[3.5] Where are the critical flaws in this character?

[Fixer]

I would like a critique on the character I am presently playing in a PbP game here on these forums. The link is Marali Grobrin in my signature (for some reason I cannot use the linking button).

She is not a combat-heavy character. She is, in fact, a party character with a simple role early in the game, moving to more of a combat focus later in the game. I was going for the Concealment / Hide in Plain Sight from Umbral Disciple, Island of Blades from Swordsage, and various elemental touch and ranged touch attacks from Incarnum soulmelds. Combining her sneak attack, staggering strike, and touch attacks seems a nice combination but I was wondering if anyone had a better idea for past 2nd level. Her maneuvers are primarily to help against attacks that might cripple her (like the anti-charge maneuver) but I didn't see many good choices for the low-level maneuvers she would gain at low levels. Hoping someone has a better arrangement for the low-level maneuvers.

The feats are mostly filler past 9th level, but I don't want her dependent on gear. It is highly unlikely she will get the gear she wants in this campaign so don't suggest 'get a ring of X' because that probably won't happen. So far, getting from 1st to 2nd level, no one has gotten a new piece of equipment and my character has found a ring of limited usefulness and a book she has no clue what it is for.

Again, I am looking for better options to do something similiar to what I did here. Not looking for a radical new design, just some tweaking.

Oh, and if you see a mistake, please let me know where.

[Muad'dib]

I would like a critique on the character I am presently playing in ....
....u see a mistake, please let me know where.

I'm not familiar with the Umbral Disciple, but RAW, adaptive style must be taken on swordsage, crusader, or warblade 1st level. So unless that's a houserule your group uses you may need to change that.

[Fixer]

I'm not familiar with the Umbral Disciple, but RAW, adaptive style must be taken on swordsage, crusader, or warblade 1st level. So unless that's a houserule your group uses you may need to change that.

Ok, how are you reading it like that? It says it as a requirement, not as a limitation. If it was required to be taken AT first level , it would have a Special comment (like all other feats that you must take at 1st level) stating such.

I read it as, "You must have at least one level in these classes in order to take this feat, because otherwise you don't have readied maneuvers you don't already know, which is what would be the case if you gained maneuvers through feats."

[Zenos]

Ok, how are you reading it like that? It says it as a requirement, not as a limitation. If it was required to be taken AT first level , it would have a Special comment (like all other feats that you must take at 1st level) stating such.

I read it as, "You must have at least one level in these classes in order to take this feat, because otherwise you don't have readied maneuvers you don't already know, which is what would be the case if you gained maneuvers through feats."

That's how I interpret it too, like the greater weapon X feats.

[Muad'dib]

Ok, how are you reading it like that? It says it as a requirement, not as a limitation. If it was required to be taken AT first level , it would have a Special comment (like all other feats that you must take at 1st level) stating such.

I read it as, "You must have at least one level in these classes in order to take this feat, because otherwise you don't have readied maneuvers you don't already know, which is what would be the case if you gained maneuvers through feats."

My mistake. My English is starting to suffer the longer I stay in a foreign country, don't know how I would get that screwed up :P. Carry on then good folk nothing to see here.

[Fixer]

I cannot think I have made something perfect. Is it just that no one cares?

[Starbuck_II]

I cannot think I have made something perfect. Is it just that no one cares?

Well, your first post limits our critical ability.

You say tell me my flaws; then say, but not, "gear".


So we should just mention flaws and hope someday you can cover them (ie no solutions)?
But here goes:
You lack a miss chance, energy resistance, etc. (though at level 2; that is fine)
AC is decent (10 +1.5 level), but not good (15 +1.5 level)
I know you said no gear, but you should buy a Chainshirt (+1 more AC) since you dex bonus is not more than +5 (and even then Mithral Chain shirt is worth it).


You have good hps though.

[Fixer]

So we should just mention flaws and hope someday you can cover them (ie no solutions)?
But here goes:
You lack a miss chance, energy resistance, etc. (though at level 2; that is fine)
AC is decent (10 +1.5 level), but not good (15 +1.5 level)
I know you said no gear, but you should buy a Chainshirt (+1 more AC) since you dex bonus is not more than +5 (and even then Mithral Chain shirt is worth it).

Yes, I am looking for flaws. Kind of why I stated that in the topic title. ;)

Miss chance will be covered around level 8, when her Embrace of Shadows kicks in. Only a 20% miss chance (and she'll have Essentia to spare for it), but considering it is free and upgrades with level, I thought it good enough.

Energy Resistance, I agree, I could not find a decent universal energy resistance that would fit. My hope was that evasion and a high reflex save make everything short of ranged touch attacks largely incompetent. The touch attacks would still have the Embrace of Shadows to deal with after 8th level.

Her only stat to be raised by level will be Con, so her HP will be unusually high for a rogue of her level. This should give her some survivability and make sure she doesn't cap any of her Essentia pools, as well as boosting her Fort save.

When she gets enough money and is allowed to buy gear, I had planned on her picking up a Darkwood large wooden shield (no penalities because of Darkwood, even if she isn't proficient) and a Mithril Chain Shirt (again, because of lack of penalties). The Wis bonus to AC from Swordsage would be less than her AC bonus from the shield, as she isn't terribly wise. If her wisdom increases from items she'd probably lose the shield. Thus far, however, she has been pretty broke and unable to buy squat. The GM hasn't been liberal with treasure (my character has found two items and they seem more quest items than treasure, and no one else has found anything they have reported).

[Draz74]

Swordsage doesn't lose WIS to AC for wearing light armor anyway. But I think it does for using a Shield. Is your Shield going to be worth that?

[Fixer]

Swordsage doesn't lose WIS to AC for wearing light armor anyway. But I think it does for using a Shield. Is your Shield going to be worth that?

Wis Bonus: +1
Large Shield Bonus: +2

So, yes, it will be worth it unless her Wisdom is somehow artificially increased by items or inherent bonuses. If it somehow randomly increases during combat, she can always drop her shield to improve her AC.

Only reason she took levels as a swordsage is for the maneuvers, not for the Wis benefits. Island of Blades and Counter Charge are definitely worth it for a party rogue. Burning Blade gives her some fire damage (not much, but a little) to round out some more elemental damage (acid, fire, eventually electricity). The rest of her maneuvers are ones she'd probably trade out if she went epic.

Her stances of Island of Blades and Hunter's Sense help out both in and out of combat. Combining her Spot/Listen, Hunter's Sense, and Sight of the Eyeless (at level 12) she should be impossible to surprise, eventually.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A bit of critique:

Your second level of Swordsage comes WAY too early, and for no good purpose.

A Boost is a Swift action, you can only do one per turn. Likewise with a Counter. You've got way too many boosts and counters, and not enough maneuvers.

Your second level of swordsage nets you crap for your maneuver and stance. Delay to 9th level, and you pick up Pouncing Strike (pounce) and Assassin's Stance (for when you do get a golden flank position and don't need Island of Blades).

Yes, I know, you want that AC earlier, but it really isn't worth it.

Dump Burning Blade, extra fire damage can be obtained too many other ways. Grab Sapphire Nightmare Blade Strike. Read it. Target opponent is flat-footed, as in more sneak attack. Stone Bones can greatly improve your survivability if you do end up on the bad side of an attack.

Too bad you can't shake enough feats loose for TWF, it generally does very well with precision-based damage. With Bloodclaw Master, it turns you into a melee damage monster on par with most charger builds. Pick up a pair of Wand Sheaths, and a Wand of Golembane and Gravebane and you'll almost never be unable to deal precision-based damage.

[PinkysBrain]

Personally I'd drop a level in rogue and go for 2 levels of totemist.

Winter Mask is a far better melee attack soulmeld for a sneak attacker than lightning gauntlets, because it lets you make iterative attacks. Also after 2 hits your target is exhausted ... which is a nice debuff.

[Fixer]

A bit of critique:

Your second level of Swordsage comes WAY too early, and for no good purpose.

A Boost is a Swift action, you can only do one per turn. Likewise with a Counter. You've got way too many boosts and counters, and not enough maneuvers.

Your second level of swordsage nets you crap for your maneuver and stance. Delay to 9th level, and you pick up Pouncing Strike (pounce) and Assassin's Stance (for when you do get a golden flank position and don't need Island of Blades).

Yes, I know, you want that AC earlier, but it really isn't worth it.

Dump Burning Blade, extra fire damage can be obtained too many other ways. Grab Sapphire Nightmare Blade Strike. Read it. Target opponent is flat-footed, as in more sneak attack. Stone Bones can greatly improve your survivability if you do end up on the bad side of an attack.

Too bad you can't shake enough feats loose for TWF, it generally does very well with precision-based damage. With Bloodclaw Master, it turns you into a melee damage monster on par with most charger builds. Pick up a pair of Wand Sheaths, and a Wand of Golembane and Gravebane and you'll almost never be unable to deal precision-based damage.

Yes, I was unhappy about having to take that level of swordsage so early. It was done to avoid taking multi-classing penalties. I believe, however, that PinkysBrain offers a suitable alternative: Rogue 1/Totemist 2/Rogue +1/Swordsage 1

That way he can get level 2 maneuvers with his first level of swordsage and not delay his entry into Umbral Disciple. This will also open up some feats for her. I will look into it and update it tomorrow when I have time.

Mucho thanks for those who have critiqued. I will update this thread when I have those tweaks in. If you think of anything else, please let me know.

[Aquillion]

Yes, I was unhappy about having to take that level of swordsage so early. It was done to avoid taking multi-classing penalties.

Are you sure your DM is using multi-classing penalties? Many don't, or will forgo them if asked. They make very little sense and often punish characters pointlessly, since PRCs tend to be better and offer more, yet don't have the penalties.

[Fixer]

Are you sure your DM is using multi-classing penalties? Many don't, or will forgo them if asked. They make very little sense and often punish characters pointlessly, since PRCs tend to be better and offer more, yet don't have the penalties.

Yes. He stated, very clearly, that multi-classing is allowed but to bear in mind the multi-classing penalties. No grey area there.

Ok, I have updated Marali to 6th level. I think I have things covered pretty well. I figure her soulmelds for 2nd level will be Wormtail Belt (+3 natural AC with 1 point of essentia), and Kruthik Claws (+6 to Hide/Move Silent with 1 point of essentia), in addition to the one from her feat. When she is stealthing her essentia will be in her Claws, but otherwise her essentia will be in her Belt. If she has enough meat-shields around her to prevent her from being hit, she will move the essentia into her Spittle and double her damage.

Oh, and the reason I prefer the lightning gauntlets, dissolving spittle, and other attack soulmelds over the totemist ones are that totemist attack soulmelds require normal attack rolls, while the gauntlets, spittle, and the like are TOUCH attacks. At later levels touch attacks do not go up nearly as fast as normal ACs, and attacking from stealth means they won't even get their dex bonus to AC vs. the touch attack for an almost guaranteed hit against anything with sneak attack doing elemental damage, so no damage resistance either.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh, and the reason I prefer the lightning gauntlets, dissolving spittle, and other attack soulmelds over the totemist ones are that totemist attack soulmelds require normal attack rolls, while the gauntlets, spittle, and the like are TOUCH attacks. At later levels touch attacks do not go up nearly as fast as normal ACs, and attacking from stealth means they won't even get their dex bonus to AC vs. the touch attack for an almost guaranteed hit against anything with sneak attack doing elemental damage, so no damage resistance either.

Yes, but be aware that many monsters, particularly at higher levels, have a lot of elemental resistance as well, and Lightning is one of the more commonly resisted flavors. Acid Resistance is also very common in evil outsiders.

[Fixer]

Yes, but be aware that many monsters, particularly at higher levels, have a lot of elemental resistance as well, and Lightning is one of the more commonly resisted flavors. Acid Resistance is also very common in evil outsiders.

Actually, after going through the MM it does seem a LOT of things are immune to electricity. Hmmmm... is there a cold-based soulmeld that deals real damage on a touch attack and isn't on the totemist list? (Goes through his book.) Nope, I don't see any. I will consider dropping it. Does anyone see something I haven't noticed?

That leaves me with a lot of free feats. Cool.

[Heliomance]

There are a lot of things that resist most energy types, actually. In order from most often resisted to least, I believe it goes fire->cold->electricity->acid->sonic(->force).

[Fixer]

Ok, that pretty much leaves her without a backup innate ranged touch attack. I will need to focus on getting her items to grant touch attacks, then.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ok, that pretty much leaves her without a backup innate ranged touch attack. I will need to focus on getting her items to grant touch attacks, then.

Sapphire Nightmare Blade is a maneuver you can get which lets you attack as though they were flat-footed. Ruby Nightmare Blade grants touch attacks.

There is a prestige class "Master Thrower" that will eventually, over five levels, allow you to throw weapons as touch attacks.

My suggestion to you: One level dip in Warlock. You get Eldrich Blast at will, and you net one handy Invocation known. For your build, you may want the Darkness at will invocation so you can always Hide In Plain Sight, or you may want Devil's Sight which is Darkvision + See in Magical Darkness, or you may want See the Unseen, which is Darkvision + See Invis. Beguiling Influence can help you be a better 'party face'. Spiderclimb can be good for mobility.

Best of all, the Blast that Warlocks get is untyped, so there is no elemental resistance to it.

One problem with your build as written: You somehow lost Shadow Blade, which looses your Dex to damage.

With Dex to damage, you can pretty much make Str a dump stat, and focus on your Dex as both attack and defense. A suggestion would be to pick up Swordsage at level 2, so you would have Rogue1/Swordsage1, then at 3rd, for your bonus feat, pick up Shadow Blade.

Your second level of Swordsage also comes WAY too late, unless there's some high-end maneuver you desperately want. It generally needs to show up around 9-10. This will net you the Pouncing Strike that you need (probably more than you will need the shadow step), and Assassin's Stance, for when you have perfect flanking with an ally.

[Darrin]

Energy Resistance, I agree, I could not find a decent universal energy resistance that would fit. My hope was that evasion and a high reflex save make everything short of ranged touch attacks largely incompetent. The touch attacks would still have the Embrace of Shadows to deal with after 8th level.

There's a soulmeld in Dragon Magic, p. 83, that offers energy resistance. Dragon Mantle, resistance = 3 x essentia against acid, cold, fire, and electricity. DR too, if you bind it to your shoulders chakra. You'll need the draconic subtype to take it. Fortunately, Fireblood Dwarf should work, and that starts with fire resistance 5, which stacks with Dragon Mantle.

You'll also want to look at dipping a level of Ironsoul Forgemaster for Shield Bond. Allows you invest essentia into your shield for resistance 5 x essentia against acid, cold, fire, electricity *and* sonic damage.

Actually, after going through the MM it does seem a LOT of things are immune to electricity. Hmmmm... is there a cold-based soulmeld that deals real damage on a touch attack and isn't on the totemist list? (Goes through his book.) Nope, I don't see any.

Frost Helm (crown) won't work?

Ok, that pretty much leaves her without a backup innate ranged touch attack. I will need to focus on getting her items to grant touch attacks, then.

Pyrokineticist is a fairly popular go-to for ranged touch attacks, and is pretty easy to qualify for.

One level dip into Warlock would give you a ranged touch attack. Darkness or Devil's Sight at will is nothing to sneeze at, either. And it requires taking three feats, but Pierce Magical Concealment lets you ignore any concealment your target may have.

Other than that... Rogue can spend ranks on UMD and Mage's Spectacles or Elder Spirit (Dragon Magic) gives a nice insight bonus to UMD. You could try wands of flameblade. Also take a look at scimitar of sand (Sandstorm), very similar to flameblade except the damage is untyped.

If you can't grab Shadow Garrote (ranged touch attack, 5d6 damage before sneak attack kicks in) from another Swordsage dip, you can get it with a novice Shadow Hands wondrous item (3000 GP) as soon as your IL is high enough.

Hmm... some ranged touch attack items in the MIC:

Gloves of Lightning, 3/day, 30' range, 3d8+5 electrical damage.
Mask of Blood, 2/day, 30' range, 4d6 acid damage.
Bag of Flames, 3 charges, 1 charge = produce flame for 1 minute. Range 120', 1d6+5 fire damage.
Gloves of the Uldra Savant. Ray of frost at will. Ok, 1d3 cold damage is pitiful, but not when you add sneak attack damage on top of it.

Fairly cheap, too... all those are 3500 GP or less.

Oh, and don't forget the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (Tome of Magic p. 156). This adds the dark template to your character. A continuous item is 22000 GP, but the standard action version lasts up to 10 minutes and is a bargain at only 5400 GP. Dark template gives you: +10' speed, darkvision 60', superior low-light vision, HiPS, resistance to cold 10, +8 hide and +6 move silently.

[Fixer]

There is a prestige class "Master Thrower" that will eventually, over five levels, allow you to throw weapons as touch attacks.

My suggestion to you: One level dip in Warlock. You get Eldrich Blast at will, and you net one handy Invocation known. For your build, you may want the Darkness at will invocation so you can always Hide In Plain Sight, or you may want Devil's Sight which is Darkvision + See in Magical Darkness, or you may want See the Unseen, which is Darkvision + See Invis. Beguiling Influence can help you be a better 'party face'. Spiderclimb can be good for mobility.

Best of all, the Blast that Warlocks get is untyped, so there is no elemental resistance to it.

One problem with your build as written: You somehow lost Shadow Blade, which looses your Dex to damage.

With Dex to damage, you can pretty much make Str a dump stat, and focus on your Dex as both attack and defense. A suggestion would be to pick up Swordsage at level 2, so you would have Rogue1/Swordsage1, then at 3rd, for your bonus feat, pick up Shadow Blade.

Your second level of Swordsage also comes WAY too late, unless there's some high-end maneuver you desperately want. It generally needs to show up around 9-10. This will net you the Pouncing Strike that you need (probably more than you will need the shadow step), and Assassin's Stance, for when you have perfect flanking with an ally.

Ok, this girl already has four classes. I don't want any more dips as multi-classing penalty DOES apply. Her BAB is already dropping from the dips she already has. Thankfully, her Ref save is going to go through the roof, as ALL her classes have it as a favored save. She doesn't use thrown weapons so Master Thrower doesn't really work for her.

She never had Shadow Blade. What is Shadow Blade? (Goes and looks it up...) Oh, no, she doesn't use any of those weapons. Her Dex isn't her focus anyway. Her Con is her focus. Anything she picks up that provides a dex bonus will be accidental, not intentional. Pretty much everything except Con and Int are 'dump stats' on her. She isn't optimized towards one trick, she is geared for survival in many different kinds of encounters, not doing one thing really well and hoping it comes up.

Pouncing Strike is where? Do realize this character has no Jump skill, and little Strength, so jumping anywhere is pretty much out of the question.

There's a soulmeld in Dragon Magic, p. 83, that offers energy resistance. Dragon Mantle, resistance = 3 x essentia against acid, cold, fire, and electricity. DR too, if you bind it to your shoulders chakra. You'll need the draconic subtype to take it. Fortunately, Fireblood Dwarf should work, and that starts with fire resistance 5, which stacks with Dragon Mantle.

Frost Helm (crown) won't work?

I cannot change her race, she's already in-play. I have to work with what she has so, unfortunately, this won't work. Wish I had known about it, though. She has no Chakra binds, so the only thing Frost Helm would do for her is subdual damage. If necessary she can use her Totemist levels to shape that so it isn't worth a feat. See above for Warlock.

Other than that... Rogue can spend ranks on UMD and Mage's Spectacles or Elder Spirit (Dragon Magic) gives a nice insight bonus to UMD. You could try wands of flameblade. Also take a look at scimitar of sand (Sandstorm), very similar to flameblade except the damage is untyped.

If you can't grab Shadow Garrote (ranged touch attack, 5d6 damage before sneak attack kicks in) from another Swordsage dip, you can get it with a novice Shadow Hands wondrous item (3000 GP) as soon as your IL is high enough.

Shadow Garrote will become available after her Umbral Disciple levels. Unfortunately only her rogue levels give UMD as a class skill, so she will be needing UMD items to really make use of wands. I cannot rely on the GM making these things available but I suppose I can hope. I will check out Sandstorm.

Gloves of the Uldra Savant. Ray of frost at will. Ok, 1d3 cold damage is pitiful, but not when you add sneak attack damage on top of it.

I remember seeing these. This will definitely be on her desired acquisition list, I cannot rely that the GM will let her find one but here's to hoping.

Oh, and don't forget the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (Tome of Magic p. 156). This adds the dark template to your character. A continuous item is 22000 GP, but the standard action version lasts up to 10 minutes and is a bargain at only 5400 GP. Dark template gives you: +10' speed, darkvision 60', superior low-light vision, HiPS, resistance to cold 10, +8 hide and +6 move silently.

With Embrace of Shadows she has HiPS with spending only 2 essentia. At level 2 her Hide and MS are already at +12, which isn't bad, and they'll be near +20 around level 9 when she will gain HiPS. Besides, this is something I doubt she'd be able to keep if they found it. There is another rogue and she'd need it more than Marali.

[Darrin]

I cannot change her race, she's already in-play. I have to work with what she has so, unfortunately, this won't work. Wish I had known about it, though. She has no Chakra binds, so the only thing Frost Helm would do for her is subdual damage. If necessary she can use her Totemist levels to shape that so it isn't worth a feat. See above for Warlock.

Ah, well, the Dragonborn of Bahumat ritual only costs 100 GP. You'll lose most of your dwarf racial abilities, but you can pick up flight or a breath weapon.

Ironsoul Forgemaster might still be worth it later on, maybe better than spending a feat on Shape Soulmeld.

What feats are you taking now? I've lost track. Open Least Chakra at 6th gets you a ranged touch attack with the Frost Helm.

[Drider]

It is highly unlikely she will get the gear she wants in this campaign so don't suggest 'get a ring of X' because that probably won't happen. So far, getting from 1st to 2nd level, no one has gotten a new piece of equipment and my character has found a ring of limited usefulness and a book she has no clue what it is for.

...Vow of Poverty Monk?

[Fixer]

What feats are you taking now? I've lost track. Open Least Chakra at 6th gets you a ranged touch attack with the Frost Helm.

Actually, when she hits second level totemist and can bind a soulmeld to her totem chakra, taking the Yrthak Mask and binding that to her totem gives her a 2d6 sonic ranged touch attack (and +8 to Listen checks) which goes up every 5 levels (as she can put more essentia into it). Alternatively, she can bind Heart of Fire and use its ability as a touch attack (it adds damage to a normal attack, and her normal touch attack deals 0 damage, so it would only deal the additional damage plus any sneak attack damage) and poke someone to death with her finger. The amusement factor alone would be worth it.

Besides, I am REALLY hoping I can find those ray of frost at-will gloves. Or secure them. Steal them. Whatever, she will find them.

[Darrin]

Besides, I am REALLY hoping I can find those ray of frost at-will gloves. Or secure them. Steal them. Whatever, she will find them.

As cheap as they are, the Gloves of the Uldra Savant are probably too expensive for what you want them to do. If you can convince a spellcaster (or somehow squeeze three spellcaster levels into the build somewhere) a wondrous item of unlimited ray of frost should only cost about 900 GP.

You have to promise to take a picture of the DM's face when you solo something nasty with only a ray of frost.

[PinkysBrain]

Standard action attacks need to do more damage ... you just don't have enough sneak attack dice to make standard action attacks worth it otherwise, also even the smallest bit of SR would stop you.

You would be better off throwing Alchemist Fire&Frost.

[Fixer]

Standard action attacks need to do more damage ... you just don't have enough sneak attack dice to make standard action attacks worth it otherwise, also even the smallest bit of SR would stop you.

You would be better off throwing Alchemist Fire&Frost.

I noticed that about SR. I hadn't thought of a way around that. Can you sneak attack with Alchemist Fire? (Checks) I guess so. It requires a ranged touch attack. Grab some Alchemist Frost/Spark and she should have things pretty well covered.

I didn't know about those items. Thanks! Now she just has to get a Holding item so she can carry them without worrying about them breaking. Haversack, hopefully.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Acid Splash is a conjuration effect cantrip that does acid damage (less frequently resisted than cold) and ignores SR.

[Fixer]

Acid Splash is a conjuration effect cantrip that does acid damage (less frequently resisted than cold) and ignores SR.

Looks like I will be trying to buy a lot of custom items. :/