[3.X] How to beat an Ancient Black Dragon

[Person_Man]

OK, so you're playing in an semi-optimized high level party. The DM is sick of your Batman Wizard acting like a jerk. And the party has completely derailed the DM's carefully crafted plotlines for petty reasons. It's the classic DM vs. PC's confrontation that can ruin a campaign.

So the DM throws an Ancient Black Dragon with class levels at you. The dragon has high SR, high Saves, high AC, high attributes, a ton of hit points, a ton of attacks, DR, a killer breath weapon, the works. His spell and feat selection is picked out specifically to screw over your party's best spells and combo's. You're a ECL 14ish party fighting an Epic CR dragon, and your DM has decided that TPK wouldn't be such a bad thing.

As a player, the only thing I could think to do would be to use Dust of Sneezing and Choking. Even when the dragon makes his Save, he'll still be Stunned for 5d4 rounds. Of course, the DM could always give the dragon Mettle or immunity to Stunning somehow.

What would you do?

[olelia]

Shivering Touch?
Maximize- 18 dex
Average Empower - 5.25 <this is where math could fail me>
Grand Total - 23.25 Dex Damage

With assorted feats or spells like Assay Spell Resistance I hope that dragon has a WHOLE lotta dex.

[mostlyharmful]

Teleport. Every encounter is xp, just keep running away, the DM gets his jollies off and your PCs get to climb steadily until they can take this stupid Deus Ex. If the Dragon is in any way reasonable they'll be after something, the smart money is on giving it to them, if not then just keep bravely fleeing until the DM gets bored and gets on with the story.

[Innis Cabal]

You can't. If the DM is ready to TPK your going to die one way or another.

The Dragon probably has some contingancies planned, if he's a good villian, and will likely take you all down before you get a turn

[MammonAzrael]

And toss the Reach metamagic on there if you're paranoid. (and of course, if your DM allowed you to have Shivering Touch, there is virtually no reason you wouldn't prepare it.)

Outrun the slowest member of the party?

Surrender?

Bribe the ABD with gold/services/magic/shinies.

Polymorph cheese?

[thegurullamen]

You know, I....I think I saw this story once before...it was kinda like this, only a lot like it only not really...

[Zephyros]

1) Rediscover your character's religious side and pray to the almighty god of the campaign setting (aka the DM) and promise him u ll be a good boy ever forth...

2)Empower your atheistic side and kick this railroading mofo in the curb... Proceed with leaving after eating his lasagna :P

[AslanCross]

Shivering Touch?
Maximize- 18 dex
Average Empower - 5.25 <this is where math could fail me>
Grand Total - 23.25 Dex Damage

With assorted feats or spells like Assay Spell Resistance I hope that dragon has a WHOLE lotta dex.

I honestly don't think shivering touch is that good. Against a stupidly-played dragon that sits around on the floor the whole time, I guess it would be a guaranteed kill.

Against a dragon that actually uses its impressive fly speed (which I doubt even a flying wizard can catch up with), good luck. Bahamut forbid the dragon also actually casts haste on itself.

Also, shimmering scales. An ancient black would have a touch AC of 38 if it cast that. If the DM really wanted to TPK the party, he'd be able to do it.

Only thing I can think of is forcecage.

[Yukitsu]

The following is all sarcasm.

Plane shift your entire group to different and random planes, so he can only kill one of you, since you should all have something to protect vs. scrying by now. Buy items to boost your CL to 20. Cast simulacrum to gain anything capable of casting simulacrum with a caster level of 20. Vecna is my option of choice by all means, but you may prefer solars using wish, or pit fiends or whatever. Repeat ad nauseum until you can defeat the black dragon with your imaginary snowman army of gods. Prepare to be physically beat by the DM IRL, for your well deserved reward for beating the encounter.

Alternatively, again boost your caster level, and build as many scraps of paper with explosive runes written on them. Wrap up some skeletons so that they look like mummies in the papers, have them all rush the dragon and cast dispel magic on them, with a casting of the spell with a much, much lower CL. Take earthcasting and sanctum spell when making them, so that they bypass immunities when heightened to 7th level. (they become 9th) You won't bypass his SR often, but 1 in 20 of 5 billion is often enough for your purposes. Take the feat that causes undead that are destroyed to explode, so that you get to add that damage as well.

Retrain the fighter into an uber charger with 9 knives of luck, better lucky than good and a vorpal lance. Hope for the best.

Retrain your 9th level feat into "landlord" from the stronghold builders guide and make a hikikomori cube. If you go liche, you'll outlast the dragon in terms of dying of old age.

Dimplomancer the dragon.

Cast clone and hope the dragon doesn't double check to make sure you stay dead.

Spike the DMs drink. He'll make more mistakes that way.

Spike the DMs drink with sugar. He'll be so hyper that he'll play gears of war with you instead if you ask, and forget all about the dragon.

Tell your DM that you're dating his mom. He'll have something more important to be mad about, and will promptly forget about the dragon. Works better if this is a true statement, and you are not the DMs father.

Toss him a 20. Bribery fixes everything, if you're liberal enough in the application.

Lastly, take as many important NPCs out with you as you go. Teleport right into the largest, most important city in the setting, kill the king before the dragon can get you, sack the high priests temple. With a bit of luck, the breath weapon will wipe out you and a bunch of relevant NPCs.

Cast bestow curse on yourself, and curse yourself with an eternity in torment on the material plane. Torment is just a silly RP thing anyway.

Steal his notes when he isn't looking. If you swap the word "dragon" with "kitten" you'll get off easy.

[Raenir Salazar]

"If you're in an Epic campaign and your party is trying to disrupt the entire multiverse, send MECHANUS ITSELF after them. All the floating gears? They mesh together to form a plane-sized Inevitable."

Where did you find this awesome quote?

[Olo Demonsbane]

If you use forcecage...see here

[Mando Knight]

Here's the thing. In the OP, he said it has class levels, like maybe Sorcerer or Archmage levels. Just one would bump it up to CL 12, which allows it access to the 6th level Antimagic Field. Now all (or nearly all) of the Bat-Wizard's spells are useless (as it lacks the 9th level Mage's Disjunction or the Prismatic Sphere/Wall, and the dragon can just move around a Wall of Force)... but the Dragon is still a Dragon, and will be able to bite/claw/claw/slap its way into your wizard's face.

[Eldariel]

Depends on how much cheese is allowed and how optimized the Dragon is (a Dragon with Practiced Spellcaster, Awaken Spell Resistance, Animated, Quickened Breath Weapon and Charger-abilities is a totally different matter than a vanilla). Simpliest solution to Dragons though is sufficient amounts of violence. Dragons are no more immortal than any other creatures of the realms, so just focus your firepower on it and it'll come down.

Of course, since it's ancient, it'll have some quite potent defensive magic so having a dedicated dispeller to wreck its buffs before the rest of the party wrecks its body seems like a good idea. But the basic Empowered, Twinned, Maximized, Energy Admixtured Orb of X is a good starting point. Orb of Force if wary of resistances. And Air Walking party. And Phantom Steeds. Melee would probably have a hard time affecting it so let's just hope the party has no melee monkeys and focus on blowing it out of the sky or nibbling on its saves and SR with curses, Assay SR/Limited Wish, etc. until they're low enough to dominate the beast. Pet dragons are always fun.


EDIT: Most of Bat-Wizard's spells actually ignore AMF. Just BTW. Also Orbs, the easiest way to kill a high SR Dragon, ignore AMF. Just get rid of the critter's defensive magic (if it does it for you with AMF, thank it by violating it before killing it) and its meager Touch AC gives you an easy access straight to its HP, which are surprisingly low without Magic.

AMF essentially means the Dragon denies herself magic while the PCs still have full access to theirs (thanks to Contingency, it's impossible to get them into the AMF in one turn). Fool's errand. The Dragon is much better off using the same list of tools the PCs have combined with it's breath and physical power (and AoOs).

[Olo Demonsbane]

Dragons, when played properly, can be insanely powerful. I made a Dragon Druid/Mystic Theurge/Archmage. Then I put alarm bells leading to her lair...Which the characters would trip automatically as they travelled. Then she readied an action to cast forcecage and antimagic field. Then she spent the 11 turns while the characters were just sitting there buffing herself up to uber strength. Unfortanetly, our cleric rolled really well on a targeted dispel magic, and the characters ended up defeating her in three turns .

So, beware the dragon caster. Not as useless as some might think .

[Darrin]

What would you do?

I'd probably try the "Dust of Sneezing and Choking Lite":

Lesser Planar Ally/Planar Binding. Grab a Dune Stalker, tell the dragon to pucker up for a Kiss of Death. Even on a successful save, dragon is stunned for one round.

But that won't work if the DM gives the dragon any immunity to stun.

If that won't work... I'd probably go with maximized Ray of Clumsiness or Shivering Touch.

[Flickerdart]

The question we need to be asking is this.

How good is your DM at optimizing? If he has to roll up an Ancient Black Dragon just to kill you, he doesn't seem to be all that good.

Demand plot from him. Why is this trying to kill you? What did you do to it? Then blast it with a scroll of Disjunction and touch AC DEX debuffs. Or the metamagicked Orbs of horrible death.

[KevLar]

Does the party have a Diplomancer? Problem solved.

Does the party NOT have a Diplomancer and/or there are relevant house rules which make rushed diplomacy checks ineffective? Attempt to flee.

[Grommen]

The question we need to be asking is this.

How good is your DM at optimizing? If he has to roll up an Ancient Black Dragon just to kill you, he doesn't seem to be all that good.

Demand plot from him. Why is this trying to kill you? What did you do to it? Then blast it with a scroll of Disjunction and touch AC DEX debuffs. Or the metamagicked Orbs of horrible death.

Ok nothing personal here but it just struck me as funny.

The plot is that the DM is simply sick of these characters and wants them all dead. Or at the least humbled and willing not to railroad every NPC they run across. These things happen from time to time. DM's get sick of loosing every fight and once and a wile want to actually win one. After all they have the knowledge of every character in the party. It's not that hard to build something capable of walloping the snot out of them. Hell it's kinda fun :)

All kidding aside here. You do realize you have to actually TOUCH the dragon. That means your like right up in his wheel house. How many spell casters are going to live past round 1? Assuming that the dragon will go last? I mean I'm just seeing a wizard running up to this big ass black dragon with his hand out glowing and screaming "SNEEKY WIZARD TOUCH ATTACK!". It's just not going to end well.

My advice: RUN LIKE HELL BOYS. That dragon can only kill and eat one of you a round (Ok well he can kill more than one with his breath weapon but if you scatter real quick). I'm sure their is a rule somewhere that states you can only eat one PC a round (if not their should be).

Second part, hope you can stay alive long enough for the dragon to devlope Altzhmers and forget he wants to eat you. Short of that your pretty much boned.

Please I'm not trying to start a fight here. It's funny to me. We try to keep the blood lust down but it builds from one wrecked plot hook to the next. Sometimes the players have to die to keep the DM sane.

Were all pullen for ya. Perhaps your DM will be happy with the Batman Wizard, see if you can give him up as a sacrifice.

[Leewei]

Dragons have poor touch AC and relatively weak Reflex saves. Black Dragons have a powerful Acid attack as well as dragon fear.

Heroes' feast the party to gain immunity to fear for 12 hours.

Use energy immunity to mitigate the breath attacks.

Hit it with a Tanglefoot Bag using a ranged attack to reduce its movement and Dexterity bonus. Also, cast greater dispel magic to strip the numerous buff spells it will have up. Your casters will need to roll an 11 or 12 to beat the expected SR: 25. Items that boost CL and aid rolls to overcome SR will no doubt be very handy. Some examples are Robe of the Archmagi and Prayer Bead of Karma.

Nearly all spells have Verbal components. Have a Bard, Cleric or Beguiler hang back with a readied action to cast silence if the dragon begins to throw a spell. Use the area version which offers no save.

Full Attack actions suck from Dragons. Keep the fight ranged and hobble the dragon's movement and senses. Look for Reflex-save-or-Blind spells and effects.

The Dust of Sneezing and Choking isn't a bad idea, but keep in mind that it is useless in the water where the dragon is likely to be. It is also arguably a Poison effect, which means that the DM may arbitrate immunity to the dragon.

Make the beast come to you, and then punish it. If it won't come to you, reduce its move, staple it with arrows, and continue to lock down its casting ability.

Summon some critters and use benign transposition to get any combatants out of reach before the dragon can pull a Full Attack.

Just some thoughts.

[Who_Da_Halfling]

Wait a week or so to see how Vaarsuvius manages it?

-JM

[tyckspoon]

O
All kidding aside here. You do realize you have to actually TOUCH the dragon. That means your like right up in his wheel house. How many spell casters are going to live past round 1? Assuming that the dragon will go last? I mean I'm just seeing a wizard running up to this big ass black dragon with his hand out glowing and screaming "SNEEKY WIZARD TOUCH ATTACK!". It's just not going to end well.

If you can apply Shivering Touch at all, you generally only need one. You only need to roll 7 or better to disable a Dragon if you Empower it, and it's a certainty if you Maximize it. That said, Person_Man specified that the dragon was built-to-order to null the party's best tricks. So if you assume a Wizard who knows Shivering Touch, that dragon has probably found a way to be immune to cold and/or ability damage. It's almost certainly using Scintillating Scales, since there are so many ways to get completely boned by touch attacks, and it might be using Cat's Grace/a +Dex item to help with its weak point there. That has the double benefit of letting the Dragon qualify for Dodge and Elusive Target, which it can use to negate the party's charger/generic Power Attack melee damager. It'll take Practiced Spellcaster to get its own caster level up and maybe be wearing a Ring of Enduring Arcana for further protection against having its protections dispelled.

I wouldn't bother trying to kill the thing with anything shy of maybe some of the Dirty Tricks, which are beyond the range of 'semi-high optimized'. Just run away, preferably with some means of teleportation, and hope the dragon doesn't somehow have access to Anticipate Teleport/Trace Teleport/Divert Destination.

[Eldariel]

I wouldn't bother trying to kill the thing with anything shy of maybe some of the Dirty Tricks, which are beyond the range of 'semi-high optimized'. Just run away, preferably with some means of teleportation, and hope the dragon doesn't somehow have access to Anticipate Teleport/Trace Teleport/Divert Destination.

Just dispel its buffs and proceed with your normal plan. It's an evil Dragon, so it kinda sucks as a spellcaster.

[AslanCross]

Hit it with a Tanglefoot Bag using a ranged attack to reduce its movement and Dexterity bonus.

Huge or larger creatures are immune to Tanglefoot bag. The item's description says this.

A lot of this also assumes that the party is actually hunting for the dragon and that the dragon isn't actually hunting (ie, is prepared) for them.

The way Person_Man makes it sound is that the dragon is coming for them, and that it can cast better than usual. I'm pretty sure the party won't go up to a sleeping dragon, as per the cliche, and kill it so quickly it won't know what's going on.

I can't assume I know what Person_Man's DM is thinking, but I'd always make a black dragon encounter an ambush in a swamp. It hides in deep water, uses its blindsense to detect them coming, and surfaces and showers them with acid before they know it's there. (That's what I did with my party against an Adult black. They were able to take it down, but I needed to give them some servings of fudge so they'd actually be able to continue.

[Renx]

EDIT: Most of Bat-Wizard's spells actually ignore AMF. Just BTW. Also Orbs, the easiest way to kill a high SR Dragon, ignore AMF. Just get rid of the critter's defensive magic (if it does it for you with AMF, thank it by violating it before killing it) and its meager Touch AC gives you an easy access straight to its HP, which are surprisingly low without Magic.

AMF essentially means the Dragon denies herself magic while the PCs still have full access to theirs (thanks to Contingency, it's impossible to get them into the AMF in one turn). Fool's errand. The Dragon is much better off using the same list of tools the PCs have combined with it's breath and physical power (and AoOs).

...okay, what? HOW THE BLOODY FARK do you ignore AMF ?

[Eldariel]

Unless you are actually like...grappled inside it (and seeing that your contingency went off just when you were about to enter the AMF, that's bloody unlikely), your spells such as Orbs, Walls, etc. work just fine inside it Basically, every effect that is in itself non-magical is completely unhindered by AMF. Also, a spell does exist that allows you to cast a spell inside AMF, but I'm not bringing that into the argument as vs. a Dragon, it's an overkill.

[Reaper_Monkey]

Demand plot from him. Why is this trying to kill you? What did you do to it?

The problem is, that PC's have always done something to ask for it.

[hamishspence]

Where does it say orbs/walls work inside the field? normally, conjurations are suppressed inside the field, except for wall of force, prismatic wall, prismatic sphere (See Rules Compendium)

[Eldariel]

The walls with instantaneous durations are only magical when summoned. After that they're mundane walls. So Wall of Stone and Wall of Iron among others are effectively unaffected. And Orbs are non-magical after creation as per description; Anti-Magic Field doesn't affect non-magical things.

[Myou]

Where does it say orbs/walls work inside the field? normally, conjurations are suppressed inside the field, except for wall of force, prismatic wall, prismatic sphere (See Rules Compendium)

As I understand it they can't be cast in an AMF but the field doesn't affect them if they enter it after casting, because they're no longer magical at that point.

[hamishspence]

good point. Still, if the space is cramped and you can only cast within the field, you can't cast the orbs or walls.