Wizard or Sorcerer? [3.5]

[CyberRebirth]

So, I may be joining a campaign with a friend and his family, and he said that they need some arcane artillery. I decide that I would like to play a sorcerer, my preferred of the two classes, because he gets more spells per day, and can pick any of them to cast.

My friend says I should play a wizard, because they get more spells known. He says the spells per day problem can be averted by scrolls or wands.

Here is my problem, I think that the spells known problem with the sorcerer could ALSO be averted by wands and scrolls.

So I would like the opinion of the GitP forums. Which do you prefer, and why?

[Hat-Trick]

Sorcerer, if you want to blast the crap out of the enemy. But, if you're expecting to be utility or control, probably a wizard.

[Assassin89]

I am relatively neutral on both classes, but you should choose the class you are most familiar with.

[monty]

Sorcerers are much easier to play, and tend to make better blasters (because you don't need very many spells known as a blaster). However, wizards are far more powerful if you're willing to put the work in. That said, sorcerers aren't exactly weak either.

[CyberRebirth]

I wasn't exactly needing to blast things a whole ton, due to having a warlock in the party, but blasting would still be nice.

I favor the sorcerer due to on the fly versitility(sp).

[Raenir Salazar]

It is a REALLY REALLY hard choice to make and is something you need to consider, yes the Sorcerer gets more spells per day, but you are also more predictable, you can get around this a small amount with archmage levels and wands and staffs and etc, but you won't nessasarily have that wealth on hand and takes precious feat slots ild think.

Basically you need to balance is getting a few spells many times per day that much more important then getting a few less spells but ten times more diversity?

It depends on the campaign, is it a campaign where xp comes slowly? Then lower level power might be more important. If xp is at least same speed as in NWN2 or standard DnD then you might be better with having a wizard.

But then again, a Sorceror built for its metamagic feats with empower/maximized is possibly unequaled in DPR.

Hopefully you can get Archmage levels so you can change his elements.

[Innis Cabal]

You won't have versitility with a sorc.

The question you need to ask yourself is this. "Will I cast this 6 times per day, everyday for the rest of my time playing this character?"

If the answer is no, its a spell that can be put on a wand/scroll. If the answer is yes, then you pick it. You get precious few spells know as a sorc, and they are two few to waste on a "once and a while spell"

[monty]

But then again, a Sorceror built for its metamagic feats with empower/maximized is possibly unequaled in DPR.

My wizard who does 40+4d4 negative levels out of a 4th level slot would like to disagree with you.

[CyberRebirth]

I was actually thinking about Archmage, Raenir, but they're only about level 3 now.

[Grommen]

I tend to use NPC sorcs a lot. Personally it's Wizards all the way for me cause I like being as versatile as possible. I made a epic level Sorc for a friends Girlfriend who was joining us on the end of a major campaign. I have to say I out did myself on that one. Sorc turning into an Archmage is a very nasty thing. Though it would not hurt them to add a few feats to the Archmage class. They are very one dimensional and predictable. I think that is the main reason I don't like them. In my mind anyway. How many fireballs does one need to toss in a day anyway?

[valadil]

I've played both quite a bit. My wizards are more powerful, but my sorcerers are more fun. What it comes down to is figuring out when you want your character to make decisions. Wizards predict what they'll be facing. When they get into combat they either have a solution handy or they don't. Sorcerers react to what they're fighting and cobble together the best solution they can from more limited resources.

Both can use scrolls to make up for their own deficiencies, but scrolls are more of an advantage to the wizard since they're cheaper for him.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My wizard who does 40+4d4 negative levels out of a 4th level slot would like to disagree with you.

You can do the same thing with a Sorcerer, Incantatrix is an equal-opportunity class for Sorcerers and Wizards, arguabally more powerful for Sorcerers because they can get away with ditching a single school, wheras it can cripple a specialist wizard to loose yet another school.

To the OP:

It really depends on what your party needs. Do they need someone who digs through musty tomes and can pick up those 'once in a lifetime' type spells, a general arcanist who can ready a spell for any occasion, or do they have that covered, and just need someone who can do a whole lot of battlefield control?

Sorcerers are awesome battlefield control specialists. You can pick up 'save or loose' spells based on each save, and a few 'no save, just loose' type spells just to be safe. Enervation will, of course, have to be a must. Rope Trick is one of the few 'utility' spells extremely worth it for you to learn, although later on you may want to trade it out in favor of a Wand.

Spells you'll want: Stinking Cloud, Haste, Slow, Enervation, Cloudkill, Disintegrate. Later on, Greater Shadow Evocation.

For now, at level three, let's see... you've got a Warlock, so Magic Missile isn't very effective unless you're having to blast a LOT of mooks. Grease would be a good battlefield control spell. Enlarge Person is a good buff for your tank. Sleep may start to loose effectiveness now that you're level 3, and will likely not encounter anything with less than four HD, so don't bother. Likewise with Fear. Color Spray may be a good one to pick up, though.

[Seffbasilisk]

My wizard who does 40+4d4 negative levels out of a 4th level slot would like to disagree with you.

Mind winging the build for that my way? Even with Arcane Thesis (Enervation) that seems a bit overinflated.

[Lerky]

"The magic of a wizard is like a finely tuned watch, where the magic of the sorcerer is like...a rubber mallet!"
-Profesor Xavier (Start of Darkness)

a quote that I found amusing
anyway, depends on your character (RP style). Is he the reckless risk taker or the booky clear thinkier? Sorcerers tend to be a more chaotic and crazy type while Wizards are well learned and stuffy. Honestly the diffrence isn't much since it evens out, but it matters mostly in playing style to me.

I'd say sorcerer though, since it was your first choice, I think that's what you should choose.

[CyberRebirth]

@Shneekey: That's what I always like to play, is the guy who uses things like disintegrate and Flesh to Stone, Save or Die/Save or Lose are my favorite types of spells.

Though my all time favorite is bestow curse. (I was once a trickster mage that knew bestow curse and remove curse )

Ok, so party stats, They have a Warlock, a Ranger, a Cleric, and a Rogue/Bard.

[Yukitsu]

If you have to ask, a good rule of thumb is sorcerer until you get used to playing arcanists and get sick of not having any spell in your repertoire be functional over a few in game encounters. Apparantly you have experience though so a wizard is almost always better.

[Mando Knight]

But then again, a Sorceror built for its metamagic feats with empower/maximized is possibly unequaled in DPR.

Not really. Without the appropriate splatbooks, spontaneous metamagic becomes a full-round action, whereas a wizard can put out two spells a turn using a normal spell and a Quickened Spell. Spells/Day isn't that limiting as you get to higher levels or specialize... and you do get higher level spells sooner. Thus you get to Save-Or-X spells sooner...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

@Shneekey: That's what I always like to play, is the guy who uses things like disintegrate and Flesh to Stone, Save or Die/Save or Lose are my favorite types of spells.

Though my all time favorite is bestow curse. (I was once a trickster mage that knew bestow curse and remove curse )

Ok, so party stats, They have a Warlock, a Ranger, a Cleric, and a Rogue/Bard.

Hmmm... you may actually want to consider Wizard, then. Bard/Rogue is hardly optimized, and since he's splitting classes, he won't have the spell capability that a normal bard will, which means you need to be able to pull almost any magic trick out of your hat.

Sure, you could probably do this with a Sorcerer, using Mage of the Arcane Order to pull Spell O The Day out of your... wherever... and using scrolls/wands to cover all the extra bases, but they may well need someone who can, for example, decide to memorize Identify several times for the next day or three because we just hit the motherlode of magic items.

Really, it's up to you. I like Sorcerers. They're fun to play, and easy on the headaches, both for the player and for the GM. But with a party like this, Wizard is also a strong option.

[monty]

Mind winging the build for that my way? Even with Arcane Thesis (Enervation) that seems a bit overinflated.

Incantatrix level 10 plus Arcane Thesis reduces all metamagic by two, with no minimum for Arcane Thesis. Base 1d4 negative levels. Fell Drain - level +0, total 1d4+1 (subsequent numbers assume this applies to each instance of the effect). Split Ray - level +0, total 2d4+2. Twin Spell, Easy Metamagic - level +1, total 4d4+4. Repeat Spell, EM - level +0, total 8d4+8. Maximize Spell, EM - level +0, total 40. Empower Spell - level +0, total 40+4d4. Invisible Spell - level -1, total 40+4d4.

Net adjustment: +1 Twin Spell, -1 Invisible Spell, 0 all others = 0 adjustment.
Total investment: 11 feats. Easier if you can Chaos Shuffle, but possible without (7 plus 1 wizard plus 4 from Incantatrix minus 1 for Iron Will gives you exactly enough).

[EndlessWrath]

Think of the person behind the stats.. decide what he's like and play off of that.

They're both really powerful (since arcane magic is the most powerful magic in 3.5)... I would also consider Warlock.

Spoiler

Show

Although you didn't mention them, warlocks are just fun... They have even less versatility than Sorcerors ... but can use the spell-like abilities...every turn.. non stop... every day. You can choose a lot of Utility based Invocations because you auto gain a nuke that's a ranged touch attack.

you of course don't have to play warlock. I would consider a second factor however. Sorcerers can cast spontaneously... as the need arises. Wizards you have to worry which spells to pick and if they'll be useful... and it's difficult to rearrange them legally. so a handful of spell varieties for your sorcerer and you can use them however you wish. need invisability 5 times? Done. oops... don't need that fifth invis, You need a nuke... fixed. plus i find them more charming .

Finally. do whichever will let you have more fun... cause that's what d&d is about.

[AmberVael]

I'd go with Sorcerer.

Less book keeping, more spells per day, less worrying over what spell to cast (you have versatile slots and a smaller spell list, meaning there is less deliberation for you), aren't dependent on a book for your powers, and due to your Charisma you get into all the parties while the wizard nerds out in the library reading old books.

Less powerful? Yes, but you're still pretty powerful. More fun? Hell yeah- at least for me.

[Leon]

S I decide that I would like to play a sorcerer, my preferred of the two classes

Go with what you like

[Eldrys]

I would totally go sorcerer. In my experience all my sorcerer builds have been able to stay in combat for more than a milisecond without going negative. But wizards.....not so much I mean if you have fighter or a barbarian even a paladin or cleric, wizards are more powerful and can just blast from behind a meatsheild but I like to get my hands dirty and get in there so I would go sorcerer. (but its okay if you don't)

[monty]

I would totally go sorcerer. In my experience all my sorcerer builds have been able to stay in combat for more than a milisecond without going negative. But wizards.....not so much I mean if you have fighter or a barbarian even a paladin or cleric, wizards are more powerful and can just blast from behind a meatsheild but I like to get my hands dirty and get in there so I would go sorcerer. (but its okay if you don't)

Well, you could always take the Animal Companion variant. It's like having your own personal fighter. Plus, if it dies, you can just get another one tomorrow!

[tyckspoon]

I would totally go sorcerer. In my experience all my sorcerer builds have been able to stay in combat for more than a milisecond without going negative. But wizards.....not so much I mean if you have fighter or a barbarian even a paladin or cleric, wizards are more powerful and can just blast from behind a meatsheild but I like to get my hands dirty and get in there so I would go sorcerer. (but its okay if you don't)

Huh. What do you do differently with your Sorcerers? Unless you always take the Battle Sorcerer variant, Wizards and Sorcerers should be about equally fragile- same low HD, same attribute hierarchy (Casting stat and then Dex/Con), same protective spells. Is it just that a Sorc's extra spells/day makes you more willing to pop a spell on Mage Armor/Mirror Image/Blur/Whatever?

[Who_Da_Halfling]

Beguiler :-)

Just kidding. Honestly, it depends. If your party is going to be heavily optimized, then it's more important to bring more to the table.

However, as a for instance, the group I DM for just likes having fun with it and doesn't really care that much about optimizing themselves. They aren't going to do something that's clearly worse than something else, but they're not spending hours planning out exactly what spells or what prestige class they may want in 3 levels.

If your group is just in it for fun and doesn't really care about Being All That They Can Be, then play a sorcerer. High Charisma can be fun, as can blasting things, and it's less work. Plus, you already like playing one, so just go for it.

-JM

[Aquillion]

Sorcerer, if you want to blast the crap out of the enemy. But, if you're expecting to be utility or control, probably a wizard.

This is a common misconception. In actuality, it's backwards -- sorcerers make comparatively poor blasters because they're weak at metamagic, which is one of blasting's few advantages and the only way to really get anything good out of it. On top of this, sorcerers have access to only a limited number of spells; most blasting spells either have many more situations when they're useless or weak (especially when you lack metamagic) or stop scaling eventually, and most of them are extremely redundant, making them very bad choices for a sorcerer to put into their limited slots.

On top of this, wizards can specialize, and even become a Focused Specialist if you want; this gives them as many slots as sorcerers (more, actually, because they're a spell level ahead) and is a logical choice if you want to go heavy blasting (you get lots of powerful blasting, you're a spell level ahead of the sorcerer, you get good metamagic and bonus metamagic feats, and unlike warmages or the like you still get to keep at least some of your other spells.) If you want to optimize, wizards make far better blasters than sorcerers, especially if you go Focused Specialist in conjuration or something along those lines. (Focused Specialist in Evocation is certainly suboptimal but could still be fun, especially if you want to throw around tons of evocations while still keeping at least some variety -- you'll still get massively more spells to choose from than a sorcerer, even banning three schools.)

Of course, if you want to play a sorcerer, just play a sorcerer, they're still plenty good. But if you're talking optimization, no, sorcerers have nothing going for them as blasters, and in fact have many disadvantages at blasting in particular because of the heavy link between optimized blasting and metamagic.

[Belobog]

On terms of power level, it doesn't really matter which you choose. Most would say Wizard is better, but honestly, I could never get past the whole 'preparing a list of spells from this immense tome every day for the rest of my life if I want to be useful' thing. Kind of got in the way of the fun for me.

A good rule of thumb for Sorcerer, though, is to take a damage dealing spell every two spell levels, and to restrict yourself to those spells for damage capability. Use the rest of your slots for useful things like buffing or debilitating or just plain rewriting the fabric of the universe. You only get a few, you might as well make them count.

[Waspinator]

On a side note, some Eternal Wands from the Magic Item Compendium can really help with getting utility spells available.

[Aquillion]

On terms of power level, it doesn't really matter which you choose. Most would say Wizard is better, but honestly, I could never get past the whole 'preparing a list of spells from this immense tome every day for the rest of my life if I want to be useful' thing. Kind of got in the way of the fun for me.

You know you don't actually have to do it personally, just your character, right? (Oh, if only this were true... sooo many groups can probably attest otherwise. )

Anyway, the sorcerer's biggest disadvantages are:

* It takes a full round to apply metamagic (which makes Quicken, one of the best metamagic feats out there, totally useless and makes the other ones hard to use, especially if you want to take advantage of initiative. Remember, a full-round action means that the spell isn't cast until the start of your next round -- this is generally no good.) This one is, thankfully, fixable, but it's still a pain if you don't.

* You miss out on bonus metamagic feats (of course, if you're optimizing enough to care about all this, then you're probably PRCing out of either class as soon as possible anyway, but it should still be mentioned. At a bare minimum you're still likely missing Scribe Scroll and one Metamagic feat.)

* You are a full spell level behind the wizard in terms of spell access. This is a huge disadvantage, and probably the primary reason why the wizard is better. Understand: This means that half the time, you are, for the most important feature of your character, for practical purposes one level lower than a wizard. Yes, you still get full CL and so on, but spell access is your most important 'class feature', the one that will ultimately decide how much you can contribute when the party really needs it; it really is like being level 6 when your wizard is level 7, or level 4 when your wizard is level 5, and so on. Being a sorcerer is like taking an LA +1 race that recovers your CL but gives you very little else worth the sacrifice.

These are all very big things to lose. None of them are worth it. An expanded list to prepare from vs. having easy access to every spell you know might be a valid trade-off otherwise... but that's not the trade-off you're getting, and people who argue "preparing vs. spells known" are missing the point. Spells known might be an alright alternative for casting if they were on even ground otherwise, but it is not, by any standard, worth multiple feats, your ability to effectively use metamagic, and an effective +1 LA where it matters most.