Building an Uber-Cleric-Zilla

[SoD]

OK, the other day, myself and a friend (The Captain) were discussing DnD classes and he made the claim that a fighter is a better melee combatant than a cleric, and I burst into laughter. He seemed mildly annoyed at that, making references to both it's HD and BAB and weapon proficiencies. I told him that to proove my point, I said I could create a level 20 cleric, 32 point buy, full-hp-for-first-hd-average-the-rest-hp, cleric 20, to fight his created-in-similar-way fighter 20, all DnD 3.5 books allowed.

One mild problem; he's a bit of a powergamer, and I'm not! We've even gone to the trouble of getting a friend to judge this, but with my optimising skills, he could probably make a monk, a truenamer, or even a healer who could beat me!

And no, no PrC's, my straight cleric vs. his straight fighter.

Halp!

[Dyllan]

OK, the other day, myself and a friend (The Captain) were discussing DnD classes and he made the claim that a fighter is a better melee combatant than a cleric, and I burst into laughter. He seemed mildly annoyed at that, making references to both it's HD and BAB and weapon proficiencies. I told him that to proove my point, I said I could create a level 20 cleric, 32 point buy, full-hp-for-first-hd-average-the-rest-hp, cleric 20, to fight his created-in-similar-way fighter 20, all DnD 3.5 books allowed.

One mild problem; he's a bit of a powergamer, and I'm not! We've even gone to the trouble of getting a friend to judge this, but with my optimising skills, he could probably make a monk, a truenamer, or even a healer who could beat me!

And no, no PrC's, my straight cleric vs. his straight fighter.

Halp!

Well, we need ground rules for the combat first.

I assume any offensive spells are out, or you wouldn't be having a melee fight. But buffs and healing are okay? Or is healing out too?

Also, does the cleric get any time to buff ahead of time? If so, what duration buffs can be prepared? I would think a realistic rule would be to allow hour/round and longer spells to be prepped ahead of time (that includes anything persisted, of course).

What about equipment? If it's an anything goes situation, watch out for anything that can dispel your buffs.

The cleric build will probably be more about buffs than feats. You're going to want Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell for sure. Quicken would be good as well, so you can keep buffing in combat without slowing down your melee attacks.

Do you know if he's likely to go pure damage, spiked-chain tripper, or what? Some idea of what he will do would go a long way to counter it.

[SoD]

Ground rules for combat; are yet to be decided, and will be decided for a fair fight by our friend (Nick). Offensive spells are allowed, but the challenge is assumed to be melee cleric, so I'm mainly looking at buffs. Since healing is what clerics are about (sorta), I'm assuming it'll be allowed.

Equipment; if it's in a book, and we can afford it, it's allowed. Standard WBL by the way.

A few things he's mentioned; is that if I turn massive, he's possibly taking piton-fighting as a feat (what-ever that does), which apparantly gives friendly bonuses against larger-that-thou foes.

But as I'm no powergamer AT ALL, I do not know what feats/races/spells/items are useful for something designed to kill the sh*t out of something else. Also, as I'm focusing on buffs, I don't think my wisdom needs to be higher than 19, as I'm not focusing on offensive spells, and as I won't need to turn undead (unless I take a bunch of turning feats) I don't need charisma, so strength and constitution are my primary concerns. But, as mentioned, I'm sure the Playground knows better.

And as for what style he's going...I'm afraid I have no idea. But, if it helps, he has no idea what I'm going for.

[Zaq]

Divine Metamagic: Persist (DMM is in Complete Divine, Persist Spell is in Complete Arcane) is, naturally, one of your nastiest (and some would say cheesiest, but hey, you're powergaming) abilities. Your buffs last allllllll day. The only rule is that it has to have a fixed or personal range, but most of the best buffs do anyway. Divine Power, a 4th level spell, is probably the most commonly persisted buff, completely negating any BAB advantage the fighter has over you. If you use Nightsticks (Libris Mortis) to get more turning attempts, that means more persisted spells, so that's an excellent way to spend your money. Divine Metamagic is really good for other things as well... a DMM:Quickened Gate or Shapechange is a lovely way to start off the battle.

Also, is polymorphing allowed? I know Shapechange is on several domain lists, so look at that. Most 9th level spells are, on some level, win buttons, so be sure to use and abuse them.

This is all just general, basic info. I've never actually played a cleric, nor even seen one played in such a way. I just know that these are some of the more common, and yet nastier, tricks that clerics have up their sleeves.

Oh, and Fighters rely really heavily on their magical items at higher levels. Mordenkainen's Disjunction is on the Magic domain list, and will make all of his costly items into junk. It's a dirty trick, of course, but completely legal and doesn't even require any rule-bending.

Scour the domain lists for spells, too. Miracle will let you use them regardless of what domains you pick, as long as they're 8th level or lower.

Between the all-day buffs of DMM:Persist, the rapid spellcasting of DMM:Quicken, and the fact that you get 9th level spells in the first place, he shouldn't stand a chance. The only major issue I can see would be if he had a huge initiative modifier and the Mage Slayer tree, but even then, you still have enough aces in the hole to mess him up good.

[Dyllan]

Ground rules for combat; are yet to be decided, and will be decided for a fair fight by our friend (Nick). Offensive spells are allowed, but the challenge is assumed to be melee cleric, so I'm mainly looking at buffs. Since healing is what clerics are about (sorta), I'm assuming it'll be allowed.

Equipment; if it's in a book, and we can afford it, it's allowed. Standard WBL by the way.

A few things he's mentioned; is that if I turn massive, he's possibly taking piton-fighting as a feat (what-ever that does), which apparantly gives friendly bonuses against larger-that-thou foes.

But as I'm no powergamer AT ALL, I do not know what feats/races/spells/items are useful for something designed to kill the sh*t out of something else. Also, as I'm focusing on buffs, I don't think my wisdom needs to be higher than 19, as I'm not focusing on offensive spells, and as I won't need to turn undead (unless I take a bunch of turning feats) I don't need charisma, so strength and constitution are my primary concerns. But, as mentioned, I'm sure the Playground knows better.

And as for what style he's going...I'm afraid I have no idea. But, if it helps, he has no idea what I'm going for.

Well, let us know the ground rules as soon as possible. Specifically, you need to know what kind of spells you can cast before battle... I assume based on duration (push for minute/level or longer, but even 10 minute/level or longer would help).

I need to get to bed now. But I"ll be glad to give some advice tomorrow morning, assuming the rest of the Playground hasn't covered everything I can think of.

Also, do you have to choose a diety and base domains on that, or can you just pick any two domains? If you can pick any two, you want the Time domain, so you can get access to Haste.

[d13]

Just try not to die because of massive damage, in the first round xD.

P.S: You're cheating... It's supposed to be you against your friend, not the whole Playground against him

[Douglas]

Ok, you're going to want the Planning and Undeath domains because they give Extend Spell and Extra Turning as bonus feats. You will also need to spend feats on Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell). Assuming human, that leaves 6 feats. There's a good chance he'll build a Shock Trooper Ubercharger, and you can negate that with Dodge, Mobility, and Elusive Target. That leaves 3. Take Power Attack for one. I can't think of any obvious choices for the other two, so load up on two more Extra Turnings.

That's it for feats, now equipment. Get a weapon, +1 animated shield, mithral full plate, an amulet of natural armor, a strand/necklace of prayer beads, and a ring of enduring arcana (Complete Mage) to start with. Buy enough Nightsticks (Libris Mortis) to use DMM (Persist) on the following spells:
Greater Visage of the Deity
Holy Transformation
Holy Star
Divine Agility
Recitation
Righteous Might
Divine Power
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
Conviction
Sheltered Vitality
Freedom of Movement
Death Ward
Shield of Faith
Miracle duplicating Bite of the Werebear
Stormrage
Greater Blindsight

Also cast Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment (on both shield and armor), Superior Resistance, Heroes' Feast, Extended Fortunate Fate, and just to really be sure, Death Pact.

Load up on whatever equipment suits your fancy after that.

Use the bead of karma on the strand of prayer beads for your daily buffing, giving you an effective caster level of 28 when combined with the Ring of Enduring Arcana for all your buffs.

If you really want to screw with him, cast Miracle to duplicate Ironguard. Unless he's using a non-metallic weapon (not very likely, I think) you will be literally immune to his attacks.

Note: Some of the spells I listed are circumstantial and unlikely to be of use against him, but the circumstances under which they are useful can come up because of equipment and if they do those spells will be very useful. It only costs 13125 gp worth of Nightsticks per additional DMM (Persist) spell, so with a level 20 character's budget you can afford a pretty long list.

[Nohwl]

so just hit caster level 30 and cast holy word?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, winning initiative is everything. Spells like Sign (SC) and Moment of Prescience (via any of several domains) will ensure you victory in this regard.

Second, you have many ways of ensuring that he never even harms you, while he has no such measures apart from equipment. Just a Starmantle Cloak/Spell (BoED) and an Extraordinary Spell Aimed (CV) AMF and he has absolutely no chance of ever damaging your character unless he's specifically prepared for that situation.

If ESA:AMF and Starmantle are too cheesy, you could take the Trickery domain, max out Hide, and have Deeper Darkness and Ebon Eyes (SC) cast. Fighters don't get Spot as a class skill, so he would never even know where you're at short of Blindsense/Blindsight as long as you get a fairly decent bonus on top of skill ranks.

He has an opportunity to purchase armor and select defensive feats, you should have the opportunity to purchase and cast defensive items and spells. Your argument is that a Cleric is a better combatant than a Fighter because of his spells, so you should get to use them. Say that each character has the amount of time it takes to don a suit of Full Plate armor between waking up and going to the match. Your character will prepare spells in the evening and still have his entire allotment of spells still prepared from the previous day, and be able to devote that time to buffing prior to the match.

[Mushroom Ninja]

].
DMM (Persist) on the following spells:
Greater Visage of the Deity
Holy Transformation
Holy Star
Divine Agility
Recitation
Righteous Might
Divine Power
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
Conviction
Sheltered Vitality
Freedom of Movement
Death Ward
Shield of Faith
Miracle duplicating Bite of the Werebear
Stormrage
Greater Blindsight

Also cast Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment (on both shield and armor), Superior Resistance, Heroes' Feast, Extended Fortunate Fate, and just to really be sure, Death Pact.

That is a thoroughly disgusting number of persisted buffs. I approve.

But, are you sure that Death Ward/Sheltered Vitality are necessary?

[JeminiZero]

As mentioned, DMM persist is the backbone of any cleric-zilla. Other than that, you want to either go evil and drop a couple of DMM persist consumptive Fields to boost your caster level to high heaven, or grab Initiate of Mystra, which lets you cast and buff in an antimagic field. Ideally you would want both, but being a Cleric of Mystra tends to preclude being evil.

With consumptive field what happens is that you can increase your CL up to 0.5x your original, by killing some small helpless animals. So at level 20, you cast once and pump your CL to +10 for a total 30. Cast again, using your new CL of 30 and boost it to +15 for a CL of 35 (20+15). Its not 30+15 because repeated castings don't stack with one another directly. Cast a 3rd time and persist it on this casting, from a base 35 and pump your CL to +17 for a total of 37.

You can further boost CL by Ioun Stones and what not. Lets say you hit a caster level of 40. At this point, your Blasphemy/word of chaos/dictum will instantly drop anything with 30 HD or less dead, no save, bypasses immunity to death effects. Such as say, a level 20 fighter. You also automatically overcome any SR of 40 or less in case the fighter found some way to get that.

With the Initiate of Mystra, you may want to google the twice betrayer of Shar to see how to exploit DMM persist and AMF. Basically what happens is that you first drop an AMF on yourself, and then cast your buffs inside the AMF. The 3 key buffs are Delay Death, Woodland Ferocity, and Stone Body. Delay Death means you won't die when your HP drops below zero, Ferocity means that while your HP is below zero, you can fight as normal. Combined, it means that you cannot be killed by HP loss, while the spells are active. Stone body lets gives you immunity to ability damage, and you don't need to breath, so he can't try and drown you, or Mountain Tombstone Strike to kill you with Con damage.

While in the AMF, you are immune to Spells, SLAs, Su abilities, and of course magic weapons (like Vorpal). Importantly, Dispel Magic won't touch you hence protecting your buffs. By RAW, antimagic fields overlap with one another without any further effect, so if he tries to use, an AMF on you (e.g. antimagic torc), it simply overlaps with your field and leaves your buffs intact. In short, he can't dispel/deactivate your buffs, he can't kill you with HP damage, from thereon, its largely a war of attrition, with the odds seriously against him.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Buff time is very important. Hour/Level buffs should be allowed before the fight starts, since you cast those immediately after praying. Same with 10 min/level buffs, especially if you extend them. DMM Persistent Spell or Quicken Spell allows you to toss much better buffs than you could otherwise. I recommend Divine Powerp, Divine Favorp, Righteous Mightp, Freedom of Movement, Hastep(from the Time domain), Hero's Feast, Greater Magic Weapon, and Magic Vestments(core). Brilliant Bladep, Death Pact, Greater Visage of the Deityp, Fortunate Fate, Renewal Pact, Divine Agilityp, and Stalwart Pact. Grab the Planning and Time domains. First round cast Rod-maximized Time Stop and throw up 5 buff spells. Doing so means you only need 2 persisted spells from my list(the ones marked by p). Proceed to kill.

I'd also look into going Cheater of Mystra, getting immunity to AMF, then Persisting AMF to eliminate his nice magic weapon/armor/items.

If you really want to cheat, take the spells Death Throes and Death Pact. Proceed to dodge thrown books.

[Random NPC]

I say Disjunction the hell out of the fighter

[Douglas]

That is a thoroughly disgusting number of persisted buffs. I approve.

But, are you sure that Death Ward/Sheltered Vitality are necessary?

In this particular case, probably not but you never know if he's going to show up with Wounding or Enervating weapons.

Oh, and that's nothing compared to this.

I'd stay away from any AMF related shenanigans, along with hiding in darkness, etc. The point of this demonstration is imo to utterly outclass the fighter at his own game by the simple expedient of getting your attack bonus, damage, AC, hp, and other stats high enough that you can win easily by just standing there and exchanging blows. Known broken near-invulnerability combos don't really prove anything relevant to this discussion.

[Ponce]

Just try not to die because of massive damage, in the first round xD.

P.S: You're cheating... It's supposed to be you against your friend, not the whole Playground against him

This. I mean, not only is it level 20 which is horribly in favour of the cleric, but you're stacking a whole community against him. Does he even know you're doing this? I mean, it is pretty outrageous to make the claim that the cleric is better at fighting when you don't know why this may be the case. To be perfectly fair, with liberal application of dispel magic by the DM and good optimization on the part of the fighter, the whole Cleric>Fighter thing isn't really true for the first 5-10 levels, at least.

[SoD]

I mean, not only is it level 20 which is horribly in favour of the cleric, but you're stacking a whole community against him. Does he even know you're doing this?

Nope. And in my defense, I never said that I could create a cleric which was stronger than a fighter, I said that clerics (in general) are more powerful than fighters at melee.

I mean, it is pretty outrageous to make the claim that the cleric is better at fighting when you don't know why this may be the case.

I know why they are better at fighting. Because they get access to defensive magic, to prevent them from getting hurt, they get acess to buffs, which gives them the ability to become more powerful, and they get acess to healing magic, which allows them to heal themselves if they get hurt [duh]. I'm just no good at optomising.

To be perfectly fair, with liberal application of dispel magic by the DM and good optimization on the part of the fighter, the whole Cleric>Fighter thing isn't really true for the first 5-10 levels, at least.

I see...so if the DM throws stuff at the cleric which inhibits its ability to be better than a fighter, then the fighter will be better than the cleric? Also, your situation assumes the part of a campaign, with a party vs. something. I'm talking purely cleric vs. fighter.

Also, to the rest of the playground, thank you so far, and I'll see if I can get ground rules up soon (as soon as I know them!).

[Keld Denar]

I'm really surprised noone mentioned cleric archer yet. I believe there was a fighter vs cleric duel over on CharOp, and the cleric that won did so by Time Stop + buffs + Knowledge Devotion + peppering with arrows. Fairly easy to do, and with the right domains, you don't even need DMM Persist.

[FinalJustice]

Buy a Vorpal Weapon. Cast Surge of Fortune (persist, if you may). Discharge it to treat you first attack as a nat 20. Now it's just a matter of confirming the critical.

Cleric archer is also a good one. Better than meleeing with a fighter, which will probably be either an ubercharger or a tripmonkey.

[Eldariel]

You could of course use Initiate of Mystra-trickery to Persist AMF on you and then cast all your buffs. Also, it's worth considering the option of just screwing the armor and using a Monk's Belt instead. And do remember to either Miracle or gain Hero-domain to Persist Giant Size. The boosts are enormous. Note that all the spells Douglas listed are either in PHB or Spell Compendium.

[Heliomance]

Incidentally, how do you build a Clericzilla without DMM Persist? Without it, most of their buffs are short enough duration that you need to spend several rounds putting them up at the beginning of battle, meaning that by the time you're ready to fight the battle's over.

[Eldariel]

Incidentally, how do you build a Clericzilla without DMM Persist? Without it, most of their buffs are short enough duration that you need to spend several rounds putting them up at the beginning of battle, meaning that by the time you're ready to fight the battle's over.

You buff for 1 round and then cast quickened buffs for as long as need be. Alternatively, if the fight is to be short, you just Quicken Divine Power and wade in, Quickening Righteous Might or Divine Favor the next turn. And of course have the Hour/Level and perhaps some 10 Min/Level-buffs on.

[Dyllan]

I'm really surprised noone mentioned cleric archer yet. I believe there was a fighter vs cleric duel over on CharOp, and the cleric that won did so by Time Stop + buffs + Knowledge Devotion + peppering with arrows. Fairly easy to do, and with the right domains, you don't even need DMM Persist.

I think that's because the OP asked for a melee build, not an archery build.

Yes, cleric archer is awesome, but I don't think it's what the OP was looking for here.

One other question about rules: All 3.5 books are allowed. What about Dragon Magazine?

[Zergrusheddie]

Considering you are going to be large and most likely have a better strength than him, tripping isn't going to be something to worry about. If he does a Spiked Chain Lockdown build you might be in trouble if you don't have any spells to blow him away.

He will probably go as a Charger, which means if you lose Initiative you will probably lose because he'll probably one shot you if he is the power gamer that you say he is. Elusive Target is going to make his Charger do almost no damage. Hell, if you have Elusive Target, you can probably kill him faster than he can kill you. Full-Power Attack with a DMM: Quicken Harm with each hit would hurt. And if you get low, Quicken Heal.

Of course, you could go with a Sun Domain and hit him with Sunburst. If he fails his Reflex, he loses.

[Ponce]

Nope. And in my defense, I never said that I could create a cleric which was stronger than a fighter, I said that clerics (in general) are more powerful than fighters at melee.



I know why they are better at fighting. Because they get access to defensive magic, to prevent them from getting hurt, they get acess to buffs, which gives them the ability to become more powerful, and they get acess to healing magic, which allows them to heal themselves if they get hurt [duh]. I'm just no good at optomising.



I see...so if the DM throws stuff at the cleric which inhibits its ability to be better than a fighter, then the fighter will be better than the cleric? Also, your situation assumes the part of a campaign, with a party vs. something. I'm talking purely cleric vs. fighter.

Also, to the rest of the playground, thank you so far, and I'll see if I can get ground rules up soon (as soon as I know them!).

Well thats just my point. A well optimized fighter isn't actually that weak (at melee, anyway). If he starts breaking out things like Battle Jump, Shock Trooper, or Dungeon Crasher then he actually stands a good at beating you and his character will actually be a formidable melee combatant. If he doesn't, then the contest will be a bit misrepresentative.

The dispel magic thing is mainly with regard to the fact that it is a fairly simple and usually pretty common weapon, and can really take the wind out of the sails of a cleric, particularly one who makes heavy use of persistent spell or DMM.

At any rate though, assuming he is optimizing well, you might want to consider a monk's belt in favour of full plate.

[Eldariel]

The thing about DMM is that it allows you to use sitiuational CL boosters meaning you can have your CL 4-5 points higher than average making your spells very hard to Dispel.

Also, Rings of Counterspells with Greater Dispel Magic are standard fare for Clerics. With Hand of Glory, you'll have 3 ring slots; that said, if Ring of Greater Counterspells is available, at least one Mordenkainen's Disjunction should be there too (and with Spell Compendium, it gets a bit harder with more Dispel-effects in existence). And your Ring of Spell-Battle can be used to redirect any spell including Dispel Magic and Disjunction e.g. back to their caster. Then there's Battlemagic Perception for extra free counterspell attempt.

Bottomline, a DMM Cleric can very well-defended from Dispel-effects, and there's little reason not to be prepared against the single most effective course of attack vs. you. And that's without ripping out Initiate of Mystra and walking around in an Anti-Magic Field requiring at least a Disjunction for opponent to even affect you (and all melee combatants facing you are without any magic items, buffs or such while you're fully buffed).

[monty]

I seem to remember a weapon enhancement that made you immune to one specific spell of your choice. Anybody else know what it is?

[Eldariel]

I seem to remember a weapon enhancement that made you immune to one specific spell of your choice. Anybody else know what it is?

The only thing I can think of is the Spellblade. From Player's Guide to Faerun, methinks. It exactly does exactly what you described, so that it is. A 6000 gp enhancement. Totally super special awesome. Only works against targeted spells though.

[monty]

The only thing I can think of is the Spellblade. From Player's Guide to Faerun, methinks. It exactly does exactly what you described, so that it is. A 6000 gp enhancement. Totally super special awesome. Only works against targeted spells though.

Yeah, that was it. Put GDM on that, and you're much less vulnerable.

[Myrmex]

I see...so if the DM throws stuff at the cleric which inhibits its ability to be better than a fighter, then the fighter will be better than the cleric? Also, your situation assumes the part of a campaign, with a party vs. something. I'm talking purely cleric vs. fighter.

Not really. A DM really has to pull his punches so as not to turn a DMM cleric into a mediocre warrior. Virtually every outsider worth its CR gets Greater Dispel Magic at will, along with stuff like teleport and fly. If played with a fraction of their 18+ int, they are going to turn off all the clerics' buffs. Even +4 from a bead of karma isn't going to help when you're hit by enough dispel magics. Running encounters where your monsters don't debuff PCs is going to easy on the players, imo.

Of course, this is excluding greater consumptive field shenanigans. If your game is that level of broke, why'd the DM let anyone play a fighter?

[Eldariel]

Not really. A DM really has to pull his punches so as not to turn a DMM cleric into a mediocre warrior. Virtually every outsider worth its CR gets Greater Dispel Magic at will, along with stuff like teleport and fly. If played with a fraction of their 18+ int, they are going to turn off all the clerics' buffs. Even +4 from a bead of karma isn't going to help when you're hit by enough dispel magics. Running encounters where your monsters don't debuff PCs is going to easy on the players, imo.

Except Clerics have those same abilities as spells. And anti-Teleportation-abilities (Anticipate Teleportation, Dimensional Lock, Dimensional Anchor, etc.), meaning they'll easily get to the Outsiders if the Outsiders appear near them. And Outsiders have low CL (equal to HD and Outsiders are the one type with lowish HD) so their Dispel Magic will take a considerable time to do anything, especially through Beads (let alone Divine Spell Power). This is time you can't afford vs. a Cleric who teleports next to you and smites the living bejezus out of your evil ass, especially combined with the rest of the party.

So yea, Clerics ignore the first few Greater Dispels through variety of countermeasures (probably the Rings first, then Battlemagic Perception, or Spellblade if you happen to have one available), all the while he's busy teleporting next to the outsider, restricting its options and then smiting the living out of it.