20th Level Wizard takes on the Modern World

[pingcode20]

Alright, with the closure of the Wizard vs United States thread due to politics and religion getting tangled up in it, I think it might be an idea to reapproach it in a more codified manner.

The Ground Rules:
The Wizard
The Wizard is an arcane caster of 20th Level, with PC Wealth by Level. At the outset, the Wizard is Core only, and has his normal allotment of spells. He can be of any campaign setting that he has access to - initially, the only choice is Greyhawk.

He may use any Prestige Class he pleases, and may multiclass at will, so long as he retains the ability to cast 9th level arcane spells. However, this is, as before, subject to the books he has available - at the outset, this is Core Only. He may be of any alignment, although his goal remains to attack and conquer the Modern World.

All his equipment and magic are subject to the rules of DnD 3.5e - they inflict massive damage when they cause over 50 damage, and Domination is detectable on a DC 15 Sense Motive, et cetera.

However, the Wizard has the power to alter reality to improve his own power - he may, at his own discretion, open access to any WotC DnD 3.5 Sourcebook. However, this comes at a price, as will be elaborated shortly.

The Modern World

The Modern World functions as described in D20 Modern. As with the Wizard, at the outset they are restricted to Core only. Regardless of further changes, the Modern World does not possess Magic in any form.

As with the Wizard, equipment from the Modern World follows all the rules specific to D20 Modern - for example, Modern weapons inflict Massive Damage when the damage caused is greater than the target's constitution score. Non-unique rules, such as falling from a building, have their interactions resolved in favour of D20 Modern rules where applicable.

While initially the Modern World resembles ours, each time the Wizard meddles with reality, the Modern World advances in response. The first sourcebook the wizard grants himself causes the Modern World to gain access to D20 Future, and immediately advances to PL 6. Each subsequent sourcebook opened gives the Modern World the choice of: 1) Increasing its PL by 1 to a limit of PL 8, 2) Opening a new sourcebook, or 3) Opening a new Campaign setting (subject to the requirements of the setting - for instance, Star*Drive would only be accessible if the Modern World already has a PL of 7 or 8.).

Chapters One, Two, Four, and Eight of D20 Future are initially 'unlocked' by transition to D20 Future, with all other chapters remaining closed unless opened by campaign setting.

'Planes' are considered identical to 'Dimensions' for all intents and purposes.

Victory

The Wizard wins by successfully taking over or otherwise forcing to capitulate the Modern World.

The Modern World wins by either killing the wizard or by successfully conquering the Wizard's home reality.

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Given these ground rules, how would the wizard best go about conquering the Modern World, and how would the Modern World be able to survive said attack?

[Graymayre]

{Scrubbed}

[Siosilvar]

Given these ground rules, how would the wizard best go about conquering the Modern World, and how would the Modern World be able to survive said attack?

I can't say anything for strategy, but if Core Only isn't enough, the only other book I could see the Wizard needing was Spell Compendium, and maybe Complete Arcane/Mage. Sure, the others have some neat spells, but I'm sure most of them are in the Compendium.

[Myshlaevsky]

{Scrubbed}

Graymayre, please don't. The boards are obviously extremely sensitive to any kind of political or religious talk and it seems silly to sabotage (however jokingly) an attempt to restart an interesting thread.

[Shalist]

Straight lvl 20 bard...convert the millions (or whatever) of gold into billions of dollars to help with bribes, etc, and just go the diplomancer route. He'd have the entire UN eating out of the palm of his hand in no time, possibly without casting a single spell, much less starting any bothersome wars.

edit: (Meh, or I suppose you could sweep through the world on a wave of unstoppable destruction/etc, the various military powers and weapons of man powerless against you...just to die when you roll a natural one against the common cold on the eve of your 'victory' :P ).

[Istari]

What situation are we starting in?
Does the wizard just suddenly appear here or starting in Greyhawk and then planeshifing, etc.

[Kaihaku]

It's my opinion that a level 20 core-only Wizard could "take over" the modern world fairly easily from behind the scenes. Now directly "conquering" the world would be completely another matter and beyond even that level of power...but taking over through subterfuge and tactful manipulation via force, no problem.

[Lord Zentei]

If the Modern World gets a bead on the Wizard's location at any point, they break out the stops and drop a nuke on his location. The end.

If they never find him, then he can play hopskotch all over the map with Teleport.

As for conquering his home dimension: they have the option to again break out the nukes, then glass it.

All this assumes that they will be allowed nukes, of course. I don't recall seeing rules for them in the basic Modern rulebooks.

But how would a Modern setting go about attacking, let alone conquering an alternate reality? Is there some kind of portal technology they are granted access to, or do they have to wait for stardrives, or something?

[pingcode20]

Plane Shift would be the logical choice for dimension hopping. Same thing with Gate and the like.

---

I'll note that Bard 20 is actually an illegal build for the Wizard - he would have to be a Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 to get the requisite ninth level spells.

Also, converting the entire WBL into cash would work out to roughly 243 million USD on today's markets. It might also cause a slight dip in gold prices, but it's only 7 tonnes to the current world supply of almost 4000 tonnes. He'd get in the news, though - that's for sure.

[Yahzi]

Now directly "conquering" the world would be completely another matter and beyond even that level of power...but taking over through subterfuge and tactful manipulation via force, no problem.

Even a 20th level wizard doesn't have the sheer firepower of an aircraft carrier (at least, when measured in damage dice). {Scrubbed}

Raw force just isn't very good. Basically, you can only control as many people as you can talk to.

Behind the scenes, however... you don't need a 20th level wizard. A 1st level wizard could do it, with Charm Person. Remember Six degrees of separation? You're only six people away from someone who knows the president personally (or Kevin Bacon, which is almost as good).

So once a day you charm somebody to give you an introduction. And on the the 7th day you charm the president. Then you charm him into giving you a key cabinet post, and you start charming the congressmen who oppose you. You don't even have to charm them permanently; just long enough to get their vote on key bills.

Rinse/repeat with every other democratic nation. And the ones that aren't democratic are even easier: you only have to charm one guy.

Pulling off a coup and gaining total dictatorial power might require more levels, though. But certainly not 20.

{scrubbed} if you want to rule by fear... a single Shadow can defeat all the world's armies.

[puppyavenger]

If the Modern World gets a bead on the Wizard's location at any point, they break out the stops and drop a nuke on his location. The end.

If they never find him, then he can play hopskotch all over the map with Teleport.

As for conquering his home dimension: they have the option to again break out the nukes, then glass it.

All this assumes that they will be allowed nukes, of course. I don't recall seeing rules for them in the basic Modern rulebooks.

But how would a Modern setting go about attacking, let alone conquering an alternate reality? Is there some kind of portal technology they are granted access to, or do they have to wait for stardrives, or something?

foresight+time stop for avoiding nukes?


also, create a shadow, let lose in Chinese/Indian city, gain army immune to anything World has unless you use another source book for some reason.

[Nohwl]

i would start by trying wish. i would wish i ruled earth. if it works, it took 6 seconds. if not, noone knows.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

i would start by trying wish. i would wish i ruled earth. if it works, it took 6 seconds. if not, noone knows.

The problem is that a Wish both takes XP and can backfire completely. You don't want to end up ruling the world with a rebellion on your hands, do you?

[Lord Zentei]

Plane Shift would be the logical choice for dimension hopping. Same thing with Gate and the like.

No, I meant how does the Modern world go about invading the fantasy world, since that was a legal way for them to win.

foresight+time stop for avoiding nukes?

If he gets the time to cast Time Stop, that might work. Otherwise, not so good. You might want to put Contingency on it.

OTOH, there are numerous less banal ways of dealing with a wizard. Bullets at short range for one - don't say "protection from arrows", that's only good for DR 10/-. Poison too, though that might be too obvious. Betrayal.

I fear that this thread is going to manifest as another case of Batman Syndrome, i.e. the assumption that the wizard can do whatever if he is "prepared", this being demonstrated by the wizard spokesperson explaining what he would have done after the potential threat is mentioned. The question is, will he be prepared for the particular thing which is thrown at him? Since there is a limit to what anyone can anticipate in advance (ask anyone who has lost a high-level wizard during a game). That question, I fear, cannot be answered so easily.

also, create a shadow, let lose in Chinese/Indian city, gain army immune to anything World has unless you use another source book for some reason.

In the latter case, we have MAD, unless the clerics of the Modern world have access to Turn Undead, which they would be assumed to do (unless otherwise stated).

i would start by trying wish. i would wish i ruled earth. if it works, it took 6 seconds. if not, noone knows.

There are limits to what Wish can do. If it was that easy, the first 17th+ level mage to gain that spell in their home dimension would have done so already.

[Jack_Simth]

Let's see....

Plane Shift (or Gate, whichever) to Earth during a Time Stop, and immediately Shapechange and go underground. Use a Silent/Stilled Disintegrate to open up a small chamber somewhere in solid stone. Turn back to normal, and use a few regular Disintegrate spells to make it sizeable. This is your work area.
Using a Circlet of Persuasion, a Cloak of Charisma, and the Moment of Prescience spell, Planar Bind a couple of Succubi. Have them replace world leaders. +19 Bluff Modifier, +27 Disguise modifier when using Alternate Form. They take 10 on their skills, and nobody can tell the difference (DC 29 Sense Motive, DC 37 or 39 Spot). While he can use Dominate Monster on them, and potentially the Succubi can Bluff away the Sense Motive to tell they're Dominated (assuming that act like the person would is reasonably within both the orders for Dominate Person and a valid use of Bluff), there is little point - this form of deception is in their nature, and he can quite easily detect and dispose of them if they don't follow his rules (Permanency Arcane Sight + Dismissal). Contingency trigger is something you can take out of turn - attempting to talk, for instance, and is simply to escape. Spend most of your time in a Magnificient Mansion, make sure to have a Ring of Invisibility, and you're golden.

Alternately, it depends on what you want to consider conquering and capitulation. Mass Suggestion, for instance, is a DC 25 Sense Motive to note (most people won't), and can quite easily be used to get most governments to do whatever you want with little to no difficulty (when used in conjunction with a Ring of Invisibility, Improved Invisibility, Greater Teleport, and whatever divinations happen to be appropriate for finding out when the ruler and his advisors will be in one place at one time). An Imp familiar (Improved Familiar feat) wouldn't be remiss (Flight, Notable DR, Fast Healing, and at-will invisibility get you a lot of very effective spying)

Enervation + Command Undead = Self-Replicating LE army.

There's a couple of different tracks, most of which never reveal the Wizard's presence.

[Pie Guy]

Dominate person, Dominate person, Dominate person, Mind Rape.

There, dominate president, continue to blow up every nation on planet with nukes, stand victoriously atop your pile of skulls. Easy.

[Ellisthion]

Hmm. This post ended up being a lot longer than I planned.

I'm going to try to analyze this from the perspective of the Wizard using basically no cheese whatsoever: it's not needed. He already has more than enough power to take over the world.

What the Wizard really needs is allies. It would be basically impossible to hold even a single country by force without allies. While the Wizard could use summons and the like, it would be significantly better to enlist the aid of a country. People have already commented about various cheese that could be used to accomplish this, but without cheese is more interesting.

Pretending to be a deity is a decent option, but it could go bad. I'm assuming that the Modern world will, sooner or later, understand the Wizard's power is "just" magic, which could unravel it all. However, since the Wizard can teleport around and the like, there's no reason he can't try this in addition to other methods. Another method could be infiltrating a government, and using magic to manipulate things a bit, become elected as the leader of the country. At this early stage, the Modern side really can't do much, since they aren't aware anything is happening.

However he does it, the Wizard will need to declare war: he can't subvert the whole world. Since it will be, country-wise, 1 vs many, or at least few vs many, the Wizard needs to use his own power to push the war into his favour.

The Wizard's first aim would be, I think, to create a safe sanctuary to rest in. Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion might work, if there's no way that technology can get the Modern dudes in there (I don't know much about the Modern rules, I'm afraid). Otherwise, it is essential that this location cannot be found by any method, because if the Wizard can be ambushed while resting, then the Modern guys win. Simply being within his allied country is not enough, because one of the best options for the Modern side is to make extensive use of black ops.

When venturing outside, having a Contingency to escape is obviously essential, and Foresight for dangerous areas. The more protection, the better, because half the Modern world is gunning for him.

From the Modern perspective, finding the Wizard's sanctuary (if possible) is extremely important. Other than that, they need to maintain perfect communication and be able to respond to any attack as fast as possible. The Wizard should, naturally, attempt to cripple the communications network. If possible, taking down satellites and submarine cables may help. Detecting the presence of the Wizard in cast of Illusions (like Invisibility) and the like is essential for the Modern side.

For the tactics of individual encounters, traps (like anti-personnel mines) would be very useful for the Modern side, both to keep the Wizard on the edge, and use his resources, although this does require the Modern side to be aware of the Wizard's movements.

If the Wizard can ever be pinned down, he's dead. It doesn't really matter how many spells he's got, a few artillery barrages or bombs will probably work. This means he has to exploit his most important advantage: maneuverability. Using Greater Teleport, the Wizard can strike at any location in the world, and, by using the right spells, can thus take down any target in the world. Ideally, the Wizard should enlist an elite special ops team to go with him on these Teleport attacks.

The Modern side would basically have to keep all military on permanent high alert, and all aircraft ready to scramble. If the Wizard ever makes the mistake of staying in the same location for more than a few minutes, they should exploit it. The Wizard, on the other hand, should try to use Illusions to distract heavy support, and Divinations to detect if the heavy support is coming.

Overall, I think if the Wizard plays his cards right, then he can't be stopped. Probably the worst thing he can do is access other source books for more power: he's got enough, and any additional technology on the Modern side makes it easier to both detect and respond to the Wizard's strikes. If he's clever, and has a decently strong country on his side, then it would be a perfect war: the Wizard's enemies can't defend against mundane attacks if the Wizard can strike every base, airfield, missile silo, and naval base swiftly and effectively. Once the defenders' military is crushed, they will have no choice but to surrender.

[Jack_Simth]

Dominate person, Dominate person, Dominate person, Mind Rape.

There, dominate president, continue to blow up every nation on planet with nukes, stand victoriously atop your pile of skulls. Easy.

Not necessarily. Domination effects are a mere DC 15 Sense Motive - do you really think there won't be someone in the cabinet, senate, or congress that can't make that? Additionally, a President can be impeached or assasinated. You can't rely on Dominate Person (although Mindrape probably works - it's technically DC 25 to note, so it's a lot less likely to be found, and once found, a lot less likely to be acted upon as you'll need quite a few people to agree that the president has been suborned - of course, Mindrape also requires the Book of Vile Darkness, which puts the world up to d20 Future....).

[Nohwl]

The problem is that a Wish both takes XP and can backfire completely. You don't want to end up ruling the world with a rebellion on your hands, do you?

the goal was to just rule the world. there is no set amount of time i need to keep control of it for. if the spell doesnt give me control of the world, then its just 5000 experience that i lose. noone would be able to tell that i cast a spell, so why not give it a shot?

[Lord Zentei]

Let's see....

Enervation + Command Undead = Self-Replicating LE army.

There's a couple of different tracks, most of which never reveal the Wizard's presence.

A self replicating LE army which does not obey you.

As for the others, they assume that the modern world has no way to detect the wizard. Unfortunately, even the basic d20 Modern set has a range of classes geared for anti magic detective work even without magic items.

Dominate person, Dominate person, Dominate person, Mind Rape.

There, dominate president, continue to blow up every nation on planet with nukes, stand victoriously atop your pile of skulls. Easy.

Whoops, wank alert!

[puppyavenger]

In the latter case, we have MAD, unless the clerics of the Modern world have access to Turn Undead, which they would be assumed to do (unless otherwise stated).

why do we assume that? it's explicitly stated that they have nothing supernatural.

[Yukitsu]

Bullets do at most 2d10, and as such, cause an average of 1, and must get past AC. A value that is strangely high, as wizards have access to both magical defenses and magical equipment. Even a tank round is equivalent only to a fireball in pure damage terms, and frankly, most wizards survive that easily enough.

I'd just enervate people by the boatloads in reletive reclusion and secrecy before unleashing them on the world. Probably carry around a gun of some sort. Even without proficiency, I'd have +6 to hit with 2 attacks, which is better than 99.9% of the earths population. I'd like to point out that a wight infestation is much, much more severe than a mere zombie apocolypse.

[Lord Zentei]

the goal was to just rule the world. there is no set amount of time i need to keep control of it for. if the spell doesnt give me control of the world, then its just 5000 experience that i lose. noone would be able to tell that i cast a spell, so why not give it a shot?

How much XP do you have to burn?

And again, there is a limit to what Wish can do. Ruling a world is not one of those things which one could reasonably expect to be within its range.

[Lord Zentei]

Bullets do at most 2d10, and as such, cause an average of 1, and must get past AC. A value that is strangely high, as wizards have access to both magical defenses and magical equipment. Even a tank round is equivalent only to a fireball in pure damage terms, and frankly, most wizards survive that easily enough.

I'd just enervate people by the boatloads in reletive reclusion and secrecy before unleashing them on the world. Probably carry around a gun of some sort. Even without proficiency, I'd have +6 to hit with 2 attacks, which is better than 99.9% of the earths population. I'd like to point out that a wight infestation is much, much more severe than a mere zombie apocolypse.

Bullets do 2d10 when you fire one bullet, a simple burst does 4d10. Tank rounds do 10d12, IIRC, and don't allow a saving throw. Let's stick to the facts, here.

EDIT: again with the Enervation. How are you going to get the Wights to obey you?

[puppyavenger]

Bullets do 2d10 when you fire one bullet, a simple burst does 4d10. Tank rounds do 10d12, IIRC, and don't allow a saving throw. Let's stick to the facts, here.

EDIT: again with the Enervation. How are you going to get the Wights to obey you?

but they do need to hit, so just use al the usual tricks wizards have.

[Lord Zentei]

why do we assume that? it's explicitly stated that they have nothing supernatural.

Not quite. He said the Modern world did not possess MAGIC. Turn Undead is a class ability.

but they do need to hit, so just use al the usual tricks wizards have.

Right, because no-one ever hit a wizard with a ranged attack roll.

[Yukitsu]

A tank round that allows no save is 10 d6 on a hit to AC. It's a reflex for half with a near hit. The advantage of tank rounds is that they ignore 10 points of hardness on a direct hit. A tank will not be able to hit the AC of a typical wizard, if he cares. Likewise, a burstfire shot requires a feat, and gives a -4 to hit.

[Yukitsu]

EDIT: again with the Enervation. How are you going to get the Wights to obey you?

Who cares? I'll be in Jamaica while lower Manhatten and every populated city on earth gets to go all world war Z on itself.

[Nohwl]

How much XP do you have to burn?

And again, there is a limit to what Wish can do. Ruling a world is not one of those things which one could reasonably expect to be within its range.

buy a scroll of wish before leaving your dimesion if you dont want to pay the cost. or gain 5000 xp and use that to pay for it.

wish can also do things more powerful than what is listed. it will probably have side effects like a rebellion soon if it does succeed, or it flat out wont work.

it gives you a chance to succeed. thats worth a shot if your goal is to conquer the world and you dont care for how long you are in control of it for, or if anything happens to it immediately after you take control.

[Lord Zentei]

A tank round that allows no save is 10 d6 on a hit to AC. It's a reflex for half with a near hit. The advantage of tank rounds is that they ignore 10 points of hardness on a direct hit. A tank will not be able to hit the AC of a typical wizard, if he cares. Likewise, a burstfire shot requires a feat, and gives a -4 to hit.

A shoulder launched missile launcher deals 10d6, I am pretty sure that the tank round does more than that. Of course, I could misremember. d20 Modern is just as silly in many respects as the fantasy version, what with armor class protecting people in situations where it shouldn't. In any case, the tank was more an illustration of the damage potential and the relative uselessness of DR for defense, not as a weapon of choice.