3.5: Bards?

[shadow_archmagi]

So... is it just me or is the bardly part of being a bard sort of... weak?

A limited number of times per day, he can provide...

An extra save
Fascinate (which is incredibly easy to break)
A +1 to hit and damage
A +2 to a skill check.

And this is what a bard has up until level six, when he gets Suggestion.


Where precisely does the Bard become a fun and interesting class? One of my newbie players has expressed interest in it after I realized that spellthief (one side of their level 5 gestalt, the other part is Swordsage) was going to be absolutely useless in this campaign and offered to let them reclass. The only other party member is a fighter/psion who plans on going elemental warrior/pyrokineticist.

I'd hate to see the poor guy get stuck with a crummy class AGAIN; please inform me of either how/why the bard is good, or how/why to make him good, or just a decent replacement.

[Hylianbunny]

Once you pick up Glibness.

:P

[Tacoma]

Remember that the bonuses apply to everyone in a nearby area. The Bard could run a sweatshop where he encourages higher Craft skill checks by singing ...

♫ Work, work, work your fingers 'till they bleed! ♪

Ahem.

How about he starts accumulating copies of a variant Ioun Stone that each attack as a Level 1 Fighter with the Precise Shot feat using a standard Longbow? It'd be a little magical zap. But each one would get the benefit of his area of effect buffs ...

Look at how NWN did the Bard song progression. It gets better as he levels up, much better. And he gets to choose whether the song gives AC, attack and damage, skill inspiration, or whatever at the time of activating the song.

If he focused on summoning monsters, that would improve how mnay creatures were affected by his song.

He could find other things to use the bard songs per day with. Like a curse song, or something else. You'd buy a feat and get a new use for the song.

He would probably just be happier with another class though.

[Keld Denar]

Bards only get good at combat when you go outside of core, which it sounds like you are. Inspire Courage is soooo rediculously easy to buff, its possible to have a +4/+4 song by level 3 at the earliest. 3rd level feat Song of the Heart (ECS) and cast Inspirational Boost (SC, Brd1) and afterwards activate your Badge of Valor (MIC). Blamo, +4 IC at level 3 without violating WBL or anything. The best part is, IC doesn't really take any actions to continue. The only things you can't do while performing are cast spells (circumvent with Melodic Casting (CM) and sub Perform for Concentration checks as well), sneak (take the Subsonics feat or some form of Telepathy (Mindbender1)), talk to people, and use other Bard Songs. The last two are the only ones that can't be passed, but thats why you have mutiple uses of Bardic music, multiple castings of Insp Boost, and 3 uses/day of a Badge of Valor. Plus, most of the other bard songs kinda suck. Inspire Competance is bad. Facinate is pretty circumstatial, which means Suggestion is too. Even Inspire Greatness tends to not be worth the actions it takes to start once combat breaks out, and unlike IC, can't be persisted out of combat.

Granted, the power of a Bard is related to the number of other players affected by his song, but even if it only affects the Bard + one other, with optimized IC, is worth it. You might also suggest a Bard blend, using one of the Bard multiclass feats. Devoted Performer to make a Bardadin, or Song of the White Raven (ToB) to make a Bardblade or Bardsader. All 3 are mechanically strong buids that would compliment a Spelltheif on the other side, especially a Bardblade. A build like Bard4/Warblade1//Spellthief5 would be strong, progressing Warblade and Spellthief from then on and focusing on duel wielding with Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind/Iron Heart maneuvers. Looks solid to me.

[monty]

Once you pick up Glibness.

:P

This. Also, Sublime Chord.

[sonofzeal]

Look at the number of Sorc/Wiz feats in core (metamagic, spell penetration, etc). Or Fighter feats (Weapon Focus, Combat Expertise). Or Rogue feats (TWF, Finesse, Sneaky). Or Barbarian feats (Power Attack, Improved Sunder). Or Cleric feats (Improved Turning, Extra Turning).

Now look at all the feats that are specifically appropriate for Bards. See any? Cause I sure don't.



...outside of core, Bards get decent support and can be quite effective. But in core, there really isn't anything at all. Not one feat to build on Bardic Knowledge, or Bardic Music. Fail.

[Llama231]

I usually give them more skills (not points), more proficiencies, and let them use diplomacy.

[Prometheus]

There seems to be a bit of a problem pertaining to the fact that he is one of two PCs. You could give him a full or half-progressed animal companion which would be able to take advantage of his bardic music and also help gloss over some of his weakness.

[Tempest Fennac]

Extra Music is a Core Bard feat. I've never played as one, but people have told me that they are either boring and weak or they are slightly weak but they are really fun to use. I'd only really want to use one in a large party due to their "jack of all trades" party roll.

[Friv]

In a two-player game, the advantage of the bard is that he's an arcane-casting cure-casting skillmonkey with good saves who can hold his own in a fight. He's not the best at anything, but he brings so many hats to the table that there's always something for him to do.

In a two-player gestalt game, however, this aspect is seriously reduced, because gestalting favours two classes that are at least moderately dissimilar. Because the bard's biggest strength is having no glaring weaknesses, it's not a great gestalt class.

In a larger game, bards shine by having some of the best buffs in the game (musical or spell), plus great skills, plus random knowing stuff, plus not dying when a fighter looks at them funny. They're a good choice for the group's fifth wheel in my experience (although my experience was playing mostly core + a few extras here and there, and we didn't get into heavy minmaxing).

With that in mind, I would suggest the Leadership feat if he wants to keep barding it up. A cohort plus followers can get big benefits from bardic music.

[JellyPooga]

Look at the number of Sorc/Wiz feats in core (metamagic, spell penetration, etc). Or Fighter feats (Weapon Focus, Combat Expertise). Or Rogue feats (TWF, Finesse, Sneaky). Or Barbarian feats (Power Attack, Improved Sunder). Or Cleric feats (Improved Turning, Extra Turning).

Now look at all the feats that are specifically appropriate for Bards. See any?

Yes...almost every Feat in Core is specifically appropriate for Bards (the exceptions being Improved Turning, Extra Turning, Natural Spell, Spell Mastery and the Weapon Specialisation Tree). They are supposed to the the Jack of All Trades, note the emphasis there; Bards do whatever you want them to do. A Fighter could technically take Eschew Materials or a Metamagic Feat, but it would do nothing. A Wizard could take Power Attack, but barring a peculiar build, it won't be effective. A Bard can take any Feat from Core and find it useful. That's the point of Bards (unless they wear a wizards hat, of course ).

@ the OP: The fun of Bards is that you get to be a sneaky, knowledgable, exotic weapon using, finesse fighter that can cast spells and heal the party as well as sing, dance and shout your way to buffing your mates and confusing your enemies. When you hit town, you're the only one that manages to make himself presentable for any occasion and can charm his way round the most stubborn Kings Advisor, sweet-talk the Mayors wife into getting the party some extra loot whilst seducing his daughter and stealing his family heirlooms...and that's not the half of it...

In short, Bards are cool They might not be able to do any one thing the best, but they can do a bit of everything, which is far more than can be said for any other class.

[Inyssius Tor]

In short, Bards are cool They might not be able to do any one thing the best, but they can do a bit of everything, which is far more than can be said for any other class.

Except for the Factotum, which does it better.
kidding don't hurt me

[Arcane_Snowman]

Currently, with my bard I'm using Dragonfire Inspiration to give all of the melee combatants pluses to their damage, they love me

[Simanos]

Can a gestalt Bard/Fighter (or barbarian) get Dragon Disciple Prestige Class?

[Flame of Anor]

Bards only get good at combat when you go outside of core, which it sounds like you are. Inspire Courage is soooo rediculously easy to buff, its possible to have a +4/+4 song by level 3 at the earliest. 3rd level feat Song of the Heart (ECS) and cast Inspirational Boost (SC, Brd1) and afterwards activate your Badge of Valor (MIC). Blamo, +4 IC at level 3 without violating WBL or anything. The best part is, IC doesn't really take any actions to continue. The only things you can't do while performing are cast spells (circumvent with Melodic Casting (CM) and sub Perform for Concentration checks as well), sneak (take the Subsonics feat or some form of Telepathy (Mindbender1)), talk to people, and use other Bard Songs. The last two are the only ones that can't be passed, but thats why you have mutiple uses of Bardic music, multiple castings of Insp Boost, and 3 uses/day of a Badge of Valor. Plus, most of the other bard songs kinda suck. Inspire Competance is bad. Facinate is pretty circumstatial, which means Suggestion is too. Even Inspire Greatness tends to not be worth the actions it takes to start once combat breaks out, and unlike IC, can't be persisted out of combat.

Granted, the power of a Bard is related to the number of other players affected by his song, but even if it only affects the Bard + one other, with optimized IC, is worth it. You might also suggest a Bard blend, using one of the Bard multiclass feats. Devoted Performer to make a Bardadin, or Song of the White Raven (ToB) to make a Bardblade or Bardsader. All 3 are mechanically strong buids that would compliment a Spelltheif on the other side, especially a Bardblade. A build like Bard4/Warblade1//Spellthief5 would be strong, progressing Warblade and Spellthief from then on and focusing on duel wielding with Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind/Iron Heart maneuvers. Looks solid to me.

These sound like really cool things to make a bard more powerful. I'm not getting all of the acronyms, though, could you be more explicit in your sources?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Can a gestalt Bard/Fighter (or barbarian) get Dragon Disciple Prestige Class?

Absolutely!

Bard casts arcane spells spontaniously. Bard2 is all you need for a 1st level arcane spell.

[averagejoe]

These sound like really cool things to make a bard more powerful. I'm not getting all of the acronyms, though, could you be more explicit in your sources?

You might fing this thread helpful, also stickied at the top of the Gaming (General RPG) forum.

[Keld Denar]

These sound like really cool things to make a bard more powerful. I'm not getting all of the acronyms, though, could you be more explicit in your sources?

There is a TLA (Three Letter Acronym) guide at the top of the forum, but some of the ones that I mention are:

WBL - Wealth By Level
IC - Inspire Courage, a Bards most basic and powerful combat song, IMO
ECS - Eberon Campaign Setting book
CM - Complete Mage book
DM - Dragon Magic book
ToB - Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords book
SC - Spell Compendium book
MIC - Magic Item Compendium book

You could also try googling and acronym and throwing D&D in the search line. That should come up with anything you are uncertain of.

[monty]

Except for the Factotum, which does it better.

I think the second quote in my sig is appropriate to this.

[Egiam]

What's sublime chord?

I have to share an awesome combo of mine. I am currently playing, Lyle the Magnificent, a level 9 halfling bard. What I do in the first round of combat is cast animate instrument (2nd level from Complete scoundrel) as a standard, then ispirational boost (1st, complete adventurer I think), the swift to start it playing. Combine that with the feat Song of the Heart (Eberron campaign setting) and a masterwork fiddle (complete adventurer) gives me a +4 atk and +6 on saves against fear that even I can use, cuz I freed up my hands with animate instrument. Its killer.

When you have access to non-core material and are creative, bards tock.

[Keld Denar]

What's sublime chord?

Sublime Chord is a PrC in Complete Arcane that basically turns a Bard into a full scale Sorcerer, including access to spells on the Sor/Wiz spell list up to 9th level. Take a looksie. Its considered the ultimate in caster barddom. Typical builds only include 1 level though, using other classes to progress its unique casting. IE, Bard9/Virtuoso1/SC1/Virtuoso9.

[JaxGaret]

Typical builds only include 1 level though, using other classes to progress its unique casting. IE, Bard9/Virtuoso1/SC1/Virtuoso9.

No, typical builds include 2 levels and then move on to another full casting progression PrC. Song of Arcane Power is very good to have.

[shadow_archmagi]

Thanks for all the help guys!

[Simanos]

Absolutely!

Bard casts arcane spells spontaniously. Bard2 is all you need for a 1st level arcane spell.

I was worried the gestalt thing didn't allow it. Never read up on gestalt much.
So I guess a Bard_5/Dragon_Disciple_10/Barbarian_15 would be a nice melee build. Not too bardy though :(

[Samakain]

mmm They can do so much..and yeah i can see how they can plug alot of holes in an adventuring party with the "i can do that to" thing. They have alot of potential for just about whatever you choose to do with them.

But seriously its hard to look bad arse holding a lute :P

Which is another reason to love eberron. I can have the tights wearing, lute strumming guy oooor i can have the journalist or the inquisitive? mmmm let me think.

Bards, good all rounder, but not my flavor of fun.

[PanNarrans]

You don't have to play an instrument, if that strikes you as silly. Bardic music 'can be activated by reciting poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, or playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance'.
The poetry option is the one I'm going to play with later; speaking in meter to reinforce what you say, bolstering your companions and changing reality through pure force of personality is pretty damned badass.

[Sir Giacomo]

...The only things you can't do while performing are cast spells (circumvent with Melodic Casting (CM) and sub Perform for Concentration checks as well), sneak (take the Subsonics feat or some form of Telepathy (Mindbender1)), talk to people, and use other Bard Songs. The last two are the only ones that can't be passed, but thats why you have mutiple uses of Bardic music, ....

Actually you can use other bard songs while maintaining bard songs that do not require concentration (so you can both inspire courage AND heroics, for instance). The bonuses tend to add up, the higher you go...

- Giacomo

[Thurbane]

Extra Music is a Core Bard feat.

Actually, it's not (although it should have been) - it's in Complete Adventurer.

[ericgrau]

So... is it just me or is the bardly part of being a bard sort of... weak?

A limited number of times per day, he can provide...

An extra save
Fascinate (which is incredibly easy to break)
A +1 to hit and damage
A +2 to a skill check.

And this is what a bard has up until level six, when he gets Suggestion.

Yeup, bard songs are weak. As are stat buffs in general (spells too). Unless you get some kind of prestige class to tweak them out. The trick is to use stat buffs outside of combat and when you have spare spell slots. That way you don't pay anything for them.

Bards are good b/c they have a little something useful from almost every class, which they do just as well as those classes. Bards suck when you try to use something they don't do as well as others. What they can do as well as others (semi-ordered by priority):

1. Bards can handle a great deal of secondary skillmonkeying, most of all. They have a lot of utility skills, UMD and tumble to help flank. And bardic knowledge to boot.
2. Casting: Bards have good low level battlefield control spells/AoE debuffs; the kind mages cast even when they hit high levels. And the uber non-stat buffs like haste. And illusions. They also get a couple of their own good spells like glibness and zone of silence. But don't fall into the trap of pumping charisma. Bards are not full casters so the save DCs for their spells are already low. Try spells that trigger multiple saves (AoE, long duration, etc.) or only sometimes trigger a save (e.g., illusions) or don't trigger one at all or spells that target allies or target minor NPCs (who have weak saves) as part of some cunning plan.
3. Bards can also craft many magic items as well as a full caster, since this is caster level dependent.
4. Trip via the whip. Tripping is a strength check which is not BAB dependent (except for an easy touch attack). The whip allows trips & disarms from a safe distance.
5. Bards can use low level utility scrolls as well as a mage, plus CLW wands for between battle healing as well as a cleric. In fact, tell him to not put utility/healing spells on his spells known list. Use scrolls/wands.

Another option people lean to is to prestige him out and have few actual bard levels. This is a cop-out, IMO. Or you can use other non-core feats/etc. I guess that's not a cop-out.

[graymachine]

Once you pick up Glibness.

:P

Third-ed

Seriously, the ability to, with a little effort, use any item that has an alignment restriction at mid-level, such as a Holy Avenger, is nice. Furthermore, being able to convince anyone of anything, ever, is nice. Once a bard accesses Glibness there is little reason, assuming the PC and player are moderately bright, that the bard shouldn't be running the show.