[3.5] Non-real world religious iconography in a polytheistic setting

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I apologize for introducing a potentially religiously charged topic, but I have no idea where to turn. I do not mean to offend anyone's religious beliefs, and am merely asking this question in the interest of helping create the fluff for my latest D&D character.

I'm finally going to make that paladin I asked about a while ago. My biggest problem at this moment is that I sort of want him to have a red cross on his heraldry. I got the inspiration from Spencer's epic poem The Faerie Queene, which begins with the story of Redcrosse, a young holy knight. However, we are using the standard 3.5 D&D pantheon for the game, and thus I worry that crosses would look out of place. how can I justify emblazoning my paladin's tabard and shield with a red cross if he worships Heironeous?

Note that when I say cross, I am referring to just the cross image itself, not a crucifix, which would depict the actual figure of Jesus on the cross. I just want a red cross for my heraldry, like the Knights Templar used.

[Thurbane]

This will probably get locked, but I'll say my piece first.

There's all kinds of patterns and symbols in heraldry - your character could certainly have a red cross on his livery, shield etc. without it having to have any (real world) religious connotations...

[Inyssius Tor]

If he has an order, you could make it the mark of that order.

Or what Thurbane said.

[Ryuuk]

It's a purely aesthetic choice, go for it. I'm even pretty sure I've seen red crosses on some pictures in splatbooks, think it was a worshiper of either Heironeous or St. Cuthbert.

Edit: Found it, looks like a red cross to me.

[hamishspence]

Bretonnians in the warhammer-verse use a number of thinks originally derived from real-world iconography, despite setting being polytheistic- Templar and Hospitallar -style crosses included.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

What would it symbolize, if the religious connotations were removed?

[Irreverent Fool]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the symbol/tabard/heraldry/whatever of the Knights Templar?

D&D has a templar PrC in Defenders of the Faith.

Tadaa.

Really there's no reason not to do it unless you're liable to offend someone at your table. When I think 'holy knight', that's usually what I envision as well.

Edit:

It's a purely aesthetic choice, go for it. I'm even pretty sure I've seen red crosses on some pictures in splatbooks, think it was a worshiper of either Heironeous or St. Cuthbert.

Edit: Found it, looks like a red cross to me.

That's actually St. Cuthbert's symbol. Check it out on pg 108 of the 3.5 PHB. It's basically a cross in a circle. If you need your mark to symbolize something, there you go.

obnoxious
sig

[Tsotha-lanti]

Personal/family coat of arms. It's a gules... well, a cross isn't a traditional ordinary, but there you go. Gules cross on a whatever field.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm thinking white field, but that's just me. And the Templar PrC in DotF became the Pious Templar in Complete Divine. I don't believe I'm taking that PrC though. I'm taking Ordained Champion.

[Another_Poet]

In non-christian cultures the cross is often used as a symbol of the sun (or a four-spoked or 8-spoked wheel).

For a non religious association, it could symbolise the four winds. Or, four founders of the knight's order.

You could also give it some mystical associationt of your own devising, like it represents the red start that appeared in the sky when the knight's illustrious ancestor slew the terrible demon-dragon.

Lots of choices. And, I see no reason why this thread would be locked. You're not talking about real-world religion.

[hamishspence]

Fish is another interesting icon.

[Ravens_cry]

According to Wikipedia, the cross was also a symbol of the four elements, as well as the four cardinal directions and red is a symbol of Mars, and iron, in alchemy. So this house could be heavily funding research into alchemy for war purposes, and or exploration.

[afroakuma]

As a symbol of health or foundation, perhaps?

[Mando Knight]

What would it symbolize, if the religious connotations were removed?

Depends on the type of cross you use.

Crux Ordinaria, or Latin Cross, the one with the two simple bars, is used in Christianity because of Christ's Crucifixion, which was a common (and grisly, demoralizing, and humiliating) means of execution in the Roman Empire.

Most crosses come from Christian sources, and from the Order of Hospitallers is where the American Red Cross and the first-aid cross seem to come from.

If you're using the Latin Cross, it would probably represent his family/knightly order's history of business as executioners: Red for the blood of the punished criminal, and the cross to represent both the cross and sword as means of execution.

[Keld Denar]

Another thought is that a cross looks similar to a sword pointed down. That might be a symbol of conquest or or peace, depending on how you interpret "down". Red as a colour has some pretty significant meaning in heraldry, google around for various heraldric symbology for more details. I know my fraternity has colors on their crest which are symbolic, but I can't tell you what they mean :P

Really, just make something up. Use the wind idea, or maybe there were 4 brothers who started the order/family/country whatever. That would also give you an oath! You could swear "by the Four" or something like that. Actually, it would be best if you layered it on even more. I know a few of the symbols on my fraternity crest have double and triple meanings, making them even stronger figures. Its a fantasy game....go nuts!

[BRC]

It's a fairly basic geometric shape, so there is no end to the potential symbolism. Maybe an ancestor his his once did somthing famous involving a crossroads, perhaps it's a stylized crossbow.

[Tacoma]

Maybe some tailor decided one day to put perpendicular red stripes on a white tabard. It caught on and suddenly everyone's walking around with 'em.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Crosses can be used as heraldic devices in plenty of other contexts. It's a fairly simple symbol and, for that matter, was a distressingly common form of execution. It could symbolize martyrdom in that context, the Sun in other classical contexts, the elements (or anything else with four parts), or a lower-case "t". For "time to go", you see.

[hamishspence]

a star with long vertical and horizontal rays can be a cross of sorts- doesn't have to tie into the execution item.

[Maroon]

As far as I know, 'fairytale christianity' has been implicit in Gygaxian D&D from when it was still Chainmail. The equipment list of OD&D even has wooden and silver crosses, not 'holy symbols' (mind you, neither are they crucifixes).

I can understand not wanting to discuss real-world religions on the forums, but what's stopping you from using moderately well-known symbolism in a home game? It's probably better than trying to disguise it by replacing it with a random symbol from alchemy, or trying to argue a symbol closely associated with a religious order (and, you know, the Red Cross) is actually something entirely fantastical.

[tsuuga]

Or describe it, not as a cross, but a white field quartered by red. Maybe you support the unification of some holy enterprise, after a bloody schism.

[Deth Muncher]

...or a lower-case "t". For "time to go", you see.

I see what you did there.

[Bonecrusher Doc]

If you use this type of cross it means you're the eighth son in your family. No reason why it couldn't be red. Actually, it's red here.

[Mando Knight]

As far as I know, 'fairytale christianity' has been implicit in Gygaxian D&D from when it was still Chainmail. The equipment list of OD&D even has wooden and silver crosses, not 'holy symbols' (mind you, neither are they crucifixes).

Ah, yes, good ol' Bahamut, the literal (well, almost...) Crystal Dragon Jesus.

[Jeivar]

Well, the 'cross' could represent a stylized warhammer.

[Dacia Brabant]

Well, the 'cross' could represent a stylized warhammer.

That would work well, it's what a lot of the Norse converts did with Thor's Hammer, it was pretty easy to turn that into a cross.

And I'm not surprised St. Cuthbert has a cross symbol, considering he's a real-world saint.

But yeah, use whatever symbols you like, it doesn't mean they have to correspond to how they're treated by real-world religions or organizations as long as you don't treat them the same way. Shoot, symbols change in the real world too, just look at the long history of the swastika.

[Canadian]

I don't see why you can't have it mean whatever you want. It's your shield so you can put whatever you want on it.

[shadowfox]

Maybe he's part of a special order. Now, I'm borrowing heavily from Fiendish Codex II, so I apologize, but it will make sense.

In the beginning, there were demons. Eventually, several of the Lawful deities popped up, and began fighting the demons. They soon grew tired, and made angels to do the work for them. More time went by and, to keep the focus on my point, some of the angels separated themselves in order to, effectively, give mortals something to fear if they defy the god's will.

These angels became the devils.

Heironeous was one of the first deities.

Maybe, the original Lawful deities have established an order to work together in unison, in order to face the threat of demons and, quite possibly, devils as well (right now, they don't fear the devils much, since they're fighting an essential eternal battle that will last to the end of time (although that could change...)). The order's symbol is a red cross.

Now, ideally, there would be 4 patron deities of this order, and it can work with the original lawful deities because they started with one purpose: to prevent the universe from being devoured by demons. Alternatively, you can limit it to good-deities, because... well, it's more acceptable than the idea of an unholy allegiance.

Also, it'd be easier to explain the symbol if it was limited to four deities: much like Christianity has the Father, the Sun, and the Holy Spirit, which has been adapted quite successfully to the cross (kinda), you can say that each point represents a deity.

That's just my swing at it, though.

[Renegade Paladin]

It's a purely aesthetic choice, go for it. I'm even pretty sure I've seen red crosses on some pictures in splatbooks, think it was a worshiper of either Heironeous or St. Cuthbert.

Edit: Found it, looks like a red cross to me.

Because Saint Cuthbert the deity is directly lifted from the personage of Cuthbert of Lindisfarne, patron saint of Northumbria. He was, of course, a Christian figure, hence permitting the introduction of Christian iconography into Greyhawk.

[ericgrau]

I apologize for introducing a potentially religiously charged topic, but I have no idea where to turn. I do not mean to offend anyone's religious beliefs, and am merely asking this question in the interest of helping create the fluff for my latest D&D character.

I'm finally going to make that paladin I asked about a while ago. My biggest problem at this moment is that I sort of want him to have a red cross on his heraldry. I got the inspiration from Spencer's epic poem The Faerie Queene, which begins with the story of Redcrosse, a young holy knight. However, we are using the standard 3.5 D&D pantheon for the game, and thus I worry that crosses would look out of place. how can I justify emblazoning my paladin's tabard and shield with a red cross if he worships Heironeous?

Note that when I say cross, I am referring to just the cross image itself, not a crucifix, which would depict the actual figure of Jesus on the cross. I just want a red cross for my heraldry, like the Knights Templar used.

Red crosses just look cool. Slap one on your shield, wear the normal holy symbol as well and call it a day. Give no religious meaning to it. I was going to give a religious answer when I saw the title, but in this case it need not be religious at all. In fact, I tend to be semi-iconoclastic myself. But for you, slap on a nice big one and make it bright.