[4e] Quick query regarding power attack

[phoatu]

I've searched around online to see if anyone has any examples of the power attack feat in play or how it would work with powers.

I already know that you can use power attack with a basic melee attack, but i'm a bit hazy as to how 'when making a melee attack' counts.

Let's say we have a level 11 swordmage uses circle of devastation. It has the keywords: arcane, force, and weapon, and it's attack type is 'close burst 2'
The attack allows you to strike all the creatures in the area and you deal weapon damage to them as well as other effects.

According to what i know of the rules, the weapon keyword allows you weapon proficiency/focus bonuses to attack and damage, but would it likewise allow you to make the attack into a power attack?

It would seem that that might be unlikely considered that it hits multiple targets and it would render power attack overpowered.

Basically i'd like to verify whether or not power attack works with any power that has the weapon keyword and allows you to make a weapon attack, or just ones that specifically say the attack type is 'melee weapon' and not any other type?

I know that 'close burst 2' should be a dead giveaway as to whether or not power attack can be applied here, but it can't hurt to ask, right?

Thanks in advanced for your reply.

[Tengu_temp]

An attack counts as melee if its range is listed as "Melee weapon" or "Melee or Ranged weapon" and you're using it with a melee weapon. "Close Burst 2" is neither of those, so you can't use it with Power Attack.

[phoatu]

Thanks for the verification, i appreciate it

[Yakk]

And no, power attack isn't that overpowered even when used on a close burst 2 power.

Taking a -2 penalty to hit drops your damage output by about 20%.

You then (with a 2 H weapon in Heroic tier) get a +3 bonus to damage.

This turns out to be good for you when the damage before doing power attack is less than the damage afterwards. If X is your hit damage before, it works out to (to a first approximation):
X < (X+3)*.8
X < .8 X + 2.4
.2 X < 2.4
X < 12

Ie, when your two handed weapon attack does, on average, less than 12 damage, power attack increases your average damage per attack roll. When it does 12 or more, power attack typically decreases your damage.

A 1d10 weapon with +6 to damage is already at the edge of this range.

At paragon and epic, the calculations are:
P < (P+6)*.8 <-> P < 24
E < (E+9)*.8 <-> E < 36

Ie, using a 2 handed weapon, if you are already doing an average of 24+ damage per hit, power attack is bad.

Now, all of this has the assumption that you hit about half of the time. The higher your hit chance is, the stronger power attack becomes.

If you start out with a 75% chance to hit with average damage D, and power attack deals extra damage K, then power attack is worth it (on average) when:

.75 * D < .65 * (D + K)
.1 * D < .65 * K
D < 6.5 * K
or 19.5 in Heroic, 39 in Paragon and 58.5 in Epic.

So on targets you can easily hit, power attack becomes more viable. On "typical" targets, power attack ... tends to be not that good.

A character using a 2d6 brutal 1 weapon, +6, with a +8 stat-to-damage and +5 damage from other sources, with a basic attack and a 50% chance to hit, deals 35 damage per hit on average.

A character using a one-handed 1d8 weapon +6, with +8 stat-to-damage and +3 damage from other sources, deals 26 damage on average.

These are both reasonable models of a L 30 character's basic attack. And in both cases, power attack sucks ass.

In short, feel free to allow power attack with pretty much any [Weapon] power and you won't run into serious balance issues that I've noticed.

[theMycon]

Brief summary of Yakk's point, for those who don't want to read math:

"Only take power attack if you know your game is going to end low-level, you never have any trouble hitting, or you have the feat spare.

Since you can choose whether or not to make an individual attack a PA or not... choose wisely, instead of applying it will-nilly to all attacks."

[KillianHawkeye]

I just wanna take a sec to explain a power's Range keywords. The various keywords are: Melee, Ranged, Close, Area, and Personal.

I already know that you can use power attack with a basic melee attack, but i'm a bit hazy as to how 'when making a melee attack' counts.

The 'melee attack' mentioned refers to any attack with the Melee keyword, whether it is made using a weapon or not. (There are some powers with a range of Melee 1.)

Usually the range of a Melee power is dependant on the range of your weapon, which will typically be 1 unless you have a reach weapon. Martial Ranged powers also generally have a range determined by your weapon.

Let's say we have a level 11 swordmage uses circle of devastation. It has the keywords: arcane, force, and weapon, and it's attack type is 'close burst 2'

This power has a range of Close, so it cannot be used to PA. Close attacks will always be further categorized as a Burst or a Blast, which defines the area of effect but does not change the range.

Similarly, Area-ranged powers will be either Bursts or Walls and, like Ranged powers, will give a number (within X) that tells you how far away you can target the effect's origin.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Hey, while we're on Power Attack...

So, according to Yakk's math, my Greataxe +2 Wielding STR 20 Paragon Fighter (+Mighty Striking) should never be power attacking - I think.

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Wait, that wasn't right. STR+WF+ENCH+MS = 5+2+2+2 = 11 + 1d12 < 24. Good, I wasn't dumb. I should just not PA on 3[W] and above attacks, I think.

But what about a Twin Striking Ranger? Since you don't get the STR bonus anyhow, putting miscellaneous modifiers to damage seems optimal. Assuming a LV 11 Human Ranger with STR 20, Bastard Swords +2, and Weapon Focus; should he ever Power Attack when Twin Striking?

EDIT: Oh come on, I shouldn't be that lazy. Plus, that answer should just be the Heroic Two-Handed solution. WF+ENCH = 4 +1d10, which is <12 on anything lower than an 8. Sounds like a good idea. Let's try that at Heroic though...

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H < (H+2)*.8
H < 0.8H + 1.6
0.2H < 1.6
H < 8

So, at first level this is a good idea (1+1d10 > 8 on a 7+), but if you have more than a +2 enchantment bonus it becomes marginal. And you should never do it with a 2[W]+ power. Unless the two attacks changes the math for some reason...

[Yakk]

But part of the problem is the opportunity cost. The math just said if you should power attack given you have the feat. That math doesn't tell you if getting the feat was a good idea.

Using power attack isn't a bad idea when attacking easy-to-hit opponents -- creatures much lower in level than your character, for example.

And yes, it should work relatively well with Ranger multi-hit powers. A multi-hit two-handed weapon power would actually be ideal, but that is rare. :-)

[phoatu]

Hey, while we're on Power Attack...

So, according to Yakk's math, my Greataxe +2 Wielding STR 20 Paragon Fighter (+Mighty Striking) should never be power attacking - I think.

Wait, that wasn't right. STR+WF+ENCH+MS = 5+2+2+2 = 11 + 1d12 < 24. Good, I wasn't dumb. I should just not PA on 3[W] and above attacks, I think.

Speaking of Mighty striking, while we're on the topic, that most certainly doesn't apply to powers in general, right?

[Mando Knight]

Speaking of Mighty striking, while we're on the topic, that most certainly doesn't apply to powers in general, right?

Exactly. That only works on Basic Attacks, which mean that it's useful for the ally who is frequently chosen by a Warlord's Commander's Strike, makes a lot of Opportunity Attacks (except if they've got Heavy Blade Opportunity), or are Assault Swordmages who tend to have their marks triggered.

[TheOOB]

Power attack is useful if you fight lots of enemies with comparably low defenses. If you are fighting a monster you hit on a 6 or better(through a combination of abnormally high bonuses, low monster level, and abnormally low defenses) you are changing your 80% hit rate into a 70% hit rate(a net change of 12.5%) for three extra damage (assuming 2H weapon), which assuming youi average 12 damage(7 from weapon, 4 from strength, 1 from other sources) is a 25% increase to damage(for a net increase of 12.5% damage overall). If you fight lots of brutes and/or have a good leader or two these situations can come up quite a bit.

I personally don't like it, I'd rather have a higher hit rate with less damage myself, but it is mathematically useful, though weapon focus is better.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Exactly. That only works on Basic Attacks, which mean that it's useful for the ally who is frequently chosen by a Warlord's Commander's Strike, makes a lot of Opportunity Attacks (except if they've got Heavy Blade Opportunity), or are Assault Swordmages who tend to have their marks triggered.

Or amusing Fighter builds which involve a lot of charging

Personally, I use Basic Attacks instead of Reaping Strike at Paragon level. 4 damage on a miss just doesn't seem as good as getting an extra 2 on a hit, but maybe that's just because I like hitting harder than hitting reliably. Hopefully that isn't completely stupid.

[Yakk]

At 50% hit chance, assuming you do X damage with a hit on reaping strike and have a stat bonus of S, you do:
X/2 + S/2
damage on average per attack attempt with reaping strike.

If you do +2 damage on a basic attack, and have a 50% chance of hitting you do:
X/2+1
damage on average per attack attempt with a basic attack.

In essence, using the +2 damage basic attack choice costs you on average 1 damage per round at 50% hit chance.

At Z% hit chance, Reaping does:
X * Z% + S * (100%-Z%)
damage. In this case, S = 4 (pretty low for paragon, isn't it?), giving us:
X*Z% + 4 - 4*Z%

And a basic attack does:
X * Z% + 2*Z%

So the difference works out to:
4-6*Z%
(where positive is more damage for Reaping).

When Z = 4/6, or when you hit on a 6+, you will do more damage on average with a +2 bonus to a basic attack. Otherwise, you will do more damage on average with Reaping Strike.

Mighty Striking is still good, because it works on Opportunity Attacks (unless you have the feat that lets you use Fighter powers on OAs).