OOTS #628 - The Discussion Thread

[Ridureyu]

Dear Dragon:

Do it. DOOOOO EEEEEEET

I'm not a heartless monster, but I'm looking at two possibilities.

1. V responds to the THREAT of dead children by going momma/poppa bear mode, gaining eeeeeeeeeevil power, and kicking tail.

2. V's children (and probably mate) are killed. V is ruined, broken, and destroyed, and gives up everything to gain the eeeeeeevil power. And V can blame nobody but his/her own attitude and actions.


See?

[Gareshra]

Yeah V totally had this coming. Time to gain some well needed humility, and if it's at the loss of some NPC's, then oh well. This dragon is awesome.

[iamseph]

I should point out that True Resurrection requires 25,000gc, not 5000gc. Big difference when all that has to be in diamonds and you have no horde. Even finding that many diamonds could take years and make a lot of enemies.
And you don't just find level 17+ evil clerics just knocking about the countryside wavings signs. They keep themselves quiet, because if they don't then DMs might notice them and leave clues for an adventuring party to find.

[thubby]

2. V's children (and probably mate) are killed. V is ruined, broken, and destroyed, and gives up everything to gain the eeeeeeevil power. And V can blame nobody but his/her own attitude and actions.


See?

V can blame anybody, he's the kind of guy where nothing is ever his fault. he could blame Haley for getting lost, or roy for jumping the dragon. or something i haven't thought of.

[Mando Knight]

If V knew of a place/way to get a true res,

*Cough*Durkon*Cough*
No, V doesn't know anyone who can resurrect the dragon from the ashes that are dissolved into the swamp water. Because he/she obviously hasn't been traveling with a similar-level cleric for a year. And swamp-water-dissolved ashes obviously don't count as remnants of the dragon. (they might not count for resurrection unless they can concentrate enough of the ashes into one place, though...)

[Shosuro Ishii]

I only pray that the dragon gets better treatment than Kabuto did.

I like blurring the line between good and evil that Rich does so well. I was kinda hoping the dragon would kill V.

[Ryusacerdos]

"Children" in quotation marks imply to me shes going to "kill" V's children metaphorically - by neuter/spaying.

[Dausuul]

Great comic as usual. I especially love the panel where the dragon bellows "NOTHING!" The "vibration effect" is brilliantly done there and clearly conveys the sensation of the ground shaking.

"Children" in quotation marks imply to me shes going to "kill" V's children metaphorically - by neuter/spaying.

Quotation marks? I see no quotation marks. Only bold face.

[Finwe]

*Cough*Durkon*Cough*
No, V doesn't know anyone who can resurrect the dragon from the ashes that are dissolved into the swamp water. Because he/she obviously hasn't been traveling with a similar-level cleric for a year. And swamp-water-dissolved ashes obviously don't count as remnants of the dragon. (they might not count for resurrection unless they can concentrate enough of the ashes into one place, though...)

Durkon is certainly incapable of casting True Resurrection, a 9th level spell. He's at least 3 levels away. Also, it's unlikely that the dissolved ashes would count as "remains" because they're so dilute. Also, getting 25,000 gp in diamonds is no small task, either.

[lordhaw]

Can a dragon even be resurrected? Can't say the thought ever crossed my mind in my D&D days...of course the usual "Slay everything that moves to get the XP and treasure" mentality was rather pervasive in my group until much later on.

Great strip...now I'm on the edge of my seat for the next one!

[Finwe]

Can a dragon even be resurrected? Can't say the thought ever crossed my mind in my D&D days...of course the usual "Slay everything that moves to get the XP and treasure" mentality was rather pervasive in my group until much later on.

Great strip...now I'm on the edge of my seat for the next one!

Yes, they can. Almost any creature can.

In fact, if V were thinking during the battle, he could have taken part of the silver dragon's head, and Durkon could have resurrected it once they got on the boat, giving them a powerful new ally.

[holywhippet]

Why doesn't the dragon just get V to pay for a true ressurection?

a) Cost. A true ressurection costs 25,000 gp worth of diamonds. V may not have that much loot on hand.

b) Scarcity. As Belkar commented a number of strips back, about the only cleric they might know who can cast level 9 spells is Redcloak.

[Blanth]

"We may be through with the past, but the past ain't through with us."

[Ridureyu]

V can blame anybody, he's the kind of guy where nothing is ever his fault. he could blame Haley for getting lost, or roy for jumping the dragon. or something i haven't thought of.

Oh, of course. V is kind of like Miko in that way - you know, Miko, who is probably in hell right now, saying, "I categorically refuse to believe that this is not the Lawful Good HEaven. Thus, the gods are just playing with me, their greatest servant, who singlehandedly killed the evil Xykon, Roy, and that horrible ghost who pretended to be Soon."

[Vizen]

Dear gods! Im not going to read through 8 pages of discussion....Yet.

But did anyone else notice that the little bit of spit that came out of the dragons mouth sizzled on the ground? Acid. Scary.

[xv bones]

And V can blame nobody but his/her own attitude and actions.

Yeah V totally had this coming. Time to gain some well needed humility, and if it's at the loss of some NPC's, then oh well.

V is female. An evil female, but female.

Yes. Vaarsuvius clearly had this coming, after she:

1) Saved the party from a Chimera

2) Saved the party from a Hydra

3) Saved the party from the young Black that Momma Black is avenging. It should be noted here that V saved Haley directly from the young Black, as she had been ingested.

5) Saved Belkar from Miko

4) Saved several hundred lives at the Battle of Azure City, expending almost all of her spells and putting her own life in dire risk against the Titanium Elementals and the Death Knight. All of those deserters ONLY lived to desert because V held shut the breach.

5) Saved the refugee ship from Zombie/Goblin attack by tutoring Elan in the appropriate means of creating a believable illusion.

6) Saved the leaders of the refugee fleet from a four-hundred-foot demon.

7) Executed a traitorous lord, thus preventing him from weaseling out of repercussions, and as such indirectly saving the party, as well as the refugee fleet.

Yes, of course.

It is all clear to me.

V is evil and must be punished.

V can blame anybody, he's the kind of guy where nothing is ever his fault. he could blame Haley for getting lost, or roy for jumping the dragon. or something i haven't thought of.

So the part where V says "I deny nothing", thus taking full responsibility for her actions escaped you?


Where is it written that a hero, a true form good guy, has to be humble and pleasant to be around and all that, in order to remain a hero and a true form good guy?

[Lord Seth]

This is yet another comic that I would've found a lot more dramatic if this hadn't been yet another cutaway from the plot I've been waiting 100+ strips to be resolved.

[EmeraldPhoenix]

Varsuvius. Has. CHILDREN?

[RosesOnConcrete]

Holy CRAP. V has kids?

This is getting goooooooood.

[jidasfire]

Yes. Vaarsuvius clearly had this coming, after she:

1) Saved the party from a Chimera

2) Saved the party from a Hydra

3) Saved the party from the young Black that Momma Black is avenging. It should be noted here that V saved Haley directly from the young Black, as she had been ingested.

5) Saved Belkar from Miko

4) Saved several hundred lives at the Battle of Azure City, expending almost all of her spells and putting her own life in dire risk against the Titanium Elementals and the Death Knight. All of those deserters ONLY lived to desert because V held shut the breach.

5) Saved the refugee ship from Zombie/Goblin attack by tutoring Elan in the appropriate means of creating a believable illusion.

6) Saved the leaders of the refugee fleet from a four-hundred-foot demon.

7) Executed a traitorous lord, thus preventing him from weaseling out of repercussions, and as such indirectly saving the party, as well as the refugee fleet.

Yes, of course.

It is all clear to me.

V is evil and must be punished.




So the part where V says "I deny nothing", thus taking full responsibility for her actions escaped you?


Where is it written that a hero, a true form good guy, has to be humble and pleasant to be around and all that, in order to remain a hero and a true form good guy?

What this guy said.

[Anondurl]

First off V doesn't have to be female. And second I didn't know V had kids I knew he was married but perhaps the dragon is wrong in assuming that V has kids.

[stsasser]

Which party leader was wearing Daddy-dragon's hide?

[Kish]

Her horde was stolen! She's not rich anymore!

It occurs to me that Haley is lucky the dragon only wants terrible revenge on Vaarsuvius, or she could find herself being presented with two bills for money she stole and no longer has.

[Raenir Salazar]

I should point out that True Resurrection requires 25,000gc, not 5000gc. Big difference when all that has to be in diamonds and you have no horde. Even finding that many diamonds could take years and make a lot of enemies.
And you don't just find level 17+ evil clerics just knocking about the countryside wavings signs. They keep themselves quiet, because if they don't then DMs might notice them and leave clues for an adventuring party to find.

I don't even think I encounted 17,000 gp worth of diamonds throughout ALL of Neverwinter Nights 2 AND its Expansions.

[amuletts]

Yay, personal vendetta FTW! Also: more V. More, MORE!!
I think this will be the deciding point about Vs alignment. How it plays out will be crucial. I reckon he will reunite with OOTS though, having the talk with the dragon will make h** realise their strengths.

[Raenir Salazar]

Oh, of course. V is kind of like Miko in that way - you know, Miko, who is probably in hell right now, saying, "I categorically refuse to believe that this is not the Lawful Good HEaven. Thus, the gods are just playing with me, their greatest servant, who singlehandedly killed the evil Xykon, Roy, and that horrible ghost who pretended to be Soon."

I can almost with complete certainty state that Miko is NOT in the Hells, at worst she would be in the City of the False on the Fugue Plane (if Fearun), in this universe assuming base D&D I would argue she is with whatever planes the 12 Gods reside albeit in disgrace but at least with forgiveness.

[Chaman]

Showing once again that you should never trust a kobold.

I don't know how to say this...
mmmm...

WHY?

[Trobby]

Now we know the motives of the black dragon and this answers a few questions. The main question that is raised is whether V is the mother or the father of the mentioned children? I anticipate an appearance by V's mate soon.

My money says that V's mate will be even more androgynous.

[DeepShadow]

Re: Moral ambiguity, I think the error here is in thinking people are wholly good or bad. The idea of alignment plays into this thinking. I agree that V crossed a line with the disintigration, and is high in hubris, but neither of these remove the fact that V has acted heroically on many, many occasions.

Nor does V's heroism excuse any of hir flaws. V is what V is, folks, and it's all a single package. Asking whether V is good with evil actions or evil with good actions is like asking whether a zebra is black with white stripes or white with black stripes. The labels aren't meant to contain a whole person.

Re: sympathy for the dragon, the same thing applies. It's an awful thing that happened, a mother's worst nightmare, and the pain never heals. OTOH, none of that justifies killing people who weren't involved. Again with the zebra thing.

Re: the previous black dragon fight, I think the dragon was justified in defending its home against intruders, but throwing around legal concepts like B&E, felony, and murder are a stretch. Law is not morality, and D&D is lacking in both.

Re: the strip--pure genius, right to the last panel! I was ready for everything but that.

[Raenir Salazar]

I'll say this: that dragon knows how to hurt people. Seriously, kill someone and they're dead, the suffering has ended. Let them sit impotent as you kill the people they care about? Pure torture.

As for the imp, once the dragon leaves V will be stuck on this island with no high level spells. The imp negotiates with V again.

"If not for the Dimensional Anchor I could Teleport. Anywhere. Even bring someone with me. In fact, I could teleport anywhere in the world. Yup. Including any place where a certain androgynous elf's children might be. You wouldn't happen to know of someone who could get rid of a Dimensional Anchor, would you?"

You know, this makes an uncanny argument you could make, a loop hole if you will, V could argue that she had the Imp "trapped" and would release him in exchange for aid. The Imp would probably accept in the hopes as a first step towards the end result of the Pact Insidious but would give V the oppurtunity to avoid getting damned.

I love Bargains :)