A Modest Proposal (3.5)

[Flickerdart]

Premise the first: Improved Sunder is terrible, as it blows up your own loot before you have a chance to get your grubby hands on it and pawn it to the guy in the alleyway for cash.
Premise the second: Truenamers are terrible, as they can't do anything without considerable optimization (and even then, Utterances leave much to be desired).
Premise the third: The Truenamer Optimization Guide shows how Truenamers can actually make moderately effective Gishes.

Proposal: Combining the third-level Utterance of the Crafted Tool Rebuild Item (which restores magical properties to said item, unlike the spell Make Whole) with Improved Sunder, we smash our enemies' weapons from their hands, Rebuild them on the next turn and wail on them with their own swords. Moderately better than Disarm (which would otherwise let them pick their sword right back up) and significantly more hilarious.

Now, to access Rebuild Item, you need to be an 11th level Truenamer, giving you BAB +8, a d6 hit die, 4+INT skill points and a crippling dependency on Intelligence to even survive this long, which gives you even more skill points. Dipping Swashbuckler 3 (and continuing to advance Truespeak, since it becomes a class skill for anything else you ever take) nets us INT to damage, which is helpful. Faerie Mysteries Initiate grants INT to HP, which makes us not die.

And yes, I know it's not optimal, but it gives the much-needed love to two hated-on choices. So...optimize this aberration! Preferably making it playable to 20. Maybe do Gestalt so you can get the Swashbuckler levels earlier on. We might also want Exotic proficiencies when the DM tries to mess with us, so 1 level of that PrC with masks to grab the Gladiator mask might be worth it. What else?

[monty]

You disappoint me. I was expecting something about eating babies.

[Signmaker]

You disappoint me. I was expecting something about eating babies.

Agreed. I was expecting a paladin alignment conundrum revolving around babies and the economy.

[Raum]

You disappoint me. I was expecting something about eating babies.

Agreed. Or at least some satire!

[AslanCross]

This gives new meaning to "baby back ribs" and "kiddie meal."

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Premise the first: Improved Sunder is terrible, as it blows up your own loot before you have a chance to get your grubby hands on it and pawn it to the guy in the alleyway for cash.
Premise the second: Truenamers are terrible, as they can't do anything without considerable optimization (and even then, Utterances leave much to be desired).
Premise the third: The Truenamer Optimization Guide shows how Truenamers can actually make moderately effective Gishes.

Proposal: Combining the third-level Utterance of the Crafted Tool Rebuild Item (which restores magical properties to said item, unlike the spell Make Whole) with Improved Sunder, we smash our enemies' weapons from their hands, Rebuild them on the next turn and wail on them with their own swords. Moderately better than Disarm (which would otherwise let them pick their sword right back up) and significantly more hilarious.

Now, to access Rebuild Item, you need to be an 11th level Truenamer, giving you BAB +8, a d6 hit die, 4+INT skill points and a crippling dependency on Intelligence to even survive this long, which gives you even more skill points. Dipping Swashbuckler 3 (and continuing to advance Truespeak, since it becomes a class skill for anything else you ever take) nets us INT to damage, which is helpful. Faerie Mysteries Initiate grants INT to HP, which makes us not die.

And yes, I know it's not optimal, but it gives the much-needed love to two hated-on choices. So...optimize this aberration! Preferably making it playable to 20. Maybe do Gestalt so you can get the Swashbuckler levels earlier on. We might also want Exotic proficiencies when the DM tries to mess with us, so 1 level of that PrC with masks to grab the Gladiator mask might be worth it. What else?

You've got a good start on things. However, you need to do more than simply break stuff and put it back together. You also need to be effective at doing something else. With your Int, you could be a decent "What is that" guy, but more importantly, you need to find ways to be able to do party buffs.

May I suggest Warlock as a dip? Baleful Utterance = Shatter at will. Shatter >> Sunder. Also, with a 4 level dip in Warlock, you get:
Two other Least invocations besides Baleful Utterance
Take 10 on UMD checks
2d6 Ranged Touch Attack

[Flickerdart]

Agreed. Or at least some satire!

Yeah, I know, the title was misleading. However, baby-eating paladins aren't as good at breaking stuff.

Shneekey, that's a great suggestion. Truenamer has plenty of buffs, plus healing powers. Being "useful in other ways" isn't going to be a problem, but if we're going after Baleful Utterance (heh...Utterance...like the Truenamer) we won't be able to actually do anything for a long while. Now, it's true that Rebuild doesn't actually become available until 11, but do we really want to put it off for so long as is? Looks like we're going Gestalt.

Truenamer 11//Factotum 1/Warlock 4/Swashbuckler 3/Master of Masks 1/LA or RHD 2? We could pay off some nice race with that. Do any give +STR and +INT at the same time?

[Kurald Galain]

Baleful Utterance = Shatter at will. Shatter >> Sunder.

Shatter doesn't work on magical items.

[Flickerdart]

Oh? Well, that'll teach me not to look things up. We've got 4 levels free, then.

[Fax Celestis]

Karsite could be good. Sure, you have blue eyes, but you have SR and a Cha bonus. It's not Str/Int, but for an LA +1, it'd give you something against casters.

Alternatively, the LA +2 Half-Fae would be +Cha also, but would give a repertoire of SLAs (inc. charm person at will), wings, and immunity to enchantment.

Dark, at LA +1, would give you HiPS, so you could sneak up, sunder, and then hide.

[Flickerdart]

Dark, at LA +1, would give you HiPS, so you could sneak up, sunder, and then hide.

I like that. They won't even realize their broken stuff is being rebuilt and hidden away. That d6 hit die won't have much staying power in combat, and we don't have any armour proficiencies beyond Light...

[Prometheus]

Woah, Deja vu!

[chiasaur11]

Agreed. I was expecting a paladin alignment conundrum revolving around babies and the economy.

Can Paladins eat evil babies?

If not, can they use evil babies to feed hungry townsfolk?

[TheCountAlucard]

Can Paladins eat evil babies?

Against the Unholy Scion from Heroes of Horror, they have to. It's like, an unwritten rule, or something...

[Inyssius Tor]

Can Paladins eat evil babies?

Nuh uh, since two wrongs don't make a right. Those babies aren't doing anything wrong.

If not, can they use evil babies to feed hungry townsfolk?

Actually, this might be a "yes" if the townsfolk will die of hunger.

[Flickerdart]

Woah, Deja vu!

I'm bad at thread titles, sue me.

[esorscher]

Yeah, I know, the title was misleading. However, baby-eating paladins aren't as good at breaking stuff.

Except baby's bones when they eat them.

[Douglas]

I'm bad at thread titles, sue me.

Ok. My lawyer will be contacting you shortly.

[Deepblue706]

I like that. They won't even realize their broken stuff is being rebuilt and hidden away. That d6 hit die won't have much staying power in combat, and we don't have any armour proficiencies beyond Light...

Ah, but if you properly sunder, then your enemies can only retort with their fists, anyhow! Well, usually.

I'd suggest obtaining a method of escaping grapples, however. You can considerably limit a Cloud Giant's ability to smash things by sundering his gargantuan morningstar, but he might just try to pluck you up off of the ground with a +32 modifier.

Then again, I suppose simply having companions will make that option poor enough for him.

[Arros Winhadren]

What about Marshal? Don't they have some sort of bonus to Sunder attempts and bonuses to Int and Str skill checks? Or is it only Trip and Grapple bonuses that they get? Now I'm not sure, but I bet Marshal has something for you.

[FoE]

This thread would like to make you think it's against baby-eating. But Flickerdart has never gone on the record that he isn't. Maybe he's too busy eating babies!

[chiasaur11]

This thread would like to make you think it's against baby-eating. But Flickerdart has never gone on the record that he isn't. Maybe he's too busy eating babies!

Who isn't, in these troublesome economic times?

[Jothki]

Is there any real need for the repairer and the sunderer to be the same person?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Shatter doesn't work on magical items.

Wrong

Used as an area attack, shatter destroys nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain. All such objects within a 5-foot radius of the point of origin are smashed into dozens of pieces by the spell. Objects weighing more than 1 pound per your level are not affected, but all other objects of the appropriate composition are shattered.

Used as an area effect, no it does not. But...

Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level. Targeted against a crystalline creature (of any weight), shatter deals 1d6 points of sonic damage per caster level (maximum 10d6), with a Fortitude save for half damage.

There is NO mention about nonmagical for a single object, weighing up to 10 lbs/lvl.

Text > Table. Have a nice day.

You can go Lock1/Truenamer11/Lock3 for a total Warlock of 4 at level 15, but be able to shatter from level 1.

[Arros Winhadren]

There is NO mention about nonmagical for a single object, weighing up to 10 lbs/lvl.

Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, nonmagical objects; sunders a single solid, nonmagical object; or damages a crystalline creature.

That's some selective reading you've got there.

Edit: The spell is worded weirdly though, so I can see interpreting the lower paragraph as not discriminating between magic/nonmagic items. Hilariously, it appears that hollow items cannot be shattered. So much for containers.

[Tengu_temp]

Nuh uh, since two wrongs don't make a right. Those babies aren't doing anything wrong.

They had to perform some evil deeds to be evil. The only creatures who can be inherently good or evil are outsiders.

[TheCountAlucard]

They had to perform some evil deeds to be evil. The only creatures who can be inherently good or evil are outsiders.

Careful there; you're treading onto alignment argument territory! While I'm okay with your opinion, it's likely that someone else isn't...

[Inyssius Tor]

Careful there; you're treading onto alignment argument territory! While I'm okay with your opinion, it's likely that someone else isn't...

H'okay, let's fork this discussion. Flickerdart has an actual topic, and I bet he might like us actually talking about that instead of delicious sin babies.

ON THAT TOPIC WHICH WAS PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED SEVERAL TIMES RATHER POINTEDLY BY THE ORIGINAL POSTER: I like it. But what happens when you try to sunder a guy's sword and attack him with it ... but it turns out he can still handle himself just fine with his iron lobster claws and poison mandibles and serrated adamant carapace? WHAT THEN, SUNDER MAN?

[chiasaur11]

H'okay, let's fork this discussion. Flickerdart has an actual topic, and I bet he might like us actually talking about that instead of delicious sin babies.

ON THAT TOPIC WHICH WAS PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED SEVERAL TIMES RATHER POINTEDLY BY THE ORIGINAL POSTER: I like it. But what happens when you try to sunder a guy's sword and attack him with it ... but it turns out he can still handle himself just fine with his iron lobster claws and poison mandibles and serrated adamant carapace? WHAT THEN, SUNDER MAN?

Then you ask yourself why a guy with natural weapons a good deal better than his sword was trying to hit you with a pointy metal stick.

And you desperately try and fail at some truenaming.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Edit: The spell is worded weirdly though, so I can see interpreting the lower paragraph as not discriminating between magic/nonmagic items. Hilariously, it appears that hollow items cannot be shattered. So much for containers.

I also see no discrimination between hollow and non-hollow items. Granted, you can't do it with the AE version unless they're crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain, but there's nothing that says you can't target, for example, someone's backpack... or even their belt buckle.

If you are referring to the phrase 'single, solid object', to mean it cannot affect hollow objects, I was interpreting this to mean Solid as opposed to Liquid or Gas; or alternately, non-fragile.

Really, it's up to Rule 0, as the description can be read either way.

While it's a cool concept, I don't foresee this build being in any way effective in actual play, simply because there are so many more effective methods of nerfing opponents than shattering their weapon. I was looking into a way to be able to get a lot of Disintegrates, but a) wasn't sure if the Truenamer thing could put it back together again, and b) it would be more effective to simply target the wielder rather than the weapon.