[3.5] Full BAB PrC

[Thurbane]

Hi all,

Is there any full BAB prestige classes that advance (divine) spellcasting? Full BAB is a must, but the more casting progressing, the better, even if it's only 1/2 levels. I know Dragonslayer does this (+10 BAB, +5 casting progression), but I'm wondering if any do it better?

3/4 BAB classes (Cleric, Druid) can get into Dragonslyer at 7th, while 1/2 BAB classes (Archivist) couldn't get in until 10. This is just a mental excercise at the moment, since I know most divine casters (Cleric, Druid, Archivist) are already considered very powerful.

A Cleric 7/Dragonslayer 9/Warpriest 4 would have BAB +18 and a caster level of 14, while a Cleric 13/Dragonslayer 7 would have BAB +16 and a caster level of 17...

[Eldariel]

There're many. Ordained Champion [Complete Champion] is a big one. Bone Knight [Some Eberron Book, maybe Five Nations] is really solid. Knight of the Raven [Can't Remember] is good and Fist of Raziel [Book of Exalted Deeds] is solid. Then there's Prestige Paladin (half-casting though) in Unearthed Arcana. Off the top of my head.

[wadledo]

If it's a mental exercise, then you can chuck cleric and archivist out the window.
Divine power makes what your trying to do moot.

Druid, on the other hand, is a bit more interesting.
I'll try to think of something, but the options look slim form here.

[Thurbane]

If it's a mental exercise, then you can chuck cleric and archivist out the window.
Divine power makes what your trying to do moot.

Druid, on the other hand, is a bit more interesting.
I'll try to think of something, but the options look slim form here.

Yes, I knew it was only a matter of time before someone mentioned Divine Power - I was going to edit that into my first post.

For this exercise, I would like it not to be spell, item or DMM dependent.

So taking that (and your suggestion) into account, Druid 13/Dragonslayer7 gives BAB +16 and CL 17.

[Thurbane]

There're many. Ordained Champion [Complete Champion] is a big one. Bone Knight [Some Eberron Book, maybe Five Nations] is really solid. Knight of the Raven [Can't Remember] is good and Fist of Raziel [Book of Exalted Deeds] is solid. Then there's Prestige Paladin (half-casting though) in Unearthed Arcana. Off the top of my head.

Holy crap! I just got out my copy of Castle Ravenloft, and Knight of the Raven is obscene! +10 BAB, +9 CL, and a 3/4 BAB class can enter at 6th level!

Drd 7/KotR 10/Drgnslyr 3 yields +18 BAB and CL 18!

True, you miss out on some sweet, sweet druid abilities, but a 20th level Dracolich Slayer stomping around in dragonhide full plate, wielding a greatsword and throwing around 9th level Druid spells is a pretty scary thought...

[Keld Denar]

KotR also grants turn undead, and all of the DMM shanananananananananananananananananagins that goes with it. Thats if you choose to do that. DMM: Chain is pretty fun with a drood. Combine with Fires of Purity to immolate your whole party with the power of burnination!

[Thurbane]

It seems that KoTR is such a powerhouse PrC, any sane DM would insist on enforcing the "special" requirement to obtain the class. Maybe that's why you don't see it in many builds...

Just for laughs, how far could you advance an Archivist in BAB? He could get into KotR at 8th, so Arc8/KotR10/Drgnslyr2 would yield BAB +16 and CL 18. Wow...did they even playtest KoTR? I really like the flavor of the class, but it just seems so abusable...

[RTGoodman]

It seems that KoTR is such a powerhouse PrC, any sane DM would insist on enforcing the "special" requirement to obtain the class. Maybe that's why you don't see it in many builds...

Just for laughs, how far could you advance an Archivist in BAB? He could get into KotR at 8th, so Arc8/KotR10/Drgnslyr2 would yield BAB +16 and CL 18. Wow...did they even playtest KoTR? I really like the flavor of the class, but it just seems so abusable...

Yeah, but it's in a source that a LOT of people aren't going to buy. I mean, I probably won't ever run Castle Ravenloft, so I haven't looked through it at all, meaning I've never really heard of the KotR before. I might take a look at it now, but I still probably won't spend all the money on an (expensive, hard-cover) adventure JUST for a PrC.

[Eldariel]

Well, KoTR isn't any stronger than normal Druid. In fact, Druid 20 would easily whop Druid 10/KoTR 10's ass. Druid 20 has a relevant animal companion (well, somewhat; high level caster fights, you know the drill), Wildshape into 20HD forms (although that's negated by Shapechange if allowed; between 10 and 18 though, the difference is huge) and more 9th level slots and higher CL (advantage in both, defensive and offensive dispels).

That said, KoTR is a surprisingly non-terrible class and indeed, it's much better than most of the junk people are forced to take if they want to make a non-Persistent Divine Power using Divine Gish (then again, the primary reason for Divine Gishes IS Divine Power and thus the ability to ignore BAB entirely). Personal favourite Divine Gish is Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/KoTR 10/X 1.

[Launchpad]

The "Windwalker" from "Faith and Pantheons" (3.0 Forgotten Realms book) has full base attack, full divine spell progression, 4 skill points per level and some nice abilities (travel and air domain spells added to class list, fly speed of 100ft (good))

[Thurbane]

Yeah, but it's in a source that a LOT of people aren't going to buy. I mean, I probably won't ever run Castle Ravenloft, so I haven't looked through it at all, meaning I've never really heard of the KotR before. I might take a look at it now, but I still probably won't spend all the money on an (expensive, hard-cover) adventure JUST for a PrC.

True, I got the book cheap when 3.5 was going in the bargain bin, and mainly got it for the adventure itself. The new crunch (PrC, legacy items etc.) was unexpected.

Spoiler

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That said, KoTR is a surprisingly non-terrible class and indeed, it's much better than most of the junk people are forced to take if they want to make a non-Persistent Divine Power using Divine Gish (then again, the primary reason for Divine Gishes IS Divine Power and thus the ability to ignore BAB entirely).

Would KoTR be a good PrC for a Favored Soul to pick up Turn Undead? It sounds like it would be very nice for a FS, then to get his hands on DMM. The Favored Soul's class abilities (other than casting) aren't that great, so heavy investment in a PrC should be beneficial.

[Zephyros]

Impure Prince from Magic of Ebberon gives 6/6 bab and 5/6 spellcasting (whatever spellcasting). But has some wonky requirements (fe(abberations) for rangers and that druid feat...what was its name??? HAH! Gatekeeper Initiate...) and comes with some nice perks along the way.

[Eldariel]

True, I got the book cheap when 3.5 was going in the bargain bin, and mainly got it for the adventure itself. The new crunch (PrC, legacy items etc.) was unexpected.

Spoiler

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Would KoTR be a good PrC for a Favored Soul to pick up Turn Undead? It sounds like it would be very nice for a FS, then to get his hands on DMM. The Favored Soul's class abilities (other than casting) aren't that great, so heavy investment in a PrC should be beneficial.

Yea, definitely. Favored Soul and Cleric are both like that, as they have no class features (admittedly, KoTR isn't as good for a Cleric; generally you want some additional class features, but the turning is awesome for FS). And getting turning for a Cha-based caster is huge; even if your turning level isn't up there, just being able to fuel things with your tremendous Cha-based Turning count is awesome. That's why a class like Sacred Exorcist, Knight of the Raven or similar (there's a bunch in at least BoED and CD) should always be on the menu if possible.

Of course, this is all mostly a function of the base classes not actually recieving anything interesting (any class that continues Turning and casting gets everything a Cleric gets, and generally you can burn Turning-attempts on other things so you don't even need the Turning-progression); as should be apparent, this isn't true for the Druid, which makes it an exception in the "PrC if you can"-rule; indeed, Druid is actually one of the very few "Don't PrC unless you have a really good reason to"-classes along with Artificer. The only class that breaks that paradigm is ridiculously broken (Planar Shepherd).

[ChaosDefender24]

AFB, but Swanmay?

[Thurbane]

You are correct sir! Same as KotR - +10 BAB, + 9 CL. Harder to get into though - basically only for female Druids, Rangers or Spirit Shamans (5th), unless anyone I've forgotten gets Wild Empathy.

Drd 10/Swanmay 10 yields +17 BAB and CL 19, or Drd 8/KotR 2/Swanmay 10 yields +18 BAB and CL 18. Nice, either way...

So it seems the best combos can yield a combine BAB and CL of 36. Interesting. Like I said, this is mainly a thought exercise - as wadledo rightly points out, Divine Power renders many of these builds moot.

[RTGoodman]

You are correct sir! Same as KotR - +10 BAB, + 9 CL. Harder to get into though - basically only for female Druids, Rangers or Spirit Shamans (5th), unless anyone I've forgotten gets Wild Empathy.

Well, Bards have speak with animals on their spell list as a 3rd-level spell (available at 7th level), so technically you could do it with that and a dip into a class that gets Wild Empathy. Or there very well could be a Bard variant out there that loses Bardic Knowledge for Wild Empathy - that, possibly combined with the Divine Bard, could be a pretty neat "Fey Disciple" class.

[Uin]

Red Ruby Vindicator: 1/1BAB, 8/10CL, 10/10IL, burning Turn Attempts for smites and EXTRA ACTIONS.

Something like a Cleric9/Crusader1/RRV10 still gets you 9th level spells. Or you can work it the other way and get 9th level Maneuvers.

[Samakain]

Red Ruby Vindicator: 1/1BAB, 8/10CL, 10/10IL, burning Turn Attempts for smites and EXTRA ACTIONS.

Something like a Cleric9/Crusader1/RRV10 still gets you 9th level spells. Or you can work it the other way and get 9th level Maneuvers.

In a game with that exact build now, freaking awsome, back to back with a swordsage/rogue and we do pretty damned well.

[Rei_Jin]

I've built a WBL Cleric5/Ordained Champion5/Knight of the Raven10. With a little tweaking, you've got an AC in the 40s, a BAB of +18, CL17, and you can output some obscene damage.

Take a look here at one way you could take it

Cleric of doom

[Keld Denar]

That dude be scary, and not just from the image! Awesome Smite is a really good feat, btw. Improved Smiting....not so much.

[Rei_Jin]

Improved Smite is good because it makes my weapon good aligned, and I can smite anything I like with my smiting (thanks to Ordained Champion). The extra +1d6 is okay, but especially useful at lower levels.

It's a build I'm using in an actual game, and having a lot of fun. I've only hit level 8 so far, but I'm well on my way, and I'm playing in the Ravenloft Module, so I'll be able to get the roleplaying pre-req done legitimately.

[Eldariel]

Improved Smite is good because it makes my weapon good aligned, and I can smite anything I like with my smiting (thanks to Ordained Champion). The extra +1d6 is okay, but especially useful at lower levels.

You can easily align your weapons through spells though.

[Keld Denar]

You can easily align your weapons through spells though.

Awesome Smiting also gets you around DR, which is the whole purpose of aligning a weapon. I see a redundancy...

[Rei_Jin]

True, but the one thing that is almost impossible to get more of, is actions. And if I have to spend an action aligning my weapon, then that's one less action I get to do something else, like cast Destruction.

The only real limitation with high level characters is that you don't have enough actions to be able to do everything you want. So, the less you need to rely on spells to be effective in melee, the better.

I can already cast any War Domain spells spontaneously, and as a Swift action. That gives me optimal freedom to drop Flamestrikes and Righteous Might as needed, but Align weapon is not really worth burning an action on.

Whereas, when I'm in Melee, odds are that I'll be smiting. So, Improved Smite has a good return for this character.

[Eldariel]

Generally you can afford your second swift action for Align Weapon. That is assuming that you didn't spot the encounter (monsters with DR/Alignment are often quite easy to spot and tell apart since they tend to be outsiders; unless you're actually adventuring on an aligned plane home to these monsters, in which case you'd just be sporting aligned weapon all the time). Also, Holy is a fairly damn good enhancement that does the same and is one you'll probably be getting eventually anyways.

[Keld Denar]

Also, Holy is a fairly damn good enhancement that does the same and is one you'll probably be getting eventually anyways.

Sacred (Libris Mortis: The Book of Bad Latin) is circumstantially better. Vs EOs, its the same bonus damage and alignment factor, for half the enhancement bonus. Vs Undeaders, its half the bonus damage for half the cost...plus it still aligns. Vs other evil dudes....not so much.

Still, no reason not to have both, eh eh eh? SUCK MY 4D6 ASMODEUS!

*squish*

[Thurbane]

Sacred (Libris Mortis: The Book of Bad Latin)

Sig'd

[Keld Denar]

WOOT! That's the first time someone has ever sigged a funny I've made.

:happydance:

[UserClone]

In the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, you can find a Cleric variant called (IIRC) Holy Warrior, in which you give up all access to domains, your extra domain slots, and domain powers for full BAB and a d10 HD.