The Clausterphobic Paladin

[notagain111]

If a paladin were to have the clausterphobic flaw (or any other fear-inducing flaw) would his class ability that makes him immune to fear prevent the fear from the flaw? Some how it makes sense to me that it would prevent the fear, as say, the fear was beaten out of him in paladin training or some such. Although, from a DM's stand point it just seems like a cheesy way to get a free feat instead of a more silly/interesting character.
Your thoughts?

[Dublock]

I don't have any source material in front of me but I remember that the flaws were excluded from the immunity that pally gives.

[Edge of Dreams]

The way I see it, Paladins are immune to magical and otherwise game-mechanical fear effects, not immune to being afraid of something.

To paraphrase a great quote I can't remember, "Courage isn't not being afraid. That's stupidity. Courage is being afraid and doing what needs to be done anyway."

[kamikasei]

The way I see it, Paladins are immune to magical and otherwise game-mechanical fear effects, not immune to being afraid of something.

Presumably the flaw means that if you're in a confined space you are subject to a fear effect and attendant mechanical penalties. So taking the flaw and saying that you're immune to the mechanics but still feel the fear means you're effectively ignoring it (you're not taking a mechanical penalty to justify the mechanical bonus of the flaw-granted feat; if you want to play as scared of small spaces but able to work through it, you should do so without the feat).

OP: you are the DM. You have to judge whether a flaw a player is asking for actually constitues enough of a penalty to balance the feat it grants. This has to be judged on an individual basis for every character and flaw. They are a minefield of cheese and should not be made available carte blanche. In a case like this, if you decide that a paladin is immune to the fear effects of claustrophobia, he shouldn't be allowed to take the flaw.

Personally I'd say a paladin is immune to the various game-mechanical fear states, though not necessarily to fear itself; a paladin might be afraid, but will do whatever he has to do anyway with no impairment. It's the Litany Against Fear. Therefore I wouldn't allow any kind of phobic flaw for such a character. (How to deal with a character who starts with a flaw going in to a class granting fear immunity at a later level is an open question. I'd say it highlights the importance of communicating with your players about their plans for their characters.)

[Tsotha-lanti]

A cloisterphobic paladin would probably stay away from secluded monasteries and the like.

[bosssmiley]

A cloisterphobic paladin would probably stay away from secluded monasteries and the like.

Whyzat? They live in coastal shallows. I don't think I heard of one living in an abbey.

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[Malacode]

I'd say they were afraid to don their armour, if it were fullplate or similar. It's an enclosed space, after all and I don't think putting on your armour would trigger a 'fear' effect. There's a mechanical disadvantage right there.

Oh, and Bosssmiley gets one free cookie from me

[Tsotha-lanti]

I'd say they were afraid to don their armour, if it were fullplate or similar. It's an enclosed space, after all and I don't think putting on your armour would trigger a 'fear' effect. There's a mechanical disadvantage right there.

Armor is no more an "enclosed space" than clothing is. Getting edgy over the way a great helm or barbute limits their vision I could see, but there's no reason they couldn't just wear a visorless bascinet.

[notagain111]

I'm not actually a DM right now. i was just browsing through stuff, found the flaws and just thought "What if" Paladins are kind of lacking in the higher levels anyways, so a few cheesy feats can't hurt, can they? :P

[hamishspence]

shouldn't he be staying away from The Guy in the Flying Reindeer Sled?

[hamlet]

Choosing the claustrophobic (all ya'll spelling kills kittens every time you write it out wrong) flaw and then claiming that the Paladin's immunity to fear defeats all mechanical effects of that flaw is, in my book, using the word of the rule to defeat the intent of the rule.

A player at my table who tried that would feel my wrath immediately. Such wrath would probably consist of a squirt gun filled with warm Gatorade, but still . . .

Honestly, it's bad form.

[Atamasama]

I'd rule that the phobia doesn't actually instill fear in the paladin, but rather makes him want to avoid claustrophobic situations. For example, if he falls into a hole accidentally his immunity to fear will prevent him from panicking, but if the group wanted to enter a tight space he'd have to make a will save to agree to accompany them. The phobia could in fact lead to the paladin being forced by his flaw into choices that go against his code, and as a DM I would make sure to have him sweat that out a few times as punishment for what is an obvious attempt at cheese.

[Fawsto]

I seccond Edge here. The Paladin fears tigh spaces, but does not take any penalty from it. Now, this does not, however, is enought to count as a flaw, so do this only RP wise, you are not getting the feat.


Unless, your DM understands teh following: The Paladin will not wilingly get inside small and unconfortable places, however, if he is in such position facing a dire situation, he will not face the mechanical penalties due to being afraid.

This means that, if this Pally is not RPed well, I would cut his flaw and his extra feat.

[hamishspence]

Irritable mutterings about the cramped spaces, and loud "Quit Talking About It!!" snappish remarks when the dwarf enthusiastically points out they have thousands of tonnes of rock overhead seem appropiate.

I wonder- phobia can be gotten other ways than Flaws- through the Taint system in Heroes of Horror or the Sanity system in Unearthed Arcana- so, how do rules handle this?

[Person_Man]

I call shenanigans. Flaws are a potent and often abused optional rule. You shouldn't be able to take one and then negate the effects of it with a class ability or clever build idea.

[Devils_Advocate]

Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).

It's unclear whether paladins are meant to still feel fear itself. But regardless, they are immune to its effects, whatever the source.

Generally speaking, a character should not qualify for a flaw if something else would entirely negate the penalty. If this isn't spelled out, it should be.

I'd rule that if a character originally qualified for a flaw but later does not, then he loses both the flaw the next feat he would normally get at hit dice divisible by three.

In the case of the paladin, it's not entirely meaningless, since it still applies when and if he falls. And as others have pointed out, he might still be unusually adverse to closed spaces, even if he isn't a coward about it. But that still mitigates the flaw so much that I probably wouldn't allow it.

[hamishspence]

given that its possible to have both phobias and paladins in a campaign, and that a 3rd level paladin exposed to Taint, for example, could roll up a Phobia, i'd say, the specific phobia rules would override the general Immunity to Fear effects.

seems like a reasonable exception to make.