What makes Wildshape so powerful?

[Zergrusheddie]

I've read through Wildshape and it seems that it is decent. However, you are unable to use gear so your AC is almost certainly going to be low. Most of the threads I have read cite Wildshape with the chief reason why Druids are too powerful. I've read through the Druid Handbook, and I still can't see why Wildshape is so powerful; maybe it's just because I've seen Druids played that suck really, really, bad. Like so bad, the S&B Fighter does far better than him.

To the people who do not suck, how is Wildshape, and thus Druids, so damn powerful?

Best of luck and sorry for the moronic question.
-Eddie

[CyberRebirth]

There are several feats and a couple items that increase the effectiveness of a wildshaped druid. There is an item, I am unsure of the name, it allows your armor to affect your wildshaped form.

[Reinboom]

I've read through Wildshape and it seems that it is decent. However, you are unable to use gear so your AC is almost certainly going to be low. Most of the threads I have read cite Wildshape with the chief reason why Druids are too powerful. I've read through the Druid Handbook, and I still can't see why Wildshape is so powerful; maybe it's just because I've seen Druids played that suck really, really, bad. Like so bad, the S&B Fighter does far better than him.

To the people who do not suck, how is Wildshape, and thus Druids, so damn powerful?

Best of luck and sorry for the moronic question.
-Eddie

Wildshape isn't that bad, really. It's a nice bonus with a lot of flexibility. You have utility with flying, swimming, and similar animals, as well as power with some of the more effective larger animals (bear, for example).
The first 'issues' with it crop up at about level 7 when most of a 24 hour day, and certainly an entire adventuring day (though this can be done at level 6) can be done entirely in animal form. However, not that bad once more. Wildshape would make for a rather powerful decent class, when played right - and with splat books, it can outshine the fighter with enough research. Yes, there is even armor that wildshapes with you and stays on if you look hard enough. Alternatively, you can become something remotely humanoid shaped (ape and bear would work for me) and just put on your armor/have someone help put on your armor after you wildshaped.

However, that's just keeping in mind wildshape. The real issue rests in the fact that wildshape can nearly or equal a full class WHILE being on a class that is not /just/ wildshape. Mind, the druid still has a very formidable animal companion (which, can either be a boon or overpowering depending on the allowance of the GM) to back them up while in wildshape. This duo for one class combination makes the druid a very powerful tank and melee powerhouse. Easily a decently high tier class.

Or would be, if they also did not have spellcasting, and thanks to natural spell (notably, a very obvious and core druid feat), mid combat spellcasting without much effort. They can summon even more things to beat monsters up, control battlefields with vines, support healing, and more.

[mostlyharmful]

It's not that over powered on its own. Add in Natural Spell and it makes it a lot more effective, you're now able to dump two stats, have a huge range of possible extra beenies like pounce or fligth and don't loss much since you're a great buffer (with Wildling clasps you don't lose much of anything).

It's the additive nature of the druids features that make it over the top, Wildshape on it's own would be fine, combine it with an Animal companion, full casting, spont summons of the best summon line, some miscillaneous other features, a good skill list, lots of skill points, a decent hit dice, a decent BAB and all of them working together at the same time.... It's not one thing in particular it's the syncronism of several good to very strong class features.

Edit: Arrgh, Knife in kidney..... damn ninjas!

[Zergrusheddie]

Reading the DHB, I see that a Fleshraker is the form to be in until about level 16 when you can get Dire Tiger if you want to be a melee monster. Looking at it, I just don't see how it's all that powerful; several attacks at 1d4 doesn't sounds like it's going to beat Mr. THW-PA Fighter. I know I'm missing something.

[Behold_the_Void]

You also take on the physical statistics of the wild-shaped form, which tends to mean a really high strength and constitution score in wild shape.

[mostlyharmful]

Reading the DHB, I see that a Fleshraker is the form to be in until about level 16 when you can get Dire Tiger if you want to be a melee monster. Looking at it, I just don't see how it's all that powerful; several attacks at 1d4 doesn't sounds like it's going to beat Mr. THW-PA Fighter. I know I'm missing something.

Venomfire the spell makes its poison serious stuff, magic fang on all your attacks and all your ACs attacks brings you up to snuff, a full attack charge with free trips on most of them, high movement rates and the ability to use magic items that your friends put on you after you wildshape.... You're not giving up anything or even spending any feats or gold at this point, and you're pretty much level with the THW-PA guy (when he actually gets into combat that is...). Add in Airwalk and your druid extra stuff and you're a sneaky manuvourable SOB, charge a guy out of the undergrowth you've covered the battlefield in doing ludicrous damage and tripping and crippling and accompanied by anouther fleshraker who's also buffed up the wazooo.

The dice from your attacks isn't where the damage is, it's from your buffs and that's something that you can push into the stratosphere. Plus, in Fleshraker its easy enough to ensure that you're the only one attacking.

[Fishy]

As I understand it, Fleshraker isn't so much about damage.

It's about charging, and getting a full attack at the end of the charge, and getting a half-dozen hits from your full attack, and using every one of them to Improved Trip, and get another half-dozen hits in.

But the basic problem with Wildshape, and with Druids and with Wizards is the following:

Imagine a game, let's call it D, where there are exactly three spells and three monsters. A Wildshaping Druid with Natural Spell can cast each of the three spells while in each of his three forms, which works out to 9 'things'. D's writers, editors and playtesters have to go through 9 things, see if they aren't outrageously broken, and then they're done.

Now, imagine a game called D&, which has fifty spells and fifty monsters. Our druid now has two thousand and five hundred 'things' he can choose to do. Most of them will be okay, some of them will be lame, but all it takes is one combination that's outrageously good, and the Druid is set for life. Without ever being locked into a decision, even.

[Zergrusheddie]

You also take on the physical statistics of the wild-shaped form, which tends to mean a really high strength and constitution score in wild shape.

I thought your HP was not effected by the new Constitution score?

And Mostlyharmful, can you actually use items while in a form that isn't 'used' to wearing gear? Like the Fleshraker wears an amulet or something?

[mostlyharmful]

I thought your HP was not effected by the new Constitution score?

Not since it got Errated, but your Dex is. Given you don't need two stats and your Int and Cha stats aren't esspecially vital to your party role you can pretty much dump all except Wis and Con

[Talic]

Ok, there are builds out there, not even fully optimized, that can see a shifted druid hitting 40-60 AC by level 8-11.

Those same builds allow the druid to cast while shifted.

So now we have a nigh-unassailable form that can cast with impunity.
Good.
That has good attack bonuses and damage.
Better.
And high modifiers to special abilities.
Even more better.

In fact, through Master of Many Forms, druids can even pick up Extraordinary special qualities, such as Regeneration, tremorsense, and the like.

[Zergrusheddie]

Ok, there are builds out there, not even fully optimized, that can see a shifted druid hitting 40-60 AC by level 8-11.

I am speechless...

[Eldariel]

The principal issue with Wildshape is that it replaces your physical ability scores. That means that regardless of your Str and Dex, you're going to be a good frontliner and going to have those stats matching or exceeding the party Fighter; also, it means that you have two extra dumpstats meaning you only need Con and Wis. Thanks to that, the Druid can afford an 18 in Wisdom on 25pb and still have 18+ Str and Dex while fighting.

Oh, and Wildshape also grants you a natural armor. Which means you can easily buff your AC far beyond what's even possible for standard characters.

[Zergrusheddie]

Oh, and Wildshape also grants you a natural armor. Which means you can easily buff your AC far beyond what's even possible for standard characters.

But is it really that significant? A Dire Bear gives 7 Natural, but a Fighter could just grab a Breastplate for similar protection. Or does it get silly once you add in buffs?

[Eldariel]

But is it really that significant? A Dire Bear gives 7 Natural, but a Fighter could just grab a Breastplate for similar protection. Or does it get silly once you add in buffs?

It's a bonus type not available to the Fighter. The Druid can have a Wild armor or Mage Armor spell, or more probably Monk's Belt granting him his considerable Wis to AC, in addition to that natural armor (and uncapped Dex). Then both have +5 NA (this is specifically a bonus to the existing NA), +5 Deflection, and the Druid comes out the Natural Armor ahead.

[Zergrusheddie]

Can a Wildshape Druid wear gear? I don't just mean like an Ape using Hide but like a Dire Bear using equipment.

[Eloel]

Can a Wildshape Druid wear gear? I don't just mean like an Ape using Hide but like a Dire Bear using equipment.

Wilding clasp from MIC does exactly that.

[mostlyharmful]

You can also have your team mates put your gear onto you once you've wildshaped, it means you can't sneak about as a small animal and not get noticed but magic items resize/shape themselves to the wearer (that's why you can wear dwarf made magic armour as an elf and use magic rings made for gnomes..). If the form you're changing into has a waist (Ape, Bear, etc... ) and fingers/digits (just about everything nonaquatic), and a neck (just about everything) then you can use the important stuff no problem.

[Zergrusheddie]

So a Fleshraker could have a belt and necklace easily enough and, if you made a good argument, rings as well?

[mostlyharmful]

So a Fleshraker could have a belt and necklace easily enough and, if you made a good argument, rings as well?

No real arguement, it's a bipedal medium sized animal with essentially grasping forelimbs designed very similarly to humanoids. If your DM doesn't let you use rings in fleshraker form they're being a bit overzealous in my opinon and if you get hold of a picture of the dinosaur you're turning into

and point out what the forelimbs look like it should be even easier, the ring wouldn't need to change shape or size more than it would to resize to any normal humanoid, it's probably not even as extreme as a high natural strength half-orc and wouldn't they be pissed off if a DM said "no, i'm sorry but your fingers are too fat to use that +2 ring of protection, it's gnome made."

[Zergrusheddie]

I wonder if it would be difficult to mingle with actual Fleshrakers while wearing rings...

"Dude, what happened?! you go into the city for one week and you come back dressed in jewelry?..."
"... I think it's pretty?"

[Talic]

Ok, for an example.

Let's take a Dwarf Druid, total level 10, 22 point buy.

Str 8
Dex 8
Con 18
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 6

Let's say this Druid has 2 levels of the Deepwarden Prestige Class, and gains Con to AC. (the ethos of deepwarden actually meshes very well with druid)

He also has Wilding Mountain Plate (dragonhide or somesuch)+1.

Shift into a large animal form, armor melds (still provides bonus)
Armor - +11
Con to AC - +8
Natural Armor - +7
Size - -1
That's AC 35, and I'm not even trying.

Large Wooden Shield +1, Animated - +3
Amulet of Natural Health +6 - +3
Ring of protection +2 - +2
Now it's AC 43.

5 ranks of tumble and fighting defensively?
AC 46.

And that's on a 22 point buy.
On a 28 point buy, I'd bump the strength up to a 14, to qualify for power attack. On a 32 point buy, I'd put strength at 12, and raise the wisdom to 18 (1st level boost in Strength to qualify for power attack)

[Zergrusheddie]

Ahh, I see. Actually Talic, I think the AC would be higher; Wildshape gives you the con modifier, but it doesn't apply to HP.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Raw power isn't so much the "problem" with Wild Shape as the versatility it provides. Walk around all day in a form that is equal in melee to the party Fighter. That Fighter may have his own shtick, whether it's dealing damage with Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper, or controlling the battlefield with Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip, or providing an unkillable barrier with Shield Ward and Combat Form feats and an unspeakably high AC, each of which requires such a heavy investment on the character's part that he most often cannot do more than one of them. A Druid just picks the right form and casts the right buff(s) and can do whichever of those is needed right then. And he never even has to switch out to cast those buffs thanks to Natural Spell. Tier 1 spellcasting plus an animal companion who's the party fighter's equal in melee plus an all-day combat form plus utility forms.

By utility forms I mean fly around out of melee or to hard-to-reach places just as easily as any other character, sneak around just as well as any of the classes that are supposed to be the best at it, swim (and breathe) like a fish, crawl through a narrow/low opening while the Wizard and Cleric rest until the next day so they can prepare Gaseous Form or Meld Into Stone. Out in the woods and need to poop something fierce? Turn into a bear! Have a friend who needs to get some insurance? Wild Shape: Gecko, even a Cave Man Druid could do that! With Wild Shape you can turn into a solution to dozens of problems in a standard action without prior preparation.

On top of all that, Druids have Tier 1 spellcasting that can solve any problem an animal form can't, buff themselves and their animal companion into the stratosphere, and reduce their opponents to a pile of ash. Plus they can do all that inconspicuously as a housecat or a stray dog or a bird overhead or a fern. Who cares what your AC is if you can pounce on the foe, trip them, pin them, and deal enough Dex damage that they risk being outright disabled all in a single charge. That opponent is going to have to escape the pin, escape the grapple, and stand up from prone before they'll even pose a real threat.

[Talic]

Biff has the idea. On top of that, combo'd with PRC's, your abilities become nasty.

While a basic druid can't assume the form of plants, if you don't mind gimping some casting, a Master of Many Forms can. Plus, with Deepwarden (Druid 5/Deepwarden 2/MoMF7), by level 14, your AC can be astronomical. (Shift into a Shambling strider, and use electricity on yourself (least energy gem (electricity) works, as does other methods) repeatedly for insane con boosts, which translate to AC and HP (the bonus would add to HP, as it's not a bonus from wildshaping).

Nature's warrior grants access to a variety of special attacks/buffs/etc.

War Shaper grants extra reach, extra Strength / Con, damage increases/extra attack forms, and the ability to change forms on 1 wildshape.

The list goes on, but even a straight druid is strong (stronger, actually), due to the Tier 1 casting.

[Eldariel]

Biff has the idea. On top of that, combo'd with PRC's, your abilities become nasty.

While a basic druid can't assume the form of plants, if you don't mind gimping some casting, a Master of Many Forms can.

...huh? Druid 12: Wildshape (plant) He'll miss out on the Extraordinary Special Qualities though, which is a pity. And which is what MoMF is awesome for (seriously, Plant Qualities kick ass). And of course, MoMF gets faster wildshape, more uses per day and a ton of other forms (which Druid would either have to burn feats for, or which would be totally unavailable).

[mostlyharmful]

A creature with the plant type, not an actual plant.

ie, you can turn into a Shambler or Treant with enough levels but you can't turn into a fern.

[Bosh]

It lets a druid out-fight a fighter and out-sneak a rogue while remaining a full caster at all times. This is a problem.

[PinkysBrain]

Sure if you wildshape and lose all your items it's not very powerful ...

But in core if you play it smart you wildshape and have your party members put your items on you and stay wildshaped (you don't even need a wild armor, you can use barding). With the MIC you can use wilding clasps to get item bonuses even if you do chose to wildshape in combat.

The big problem really is that NA stacks with normal armor ... no normal character has an AC which can remotely compare to the AC of a wildshaped/polymorphed character stacking the two.

[Talic]

No, it's possible to boost AC in other ways, and Nat Armor/Armor bonuses are generally not the biggest boost to AC in high armor builds.

Let's look at Fighter Bob the halfling.

Fighter Bob is level 20, and is much man.

He wields a staff, with the Staff defense feat from Comp Warrior.

His gear is: Mithril Full Plate +5, Animated Large Steel Shield +3, Staff +4/+3 Defending, Ring of Protection +3, Amulet of Natural Armor +4.

Bob is sitting at (standard) AC 36 (10 + 1 size + 13 Armor + 5 Shield + 3 Deflection + 4 Natural Armor).

Now, Bob sees a rather large giant with frenzied berzerker levels, and interposes himself between him and the wizard, getting close enough to attack and doing so. He's not so concerned with hitting, but wants to keep close, so as to use his Stand Still feat.

He Fights Defensively (+3 AC, due to 5 ranks of tumble), and takes -20 to hit (Improved Combat Expertise) for a +22 AC (staff defense feat). Shifting his staff's Defender bonus to AC (+3) Nets him an AC of 64, much more difficult to hit. Even so, the giant will likely hit, as fighters don't AC optimize as well as others.