[3.5]Replacing the abyss/hades/nine hells with a Disgaea-like netherworld? Perhaps...

[newbDM]

[3.5]Replacing the abyss/hades/nine hells with a Disgaea-like netherworld? Perhaps working it into an adventure?


This idea has been floating around in my head since before I even tried my hand at DMing, and now I finally want to ask what you all think about this. Please be as honest and critical as you please.


I am not 100% sure how I would go about it, but I want to keep all this consistent with the current progress and events that have happened in my homebrewed multiverse so far, and if possible somehow make it something PCs can play a part in in some way (it seems a bit significant for simple PCs, though).


Fluff concept so far:

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Basically, what I keep picturing in my head is a scene where all of a sudden an NPC (who will never be named) will pop into my multiverse from a vortex/gate similar to the one which first connected to the Farm Realm (hence making the Far Realm aware of the standard D&D multiverses). Said NPC will look a lot like, but isn't, a certain character from a certain game named Disgaea. He will then look around, begin laughing manically in a humorous way like the certain character I mentioned above, who he isn't, followed by what I picture to be an overview shot of my multiverse's greatwheel functioning normally, but then suddenly being rammed by a completely unknown plane which seems to have materialized out of nowhere.

The greatwheel then proceeds to fall into disorder, as all the divine level powers (and equivalents) become utterly confused as to what is going on.

Then, as the new plane begins to materialize into existence around the mysterious gate and the still laughing young looking NPC, who is again not that character you are probably thinking about, a somewhat succubus looking (although too young looking for such a race) teenage girl holding a trident walks out, followed by what seems to be a celestial deva with wings and a halo (again, apparently very young looking) and a handful of what seem to be blue penguins with pirate wooden legs, all of which seem to be confused as to what the heck/netherworld is going on.

Essentially, what I am picturing in my head is a situation where both sets of "Bad Place(s)" + "Good Place" (aka outer planes) are competing with each other for dominance, and with that permanent existence in my homebrew multiverse's continuity. This would also mean that when the conflict finally ends (if it ever does, since I guess it could go on indefinitely) if the "new" planes win it takes over the cosmology's continuity present, future, and past, which would mean that history would essentially be rewritten from the start.


For the fluff of why this is happening I am thinking the following (Warning, slight Disgaea spoilers!):

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For those who played the game, you might know that there is an alternate/side route/plot you can take with the characters that leads to "alternate netherworlds", each of which seemed to have it's own slightly different and complete cosmology, with its own "King of the Demons".

The Demon Kings are fighting among themselves to be the ruler of all the netherworlds, with another certain NPC being near to completing his goal. If you beat this side adventure, then Laharl may become the one who rules all the netherworlds.

All of this is actually what started me on this whole idea a year ago back, since I figure that this could mean that they could potentially connect to the D&D cosmology's set of "netherworlds" by this mean (I know, silly idea, but I seem to constantly get such thoughts...). So basically, now Laha...I mean the nameless NPC who just happens to have divine ranks, with the help of those two other NPCs who function as his cohorts in D&D terms, are here to conquer this cosmology as well.

I have been planning a similar "event" with the classic older edition plane of Nirvana appearing from seemingly nowhere (perhaps the Far Realm?) and ending up in a conflict with Mechanis for survival in the continuity, but my first campaign ended just short of beginning this plot. Picture the Modrons fighting against the Inevitables/Formians in an epic LN vs. LN interplaner war (although both planes are somewhat similar...) as the rest of the multiverse looks on in a "WTF?! O.o" expression.

So, although it is cheap as a DM, I decided to recycle the above method I never got to use (well, for now I hope) for this campaign concept.

All these ideas are sketchy and have only been worked on/thought off during some of my free time as I daydream, so I am hoping you guys can give me your opinions and criticism on the whole idea.


I do want to make it a fair chance for either side to 'win", so I figure I should be grateful I can gather PCs/players for that!

I do not want to run epic games, but I do not see how I can possibly involve normal characters into such an epic thing as deciding/tipping the balance of what sets of planes would remain in existence, especially since if one side of the conflict wins it means the PCs have caused/helped rewrite all history (potentially ending the blood war as well, in a way I guess...).

Then again, I guess I could just make it a survival style game, with the PCs' goals being to merely survive what is happening after initially getting stuck on one of the planes at the very start of the campaign? (Hmmm, this could make for an interesting plane hopping adventure as the PCs scatter for safety/a way back to the Prime Material as they planehop from say The Abyss, to Hades, to the Nine Hells, to the new Netherworld. Perhaps even stopping by Celestia, and the Disgaea version of Heaven?)


p.s.
Some P.S. notes:

• I figure that Celestia and Heaven would probably be a lot more civil about this. Perhaps both sides simply calmly wait to see the result of the Abyss/Hades/Hells and Netherworld conflict, with the side who loses out willingly getting absorbed to some extent to the winning side?
• To make things a bit easier on myself, if the Netherworld wins perhaps after the standard evil planer trio fades some of their creatures get assimilated into the Netherworld? From what I remember of the game, there was a vast verity of demon/devil types in the Netherworld, so I guess it makes sense. If I go this route, perhaps a much lesser version of the bloodwar between the chaotic demons and lawful devils remains? Or would all of them also be humorously less evil like the rest of the Netherworld demons/devils?
• To make things a whole lot simpler for myself, would simply reflavoring all the demons and devils into monsters I see in the game be a good idea? It is very cheap as a DM, though. I am also worried about this method causing confusion for the players.
• In addition to a number of the planes and many of the monsters/creature changing, wouldn't changing the "good and bad places" into the Disgaea comical versions essentially change the character and humor/humor style of the entire multiverse into that of the Disgaea game?!
• If the Netherworld wins, then would simply reflavoring the celestial creatures/devas/etc into "Angels" without mechanical changes be a good idea as a DM? Or does this completely defeat the purpose of making such a major change to my cosmology?

[Aquillion]

You might try looking this up: Disgaea Campaign Setting.

Also, while using the setting isn't a bad idea, I advise against using even Expies for any specific characters from the game, Laharl in particular. The problem is that those characters were made to be attention-grabbing PC characters, central to their plot (canon cameos in other Nippon Ichi games notwithstanding, since those are generally played for humor). They could very easily overshadow the PCs if you're not careful. They also tend to have their own associated plotlines and backgrounds that, again, will frequently clash with the PCs (and not in a good conflict-inducing way, but in a your-players-don't-really-care-about-this sort of way, even if they played Disgaea -- in fact, it can be worse if they played the game the character came from.)

The general setting is fine, but I'd advise using an overlord that is as original as possible, not a canonical one.

The other, possibly more serious problem is that, as you noted, there doesn't seem to be too much room for the players in all this. You could try and make room, but if you're not careful then there's a real risk of having them feel marginal while you play out the plot in front of them. There's also a huge risk of them simply being outmatched if you try to capture any of the setting. For instance:

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Laharl (a fairly inexperienced and young Overlord) was cutscene-powerful enough to singlehandedly wipe out the invading battle-fleet of an entire technologically-advanced planet. And for most of the game he was significantly weaker than any of his family attendants, so he is small fry at that point in the story as far as Nippon Ichi demons go.

That sort of power doesn't leave much room for the guy with Power Attack to accomplish very much.

[newbDM]

Thank you for the response Aquilion!

You might try looking this up: Disgaea Campaign Setting.

Thank you for that link.

However, isn't that the 4th edition Disgaea project a member here has been working on for quite some time?

I am not a big 4.o fan...

Also, while using the setting isn't a bad idea, I advise against using even Expies for any specific characters from the game, Laharl in particular. The problem is that those characters were made to be attention-grabbing PC characters, central to their plot (canon cameos in other Nippon Ichi games notwithstanding, since those are generally played for humor). They could very easily overshadow the PCs if you're not careful. They also tend to have their own associated plotlines and backgrounds that, again, will frequently clash with the PCs (and not in a good conflict-inducing way, but in a your-players-don't-really-care-about-this sort of way, even if they played Disgaea -- in fact, it can be worse if they played the game the character came from.)

Thank you for the warning. I can see your reasoning is sound, however I felt half the fun would be having them as NPCs.

I did not really plan to get into their plots much, but isntead have them as NPCs that helped direct the plot (or possibly even be the ones to hire/recruit the PCs?).

I was originally thinking of the adventure focusing completely around the PCs, with the Disgaea NPCs and references being part of the background plot. At the most I had pictured the PCs (depending on their actions, and the routes/choices they chose) trying to figure out who this new "Overlord" (thank you for reminding me about that word/title! I had mistaken it with "Demon King" for some reason) for other NPCs (either NPCs from the Prime Material, or perhaps even the Demon Lords and/or the Dukes of the Nine Hells?!).

I hadn't even thought of the possibility of them overshadowing the PCs, since I had not thought of focusing much on them. That word espies (looked it up, thanks for adding to my gamer vocabulary!) describes well how I was originally planning to use them.

The general setting is fine, but I'd advise using an overlord that is as original as possible, not a canonical one.

Again, I feel that kind of defeats half the fun of all this.

Although, I have no idea how to possibly do Laharl's voice...

Then again, knowing the rule about players figure out the 1 option out of 100 you hadn't thought off, perhaps even a PC(s) might end up a(n) Overlord.

The other, possibly more serious problem is that, as you noted, there doesn't seem to be too much room for the players in all this. You could try and make room, but if you're not careful then there's a real risk of having them feel marginal while you play out the plot in front of them.

Good point. I am starting to think that with something like this my only options might be to dumb such an epic thing down to a meaningless level for PCs to take a big part in, or have the PCs actually be marginal in the event.

That considered, would you say going the plane-hopping, the whole multiverse is falling apart, survival idea for the adventure would be a good idea? The one where they essentially for some reason end up plane hopping through all the "bad place" planes (and perhaps the "good place" two), merely trying to survive (and possibly get back home?), while witnessing the multiverse changing event and conflict as passerbies (such as the eternal battle in the Gray Wastes being suddenly interrupted by a third party smashing in, getting a glimpse of significant demon lords peacefully meeting in the Nine Hells with the Arch-Devils, and similar scenes)?

There's also a huge risk of them simply being outmatched if you try to capture any of the setting. For instance:

Spoiler

Show

Laharl (a fairly inexperienced and young Overlord) was cutscene-powerful enough to singlehandedly wipe out the invading battle-fleet of an entire technologically-advanced planet. And for most of the game he was significantly weaker than any of his family attendants, so he is small fry at that point in the story as far as Nippon Ichi demons go.

That sort of power doesn't leave much room for the guy with Power Attack to accomplish very much.

Hmm. You bring up a great point. However, you also gave me some great plot material!

Perhaps the very different scale of the Nippon Ichi demons/devils (and by that logic the Nippon Ichi Angels/Celestials?) could justify why they are an actual threat two both the abyssal demons and the Hellish devils? I was having a really hard time justifying that until now.

[Agrippa]

This in part depends on whether you are using standard WotC Planar Lords or the Dicefreaks versions. If you use the Dicefreaks versions, well the likes of Larhal, Adell and Mao would have a much harder time than normal. On the bright side the whole of the Upper Planes would most likely come to the aid of these Netherworldly overlords a.) because morally speaking they're that much better than the current rulers of the Depths Below (Asmodeus, the Oiniloth, all major Demon Princes), b.) to possibly turn them fully fledged Good and c.) the Realms Above could get at least three new generals, or least three new combat monsters. If you want an idea of how I view demons and devils think of Chaos and the Dark Eldar on one hand and the Imperium of Mankind, the Craftworld Eldar and the Tau on the other hand.

[vicente408]

I really hope the Farm Realm wasn't a typo.

[newbDM]

This in part depends on whether you are using standard WotC Planar Lords or the Dicefreaks versions. If you use the Dicefreaks versions, well the likes of Larhal, Adell and Mao would have a much harder time than normal.

Forgive my confusion, but who are the Planer Lords?

Also, what/who is dicefreaks?

On the bright side the whole of the Upper Planes would most likely come to the aid of these Netherworldly overlords a.) because morally speaking they're that much better than the current rulers of the Depths Below (Asmodeus, the Oiniloth, all major Demon Princes),

I hadn't thought of that.

You have a good point here. Although. do you really think they would aid and lose their lives for any kind of demon/devil/whatever these would be called?

to possibly turn them fully fledged Good

Hmm. Another good point.

Perhaps Flone has been doing a good job of teaching the Netherworld "love" by now?

and c.) the Realms Above could get at least three new generals, or least three new combat monsters.

Well, I originally figured that one continuity would completely erase the other, or at most a few fragments of the previous/other would be absorbed. So if the Netherworld wins, then I believe Celestia would be replaced with the Disgaea Heaven?

Do you think this would lead the archons to battle the angels?


And I am curious, which three combat monsters were you referring too? I do not seem to recall what you are talking about, but I would like to try stating them up!

If you want an idea of how I view demons and devils think of Chaos and the Dark Eldar on one hand and the Imperium of Mankind, the Craftworld Eldar and the Tau on the other hand.

Funny, I used the same comparison when I began D&D. I have long since quite 40K due to GW's greed and nerfing of anything non-space marine (particularly eldar), though.

I still use bits from my old armies for D&D, though.

[newbDM]

I really hope the Farm Realm wasn't a typo.

LoL.

I hadn't even noticed that...

[Agrippa]

Forgive my confusion, but who are the Planer Lords?

Also, what/who is dicefreaks?

Planar Lords are the rulers of the Outer Planes. They include the Lords of the Nine, the Demon Princes and the Seven Virtues. This link to Gates of Hell will give you an idea of what Dicefreaks' take on the Outer Planes is..

I hadn't thought of that.

You have a good point here. Although. do you really think they would aid and lose their lives for any kind of demon/devil/whatever these would be called?

Some of them might at first, and then others would follow. One of the lessons of the Realms Above is to judge others by their words, actions and personal character instead of their looks and origin. The Depths Below (The Nine Hells, Hades and the Abyss to name a few) on the other hand, promote bigotry, hated and intolerance.

Hmm. Another good point.

Perhaps Flone has been doing a good job of teaching the Netherworld "love" by now?

And they won't even need new wings. Nor would the redeemed succubae require any more clothing than they already wear. They’d go from being annoying, dark and smart ass spirits of petty delinquency to being righteous, dark and smart ass spirits of justice, holiness and vengeance against the unjust. Basically angels with a dark and demonic motif.

Well, I originally figured that one continuity would completely erase the other, or at most a few fragments of the previous/other would be absorbed. So if the Netherworld wins, then I believe Celestia would be replaced with the Disgaea Heaven?

Do you think this would lead the archons to battle the angels?

In my opinion, not really. Disgaea Heaven and D&D's Seven Heavens would just merge into one and all of Disgaea's angels would be counted as archons. Of course that's only how I would handle it.

And I am curious, which three combat monsters were you referring too? I do not seem to recall what you are talking about, but I would like to try stating them up!

Larahl, Adell and Mao. I don't care how cute you look, if you're anywhere near as powerful as those three guys you are a combat monster. Same for Princess Sapphire.

[Jothki]

I really hope the Farm Realm wasn't a typo.

There is no cow level.

[Behold_the_Void]

Thank you for the response Aquilion!




Thank you for that link.

However, isn't that the 4th edition Disgaea project a member here has been working on for quite some time?

I am not a big 4.o fan...

Huh. I didn't know people still used that.

Actually that's the 3.5 version I made awhile back. I ran it in my campaign about a year ago, it seemed to work out reasonably well (epic fell apart as epic does, but that was the point since it was a silly campaign so I didn't mind). I'd further suggest using Tome of Battle for fighter-types, Demons, at the very least, in order to capture more of the feel.