ranger is already there with his Longbow.

A TWF Ranger needs to constantly boost DEX to maintain his AC (unless he spends a bunch of feats to get Scale Proficiency). Between that and boosting STR he won't have a lot of spare boosts available for WIS (ranger secondary stat) or CON (for Hide Specialization and HP). A Bow Ranger need only worry about DEX; he can use his second boost on anything he wants.

Now, I haven't crunched the numbers, but I suspect that at low Heroic the power selection doesn't favor TWF over Bow so greatly that it outweighs these advantages.

[Hal]

For gear, you've got two routes. One is to have a magic short sword and a magic shuriken; that allows you to use both ranged and melee attacks at 1D6 damage. The other is a single magic dagger, which allows you to have a +1 to hit (in addition to other bonuses), but only do 1D4 for all of your attacks. Given the fine balance of things, you might get more mileage out of the +1 to hit.

Martial Power has Two-Fisted Shooter, which lets Rogues treat hand crossbows as off-hand weapons. It might be easier to do a crossbow/short sword combo, as those shurikens will go away, but the crossbow won't. Since it gives you an extra attack on a critical hit, it does boost damage slightly as well.

[LibraryOgre]

Martial Power has Two-Fisted Shooter, which lets Rogues treat hand crossbows as off-hand weapons. It might be easier to do a crossbow/short sword combo, as those shurikens will go away, but the crossbow won't. Since it gives you an extra attack on a critical hit, it does boost damage slightly as well.

Eh, while I can't speak to the hand crossbow thing, once you have a magic shuriken, it doesn't really matter. You can use it in a burst power and hit everyone with a single magic shuriken. The real downside is that you have to invest in multiple magic weapons.

[Shadow_Elf]

Here's something that might help you survive. I've tried this, and it makes you rather survivable on your own. If anything is fair game, then you'd best go with Githyanki for this.

Race: Githyanki, which gives you +2 INT, +2 CON and some sick Teleportation.
Class: Wizard
Build: Max INT (get 18 in it) and take as much CON as possible afterwards. Make sure you have at least +1 Wis modifier though.
Take Staff of Defence Implement Mastery.
Now take a Defensive Staff (Adventurer's Vault) that allows Staff of Defence to apply to all your defences.
Take Thunderwave, and your choice of Ray of Frost or Scorching Burst. Ray of Frost is probably better for your intentions.
Take Chill Strike.
Take Sleep + Flaming Sphere.
Take Shield + Expeditious Retreat.

Now watch your DM cry as he hits you with the Goblin Skullcleaver... only for you to activate Shield / Staff of Defence to interrupt it. My DM has actually stopped telling me opponents' attack rolls to nerf Shield and Staff of Defence.

Feats (order of priority):
Armour Proficiency: Leather - Free AC for one feat? Sign me up!
Toughness - If you want to survive, you'll need some HP.
Improved Initiative - Gives you the time you need to set yourself up in a nice cozy corner.
Multiclass Warlord - Some extra healing is nice for when you Cleric/Warlord/Bard can reach you or has bigger fish to fry.
Durability - Lets you get healed more by yourself (MC Warlord) and allies. Always helpful.
Wintertouched - Not much of a priority until Paragon Tier (when you can take Wintertouched + Lasting Frost + Defensive Advantage for free defences).

Strategy: Blast from your own little corner. If bad guys come and get you, Shield/SoD, Thunderwave and disengage. Rinse and Repeat. You can also use Ray of Frost to slow guys down and keep them off your tail.

[Asbestos]

Elf (or Bladeling) Beastmaster Ranger, Lizard, Bow.

Elf or Bladeling simply because of the stats. Elves are quicker and can shift into difficult terrain (which is darn useful) and elven accuracy is nothing to sneeze at. Being able to impale everyone around you as a minor action is nothing to sneeze at either, great for minions, and when upgraded... great for everyone.

Beastmaster ranger because you'll never have to be alone, even when you're separated from the party. Lizard because its higher AC and bonus to OAs makes it more of a pseudo fighter than the other choices, it should be since its got stats for the soldier role pretty much. Now, grab a bow and take nothing but ranged ranger powers. Shoot people up, use the lizard as your own personal bodyguard.

@Shadow Elf: Yanki don't teleport, they fly... big difference is that one might provoke some OAs (still a good build)

[Colmarr]

One of the biggest hitters in our 4e party is in fact the Dwarf Fighter.

At level 3, he critted with Crushing Blow last session for 42 points of damage.

As if that weren't enough, his current AC is 22 and he's shrugging off something like 60-80% of attacks directed at his AC. And when he does get hit, he has 45 hit points to get through and can Second Wind as a minor action.

I don't think my cleric has needed to heal him at all in the last 2 sessions.

The little bugger is a DM's worst nightmare.

[Oracle_Hunter]

One of the biggest hitters in our 4e party is in fact the Dwarf Fighter.

At level 3, he critted with Crushing Blow last session for 42 points of damage.

As if that weren't enough, his current AC is 22 and he's shrugging off something like 60-80% of attacks directed at his AC. And when he does get hit, he has 45 hit points to get through and can Second Wind as a minor action.

I don't think my cleric has needed to heal him at all in the last 2 sessions.

The little bugger is a DM's worst nightmare.

Jeez, what's the level on those magic items?

I don't have MP, but a Magic Weapon +2 is LV 6 and most of the other ones are LV 8-10. Having one at LV 3 is going to be a huge advantage.

That said, Dwarves are very tanky. The Dwarven Paladin is extra fun because he never runs out of Healing Surges and can spend them with ease. Martyr's Strike is also nice to have around

[Colmarr]

Jeez, what's the level on those magic items?

I don't have MP, but a Magic Weapon +2 is LV 6 and most of the other ones are LV 8-10. Having one at LV 3 is going to be a huge advantage.

It tells you the level right there on the item card on page 4

The Dynamic waraxe is level 6, and the Dwarven plate is level 2. Both are RAW legal equipment found during the course of adventuring. The plate was a "level +1" item at level 1, and the axe was a "level+4" item at level 2.

Yes the +2 enchancement on the axe helps, but even if it were only +1, his Crushing Blow Crit would still have been 37.5 hit points, and all of the other points still stand.

[lisiecki]

Wow...
Wow...
Wow...
There is a lot of beauty in this thread.
I thought that i would calm down and make another cleric/paladin but, theirs alot of beauty.

Lucky for me, my ability to go through a character a session will allow me to try out most of these...

[Kurald Galain]

One of the biggest hitters in our 4e party is in fact the Dwarf Fighter.

Oh yeah speaking of which, I believe paladins (of some particular deity) get a Channel Divinity that lets them automatically crit 1/encounter. Ouch.

[Charity]

Oh yeah speaking of which, I believe paladins (of some particular deity) get a Channel Divinity that lets them automatically crit 1/encounter. Ouch.

I've not noticed that one... do you know what it's called?
With the right magic weapon, that could be very impressive.

[Asbestos]

I've not noticed that one... do you know what it's called?
With the right magic weapon, that could be very impressive.

Righteous Rage of Tempus, in the FRPG

[Oracle_Hunter]

Righteous Rage of Tempus, in the FRPG

Well, that's not overpowered. I mean, it's not like that's a 12th Level Paragon Power or anything*

Stupid FRPG.

*It is - Divine Oracle to be precise; an already overpowered PP.

[Colmarr]

Well, that's not overpowered.

Be careful of accepting summarised information on the intarweb

RRoT:

1. Counts as your encounter use of channel divinity (so no Divine Fortune or Turn Undead for clerics, and no whatever-the-equivalent-is for Paladins).

2. Is a minor action.

3. Turns your next hit before the end of your next turn into a critical. If you don't hit, the action and the channel divinity use is wasted.

It's a very nice feat and very fitting for the Lord of Battle, but it's nowhere near as overpowered as a one line summary suggests.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Be careful of accepting summarised information on the inarweb

RRoT:

1. Counts as your encounter use of channel divinity (so no Divine Fortune or Turn Undead for clerics, and no whatever-the-equivalent is for Paladins).

2. Is a minor action.

3. Turns your next hit before the end of your next turn into a critical. If you don't hit, the action and the channel divinity use is wasted.

It's a very nice feat and very fitting for the Lord of Battle, but it's nowhere near as overpowered as a one line summary suggests.

It is also exactly the same as the 11th level Divine Oracle power "Prophecy of Doom." The only difference is that it cannot be used on someone else - which isn't a Tier-altering change

Compare:

Spoiler

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Encounter ✦ Divine
Standard Action Ranged 5
Target: One creature
Effect: You or an ally who hits the target with an attack can choose to make the attack a critical hit. This power lasts until the end of your next turn or until you or an ally uses it to make an attack a critical hit.

[Kurald Galain]

1. Counts as your encounter use of channel divinity (so no Divine Fortune or Turn Undead for clerics, and no whatever-the-equivalent-is for Paladins).

Yes, except that divine fortune plainly sucks, and turn undead is highly situational.

3. Turns your next hit before the end of your next turn into a critical. If you don't hit, the action and the channel divinity use is wasted.

(edit) upon closer reading, it only works on your next attack, IF that attack hits, not on "your next attack that hits". That's better. Still, combined with Elven Reroll or a TacLord, odds are pretty good. And you can do this every encounter.

Now, take a fullblade (+3, 1d12, high crit) and a few extra dice from being magical, and make the striker jealous.

[Theodoric]

That's better. Still, combined with Elven Reroll or a TacLord, odds are pretty good. And you can do this every encounter.

Now, take a fullblade (+3, 1d12, high crit) and a few extra dice from being magical, and make the striker jealous.

Genasi Taclords with fullblades are really, really nasty.

[Colmarr]

It is also exactly the same as the 11th level Divine Oracle power "Prophecy of Doom."

It is far from "exactly the same". It has a cost in terms of other powers you can use (no divine fortune and/or turn undead in that encounter), and you only get one chance to use it (your next attack).

Conversely, when using Prophecy of Doom, your party gets up to 10 chances to activate the effect (1 attack each and 1 AP extra attack each); 2 per PC until someone hits and chooses to convert their hit into a crit.

Whether those differences justify a tier change, who knows?

Yes, except that divine fortune plainly sucks, and turn undead is highly situational.

Eye of the Beholder. I frankly love Divine Fortune. What's not to love about a free action +1 to hit (the same bonus as Student of the Sword) or a free action +1 to a saving throw?

The irony of RRoT is that once you have the feat, you REALLY want to be able to use Divine Fortune to boost your chances of hitting and activating RRoT.

[Oracle_Hunter]

It is far from "exactly the same". It has a cost in terms of other powers you can use (no divine fortune and/or turn undead in that encounter), and you only get one chance to use it (your next attack).

Right. I'll bold the important parts.

Encounter ✦ Divine
Standard Action Ranged 5
Target: One creature
Effect: You or an ally who hits the target with an attack can choose to make the attack a critical hit. This power lasts until the end of your next turn or until you or an ally uses it to make an attack a critical hit.

You get to use this as a Standard Action (not an Immediate Action) on one creature. The power lasts for one attack or until the end of your next turn.

It is nearly identical to the Feat. If I had the chance to take a Feat at level 1 to gain access to a level 12 power, I would take it; it's a no brainer.

Having to trade out a +1 to hit for a crit? A fair trade if I've ever heard one. And if a Paladin is going to worry about hitting when they have access to a fair number of Weapon v. NAD attacks, well, I don't know what to say

No. This is a ridiculous example of Codex Creep. Tier Jumping powers are about as clear a case as you can find.

[Colmarr]

The power lasts for one attack or until the end of your next turn.

Incorrect. Prophecy of Doom lasts until the end of the Oracle's next turn or until someone uses it to turn a hit into a crit. The durations are not even close to the same.

Having to trade out a +1 to hit for a crit?

I assume you mean "trade out a +1 to hit for a single chance to convert a hit into a crit, if I hit".

No. This is a ridiculous example of Codex Creep. Tier Jumping powers are about as clear a case as you can find.

Although the higher action cost (Standard vs Minor) is a big factor, the ability to give the crit to another party member is IMO a massive consideration. It means that the fighter gets a chance at an auto-crit on his 7[W] daily, and the rogue gets a chance to auto-maximise all those sneak attack dice. 2 chances, in fact (as explained above).

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Artanis]

It is nearly identical to the Feat. If I had the chance to take a Feat at level 1 to gain access to a level 12 power, I would take it; it's a no brainer.

Having to trade out a +1 to hit for a crit? A fair trade if I've ever heard one. And if a Paladin is going to worry about hitting when they have access to a fair number of Weapon v. NAD attacks, well, I don't know what to say

No. This is a ridiculous example of Codex Creep. Tier Jumping powers are about as clear a case as you can find.

But it's not nearly identical. At most they're vaguely similar.

Righteous Rage of Tempus gives you one chance, and one chance only. And it has to be you. And it can only be a weapon attack. You get one attack, and if and only if that attack hits the target it becomes a critical hit.

Prophecy of Doom makes somebody's attack from the entire party into a crit. No weapon-only restriction. No using up a Channel Divinity. No wasting it on critting crappy Paladin damage instead of the 7[w] damage powers that heavy hitters get. No waste of a power if the next attack misses.

I fail to see how the two are even remotely close to the same level of power.