[3.5]DM/Adventure stopping me from learning new spells. :(

[Caeldrim]

Hi gang,

My DM is making it a real headache for me to learn any new spells. I'm an 8th level wizard, and I have precisely the number of spells in my book granted by the '2 per new spell level' rule.

No opportunities to buy arcane scrolls in stores, a blanket ban on 'copying from other wizards' books' - even for a fee - and no scrolls turning up as treasure.

Even if I did have these opportunities, there's never any time between the action for me to actually do the scribing time.

Ideas for a workaround? Ideas for good 'polite' ways to present the argument to my DM that I should be able to learn more spells?

At the moment I kind of feel like a sorcerer that doesn't get spontaneous casting.

[Rei_Jin]

Well, its one of those things that can suck as a Wizard. I've not encountered a situation where I had no scrolls available to buy, but what I'd do is look to take advantage of the situation, and corner the market on scrolls for sale.

Start making scrolls, and offer them for sale. If the buyer is a wizard, offer them an exchange for a spell you don't have.

Alternatively, get in touch with the local School of Magic or Guild of Mages. They should have wizards there who can help. I mean, it's a bonus feat that all Wizards get, why would they not be using it?

If your DM won't let either of these things fly, I'd recommend looking into the Mage of the Arcane Order Prestige Class. It gives you some more flexibility, and will add two more spells to your known list when you get to levels 5 and 8 (1 at each point)

If he won't go with that, then hit him over the head with a shovel ask him why he won't allow you to learn more spells, and try to negotiate with him. If he won't budge, ask to play a Sorceror instead.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Get shadow conjuration/evocation for efficiency.

[Prometheus]

If you were overshadowing the other party members, and/or your DM had the perception that wizards were ridiculously unbalanced compared to sorcerers to begin with, than it is likely that the DM nerfed you, and you directly. If that's what is going on, you could a) say you will behave if he gives you his spells back b) offer to roll up a new character or c) suggest an alternative nerf that lets you keep your variety of spells. On that last note, perhaps find a Prc that makes you lose spellcasting progression and deadvances your power or perhaps you could craft enough items for your fellow teamates that you are a level or two behind the rest (and they are magically enhanced). If your DM wants a fluff justification come up with one (we could help), but it doesn't sound like the justifications have to be particularly strong to get past him.

Alternatively, if it appears the ban on spells is temporary or work-around-able, than he really just wants to challenge you for a little bit. It sounds pretty much like a fiat and not something you can work around (although should be able to).

[Mushroom Ninja]

Oh yeah, and if you're a gnome, go shadowcraft mage.

[Grail]

IME as a player and DM, wizards who dump their charisma have more of a problem getting new spells than those that don't. It's easier to encourage another wizard to exchange spells with you if you're not a foul-mouthed, uncouth, unwashed buffoon.

If you do have a high Charisma, start trying to encourage the DM through the game mechanics.

If he is just being intransigent, then there's not much you can do. Just play a sorcerer instead.

[Caeldrim]

I don't think the DM is trying to nerf me at all, since I haven't had many major chances to 'shine' so far.

His justification for the 'no copying from other people's books' ruling is that wizards spend years of effort and research gaining this knowledge, so they're not going to just give it up for a few GP. I'm ok with this, as long as i can get new spells from SOMEWHERE.

I suspect it's more that he hasn't DM'd for a wizard before, and doesn't quite get that it's a bit of a convention that wizards should have access to a broad range of different spells.

I'm a whisper gnome. What book is shadowcraft mage from? Sounds tasty.

edit: Charisma score 13, so it's not a dump stat. I like the idea of using my cross-class ranks in diplomacy etc to try and convince some people to teach me some new stuff. Thanks!

[Mushroom Ninja]

I'm a whisper gnome. What book is shadowcraft mage from? Sounds tasty.

edit: Charisma score 13, so it's not a dump stat. I like the idea of using my cross-class ranks in diplomacy etc to try and convince some people to teach me some new stuff. Thanks!

Races of Stone.

[NeoVid]

I'm a whisper gnome. What book is shadowcraft mage from? Sounds tasty.

I believe it's from Races of Stone, the same book as the whisper gnome. Since you clearly have access to the right book, look it up now. Shadowcraft Mage is epic win.

Considering there's an entire handbook on the WotC boards of how to make The Killer Gnome using that class, you will not be disappointed with what it can do.

[Myou]

There are feats that add your Int mod to spells learnt per level, one is Spellbook Mastery from Ultimate Feats is one.

[The Neoclassic]

His justification for the 'no copying from other people's books' ruling is that wizards spend years of effort and research gaining this knowledge, so they're not going to just give it up for a few GP. I'm ok with this, as long as i can get new spells from SOMEWHERE.

I suspect it's more that he hasn't DM'd for a wizard before, and doesn't quite get that it's a bit of a convention that wizards should have access to a broad range of different spells.

Yeah, I'd say that's reasonable. The latter part that is. The former? Well, most areas have some sort of friendly organization for wizards to congregate and exchange knowledge. Heck, where did you learn your first spells from?! Nearly all wizards had a mentor or went to a college of magic; right there is at least one connection for spell-trading, unless you left on bad terms.

As a stickler about realism, I'd also like to point out that letting you magically get two new spells out of thin air (where's wizard dear learning that from?) is more unrealistic than occasionally running into friendly wizards who are up to exchanging spells. At least for payment or maybe a short side-quest-type favor! OK, you'll need to put that to him more sweetly, but you see the point: His realism angle is not entirely justified (though nice effort- more than many DMs put in, I admit).

So, yeah, I might talk to him about the solidarity which many wizards share and perhaps looking into an opportunity to join some sort of magic society or guild which would give you access to other spellbooks. Collaboration is good, even necessary, for those of your class.

[Caeldrim]

There are feats that add your Int mod to spells learnt per level, one is Spellbook Mastery from Ultimate Feats is one.

Ultimate Feats doesn't sound like a WotC book - anyone know of a similar feat from a Wizards' book?

Mage of the Arcane Order looks damn good for this purpose - but it does look like a lot of book-keeping. Anyone have any first hand experience with one?

[tyckspoon]

Ultimate Feats doesn't sound like a WotC book - anyone know of a similar feat from a Wizards' book?

There's Collegiate Wizard for an extra free two per level, and I think the Elven Generalist subsitution levels also increase your free spells per level. They're both 1st-level-only things, tho, and the Elven Generalist levels require you to be an Elf (naturally), so they're probably out of reach now.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cast Secret Page, right out of the PHB, to turn any spell in your book into any other spell you want it to be. It doesn't have to be a spell that you already know, but be sure its something that you can make the Spellcraft check to have knowledge of. Now that a new spell is in your book (and only takes one page regardless of level if you replaced a 1st level spell) you can learn it. The number of new spells you can gain is only limited by how much time you want to spend preparing and casting Secret Page. This is a very liberal interpretation of the spell, but it may be your only choice.

[Mobey_Wee]

I would try to work something out with the DM. It really seems like he's singled you out. I understand, that with all the different books that are out for 3.5, wizards can do a lot of crazy things (as can most classes), so I could see him wanting to approve certain spells, but that's easy, the library doesn't have that spell, sorry.
Unless there's a reason this place outlawed wizards or something, spells shouldn't be that hard to come by.
You are playing a wizard, not a sorcerer, you should be able to add to the spellbook, that's the point. If he won't budge, I would ask very nicely to maybe play a sorc instead, saying that you misunderstood how the wizard was to be played.

[Zeful]

He could be internet savy and have read things like the Shadow Miracle trick, the Tippy Society, Incantrix cheese, Infinite free spells, and has adjusted the setting so that the above are impossible or really freaking hard. It's not hard, requiring some small changes, that individually would go unnoticed my most players but together make wizards "unplayable" by hardcore optimization standards. The Op would have more luck spending time to research new spells rather than trying to get the NPCs to be more helpful.

[SadisticFishing]

Why wouldn't the NPCs trade? That sounds like DM... meanness to me.

Mage of the Arcane Order and spell research are good ways to deal with this, imho.

[Zeful]

Why wouldn't the NPCs trade? That sounds like DM... meanness to me.

What reason do they have to trade? After all there are only a couple of spells worth taking every level according to the optimizers. Wizards are smarter than most people, so they obviously make the optimal choice. So they should have all the spells they'll ever need. What can they get from you that would help?

[Caeldrim]

That use of Secret Page looks... cheesy at best.

I'm 90% certain he'd rule that I could only use it to make a page of 'spell x' look like a page of another spell i already know.

The DM knows well and good that I'm not trying to create some pun-pun/tippy/whatever monstrosity. I just want to be the party's swiss army knife (not even really a batman per se) and have a little more versatility. I created the character at level 5, and having never played a wizard before this one, didn't put heaps of thought into choosing my known spells, thinking i'd be able to learn new ones all over the joint.

I'm not asking for any spells that aren't in PHB or PHBII, and I'm always the first to limit myself in the name of fairness.

I don't even know if the DM realises what's happening, I think it's just more of a case of the campaign moving from one 'hurry hurry hurry' situation to another, and we don't get a lot of opportunities for 'city time'.

My character is supposed to have been working as a magical beast handler for the government of a magocracy before he joined the group, so if I can just convince the party to go 'home' for a week or so I should have no problems.

I suspect I might just have to wait until there's an appropriate 'breather' in the campaign. My only concern is that I might be waiting a long time.

[MeklorIlavator]

What reason do they have to trade? After all there are only a couple of spells worth taking every level according to the optimizers. Wizards are smarter than most people, so they obviously make the optimal choice. So they should have all the spells they'll ever need. What can they get from you that would help?

A) Strawmen arguments aren't nice.

B) There are alot of useful spells, especially if splats are allowed, so unless you take Collegiate Wizard(only available at first, doubles your spells per level) its impossible to get them all simply form your 2 per level, and even then it wouldn't be likely. Also, most of those arguments assume that you will have access to scrolls.

C) Really? Strawmen arguments?

[Noneoyabizzness]

ultimate feats is 3rd party pretty sure mongoose publishing.

the biggest issue is that the idea of "buying anything you need" is virtually a 3e mentality. you shouldnt expect the automatic capacity to buy any scroll or item you need. however the flaw of the spellbook is the theoretic balance between the wizard and the spont caster. easiest way to break it to the dm is that it makes you less useful to the party to not be able to buy/steal any spells of any other being. even just the basic rule on using other wizards books is meant to give a player a reasonable shot to learn more spells if there is no logical area for them to learn more spells. it has been since older editions. even lower level enemy book toters should be able to flesh out your spellbook. baring that if the dm somehow blocks that as being unreasonable,
edit somehow posted before finishing sentance...

then take absurd spells that make absolutely no sense. take breath weapon substitution as a 5th level spell to teach to sorcs and dragons in exchage for some other knowledge. or gutsnake.

[Zeful]

A) Strawmen arguments aren't nice.

B) There are alot of useful spells, especially if splats are allowed, so unless you take Collegiate Wizard(only available at first, doubles your spells per level) its impossible to get them all simply form your 2 per level, and even then it wouldn't be likely. Also, most of those arguments assume that you will have access to scrolls.

C) Really? Strawmen arguments?

What Stawman is this? I was responding to the thought that wizards have no reason not to trade, which depending on setting can be right, or wrong.

[Caeldrim]

@Noneoyabizzness

yeah i'm not trying to 'buy whatever i want'. I'd be happy enough if I could just say 'ok we're in a city, i go to a store that sells scrolls, what scrolls do they have on hand?' and then the DM can decide what they've got and what they don't. Simple and painless.

[esorscher]

Cast Secret Page, right out of the PHB, to turn any spell in your book into any other spell you want it to be. It doesn't have to be a spell that you already know, but be sure its something that you can make the Spellcraft check to have knowledge of. Now that a new spell is in your book (and only takes one page regardless of level if you replaced a 1st level spell) you can learn it. The number of new spells you can gain is only limited by how much time you want to spend preparing and casting Secret Page. This is a very liberal interpretation of the spell, but it may be your only choice.

Also, you could prepare a scroll of the spell you're replacing and recopy it into your spellbook.

[Thrud]

*Learning spells stuff.*

I have something pretty similar in many of my games. I have pretty much always run my games that way, as have most of the DM's I have played with. This is why I have never run into any of the problems with wizards taking over the game that are bemoaned all over the web. It might just be that he is preventing anyone from getting to the point where they will control the game simply because they are a wizard. Just because there are lots of people who play the game a different way that does not make it the 'correct' way to play. It is just another way to play. He may loosen up a bit over time, but perhaps not.

Just ask youself if you are having fun in the game. It may well be that you cannot do everything that you have read online about what wizards 'ought' to be able to do. But also ask youself whether that character would be any fun to play any more. If you aren't having fun then ask the DM if you can make a new character and play something different. If you are having fun then roll with it, try to remember being part of a team here, instead of being a one man show.

His attitude seems pretty sensible to me, but then everytime someone talks about the batman wizard it just makes me cringe in horror that any DM would ever allow that to happen in the first place.

And no I don't wish to rehash that old argument again. It has been done to death.

[Curmudgeon]

Cast Secret Page, right out of the PHB, to turn any spell in your book into any other spell you want it to be.
...
This is a very liberal interpretation of the spell, but it may be your only choice.

This is actually a nonsense interpretation of the spell.

Secret page alters the contents of a page so that they appear to be something entirely different. The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell. Explosive runes or sepia snake sigil can be cast upon the secret page.

Yes, Secret Page can be used to alter a page to show something different. There's nothing in this low-level spell that says it must create the content to fulfill your dreams. You can create the contents to show another spell -- if you know that other spell. If you don't know something you can't cause it to appear with Secret Page.

[Waspinator]

What kind of enemies does your group fight? If you ever fight another wizard, grab his book.

[Epic_Wizard]

What kind of enemies does your group fight? If you ever fight another wizard, grab his book.

Yeah this is a common way to make the party Wizard happy. Just stuff a spell book as treasure in with some other stuff. With high level spells the value can add up pretty fast and since no one else needs and or wants it the Wizard takes that as his share of the loot.

Talk to your DM about this as a possibility and give him a short list of spells that you would like to have access to and he can pick which ones to give you as treasure.

[Kurald Galain]

Mage of the Arcane Order

I was about to suggest that, too.

[Roderick_BR]

I don't think the DM is trying to nerf me at all, since I haven't had many major chances to 'shine' so far.

His justification for the 'no copying from other people's books' ruling is that wizards spend years of effort and research gaining this knowledge, so they're not going to just give it up for a few GP. I'm ok with this, as long as i can get new spells from SOMEWHERE.

I suspect it's more that he hasn't DM'd for a wizard before, and doesn't quite get that it's a bit of a convention that wizards should have access to a broad range of different spells.

I'm a whisper gnome. What book is shadowcraft mage from? Sounds tasty.

edit: Charisma score 13, so it's not a dump stat. I like the idea of using my cross-class ranks in diplomacy etc to try and convince some people to teach me some new stuff. Thanks!

Ask him how all those wizards in official WotC timeline get spells then, since the core books suggests that you could make business with other wizards to learn new spells. Other than that, do as people say, ask him why he is forbiddng you from getting more spells, cause that's just nerfing you unjustly.