SWSE - The Clone Wars

[Talya]

Neat supplement, for any campaign setting, actually, although much of it is specifically designed for the Clone Wars era.

I particularly like the Jedi Archivist talent tree for the Jedi Knight PrC. No longer will Jedi feel like they didn't get enough trained skills--a single talent and you get to use UTF for all Knowledge skills.

Exposing Strike has the potential to be a duel-ending force point expenditure.

Surge of Light is a boon to anyone who didn't have the available feats in their build to take four or five instances of Force Training, or who had a low-ish wisdom.

[Ascension]

It is a nice book... and I think this one's done a better job than any of the previous campaign guides in terms of presenting a wide variety of period-appropriate adversaries of all sorts of CLs on both sides of the conflict... though the stat blocks appear to still be a bit on the... unreliable side. Check out the melee attack bonuses on page 194.

[Talya]

It is a nice book... and I think this one's done a better job than any of the previous campaign guides in terms of presenting a wide variety of period-appropriate adversaries of all sorts of CLs on both sides of the conflict... though the stat blocks appear to still be a bit on the... unreliable side. Check out the melee attack bonuses on page 194.

Yes, those bonuses obviously have issues.

The editing for Saga in general has been...lacking, to say the least. I particularly liked, on the gleemax forums about a year and a half ago, the argument between uncredited original primary game designer for the saga project Gary M. Sarli and one of the WotC employees credited with working on the book regarding the nature of Melee Defense and Fighting Defensively (thankfully, Gary Sarli provided an answer that makes sense and is balanced. Unfortunately, Rodney Thomson, not so much.) Same thing with the stats for the Miraluka race. Sarli posted an early, balanced, useful version of the gleemax forums. By the time they were released (twice in two different saga books, both times with different traits) they were unplayably useless.

[TheCountAlucard]

I haven't had a chance to buy it yet, but I'll be sure and take a look.

[Uin]

This is the first Saga book since SotG that I haven't pre-ordered. I'm not fussed for the current Clone Wars. Also, I hear there are no rules for Grievous in CWCG. Mind you the second half of Scum and Villany was disappointing too.

I'm much more looking forward to the Legacy Campaign Guide in March. Legacy (+130ABY) is where I set most of my games and the Clone Wars is such a narrow time period.

[Ascension]

the argument between uncredited original primary game designer for the saga project Gary M. Sarli and one of the WotC employees credited with working on the book regarding the nature of Melee Defense and Fighting Defensively (thankfully, Gary Sarli provided an answer that makes sense and is balanced. Unfortunately, Rodney Thomson, not so much.)

And that answer would be? I don't pay attention to the WotC forums.

Same thing with the stats for the Miraluka race. Sarli posted an early, balanced, useful version of the gleemax forums. By the time they were released (twice in two different saga books, both times with different traits) they were unplayably useless.

Huh? What's unplayable about them? They may not be as powerful as some species, but I don't think there's anything wrong with them.

Now something there is something wrong with are the Gen'Dai. They're supposed to be a player race? What the heck? We need Level Adjustment. Stat.

Also, I hear there are no rules for Grievous in CWCG.

That's because he's in Core.

[Attilargh]

I took a quick peek through it yesterday. The sections I looked through, mainly gear and NPCs, weren't all that exciting. There was a lot of stuff, but much of it just felt "Clone Troopers UNDERWATEEEEER" and "Like a Crab Droid, except bigger". I was particularly unimpressed by the equipment section, which had the same problem as the Arms And Equipment Guide: It was full of veeeery slightly modified generic stuff that had been given a fancy-schmancy name and not much else. Fitting enough, considering most of the items were just A&EG conversions.

Even though I'm all for a book doing the tedious bits of the GM's work for him, this is just waffing about. I am fully capable of coming up with the rules for a telescoping club myself, thank you. I think I could even take a fair stab at enlarging a Crab Droid, or training a Clone Trooper to swim for some underwater action. Maybe even, the Force forbid, making a note for myself that a Clone Scout Trooper can use his Point Blank Shot feat and has a BARC Speeder instead of an Aratech 74-Z.

Taken a look at the DeathHammer, by the way? It's a heavy blaster pistol with a better DR. Plus a hundred credit discount and a hundred gram diet. Oh, and it's not Inaccurate.


I don't know, maybe I'm just being unfair. The Confederacy droid section was rather massive, and it had a bunch of droids I'd been missing. The Starships section had a few cool ships, and the equipment section has a few useful things like the garrote and the stuff that are not weapons. Maybe the character options make up for the useless in the sections I skimmed through.

[Talya]

And that answer would be? I don't pay attention to the WotC forums.

Gary Sarli treats Fighting Defensively as a standard action that includes an attack at -5. When he wrote it, he was thinking of 3.5 fighting defensively as his model. Rodney treats fighting defensively as a standard action that does NOT include an attack. (Making the -5 penalty rather pointless.) Rodney prefers the 4e implementation.

When Sarli wrote Melee Defense, he specifically explained using the "Normal" entry in the feat that Melee Defense replaces fighting defensively, like Combat Expertise vs. Fighting Defensively in 3.5. It's basically "improved fighting defensively," and therefore qualifies for any and all benefits that fighting defensively might provide.

Rodney sees them as two entirely different things (and essentially renders them both mostly useless in the process.)

Huh? What's unplayable about them? They may not be as powerful as some species, but I don't think there's anything wrong with them.

Compared to humans, just about every race is suboptimal except for very specific builds utilizing a particular strength that they have. Miraluka don't even have that option for building to a particular strength.

Sarli's original implementation of Miraluka made exceptional "armored jedi" (multiclassing, starting with soldier.) It was one of the few builds they were good for, but at least it worked.

Now something there is something wrong with are the Gen'Dai. They're supposed to be a player race? What the heck? We need Level Adjustment. Stat.

I don't think I'd play one as they are.

[Ascension]

Gary Sarli treats Fighting Defensively as a standard action that includes an attack at -5. When he wrote it, he was thinking of 3.5 fighting defensively as his model. Rodney treats fighting defensively as a standard action that does NOT include an attack. (Making the -5 penalty rather pointless.) Rodney prefers the 4e implementation.

I thought it was rather obvious that it includes an attack... It's a common sense sort of thing, is it not? Aside from the automatic Fighting Defensively for followers who aren't doing anything, of course, it would obviate the need for the additional follower-commanding talents if they were actually attacking every round.

When Sarli wrote Melee Defense, he specifically explained using the "Normal" entry in the feat that Melee Defense replaces fighting defensively, like Combat Expertise vs. Fighting Defensively in 3.5. It's basically "improved fighting defensively," and therefore qualifies for any and all benefits that fighting defensively might provide.

Rodney sees them as two entirely different things (and essentially renders them both mostly useless in the process.)

Again, I thought this was a common sense issue.

Compared to humans, just about every race is suboptimal except for very specific builds utilizing a particular strength that they have.

We're talking about two different things here. Useless and suboptimal are two different things. I'd call several Saga species suboptimal, but the Zabrak are the only ones I'd call useless.

Miraluka don't even have that option for building to a particular strength.

Sarli's original implementation of Miraluka made exceptional "armored jedi" (multiclassing, starting with soldier.) It was one of the few builds they were good for, but at least it worked.

Optimization isn't the key to everything. They seem to compare well enough with the other nonhuman races, so I don't really care that they can't be exploited in any particular way.

I don't think I'd play one as they are.

I wouldn't play one either, but that's just because I hate Durge. They're pretty much unkillable.

[Uin]

That's because he's in Core.

I was thinking more about proper rules for his cyborginess.

[Talya]

I thought it was rather obvious that it includes an attack... It's a common sense sort of thing, is it not? Aside from the automatic Fighting Defensively for followers who aren't doing anything, of course, it would obviate the need for the additional follower-commanding talents if they were actually attacking every round.


...
Again, I thought this was a common sense issue.

Yes, you would think so. Note, however, that as Rodney is the official WotC employee, and Sarli (despite having written the majority of the thing and being the concept designer) only being a contractor, the opinion on gleemax falls against the side of common sense.

We're talking about two different things here. Useless and suboptimal are two different things. I'd call several Saga species suboptimal, but the Zabrak are the only ones I'd call useless.

Actually, Miraluka as eventually implemented fall about even with Zabrak, I'd say.

Optimization isn't the key to everything. They seem to compare well enough with the other nonhuman races, so I don't really care that they can't be exploited in any particular way.

No, they really don't. Because many of the other nonhuman races can be "exploited" to be particularly useful in some way that humans cannot fill better. Miraluka cannot.

I wouldn't play one either, but that's just because I hate Durge. They're pretty much unkillable.

Unkillable does not mean overpowered. Look at the 3.5 monk...the thing's very hard to kill. Doesn't mean it's useful for anything.

[Mando Knight]

I was thinking more about proper rules for his cyborginess.

Also core. He's just had almost everything removed and replaced with cybernetics. If he were Force-Sensitive, he'd probably have a -5 or -6 to his UTF checks because of it. He's had enough replaced that he counts as a droid for installing components, and has immunity to atmospheric/inhaled hazards. His armor seems to be droid Durasteel battle armor with increased flexibility. His basic race is Kaleesh... which since I don't have the Clone Wars book, I have no idea whether that race has rules written up for it yet.

[Talya]

Unrelenting Assault kicks ass.