[4E]Deck of Many Things

[Oracle_Hunter]

In the campaign I am in, we just received a Deck of Many Things. The DM is new to gaming in general (this is one of his first campaigns) and is planning to just use the 3.5 Rules, but after looking them over again, I think some of them need changing to make sense within 4E's framework.

Here's my list of possible problems:

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Euryale (-1 penalty on all saving throws henceforth)
Saving throws are different in 4E. A -1 penalty is steep, but still in line with the powers of the Deck, but perhaps this would be better taken as a penalty to all NADs. If so, how much?

Fool (Lose 10,000 experience points and you must draw again)
Valuation change.

Gem (Gain your choice of twenty-five pieces of jewelry or fifty gems)
Valuation change.

Jester (Gain 10,000 XP or two more draws from the deck)
Valuation change.

Key (Gain a major magic weapon)
What counts as a "major magic weapon?"

Moon (You are granted 1d4 wishes)
Should we keep using standard Wish rules, or is there a better 4E analog?

Skull (Defeat dread wraith or be forever destroyed)
What should the next Death be?

Sun (Gain beneficial medium wondrous item and 50,000 XP)
What is a "medium wondrous item;" and how much would 50K XP be in 4E terms?

Throne (Gain a +6 bonus on Diplomacy checks plus a small keep)
Skills work very differently now; what is an appropriate boost?

So, how would you alter these cards?

Additionally, me and some of the old schoolers in the group were remembering a 2E version of the Deck which was hardcore. I think it was the Major Deck of Many Things - I saw it in my copy of the Encyclopedia Magica, which is not easily available - and I was wondering if anyone else could check it and see whether such a Deck existed, and what it did.

[Tehnar]

Euryale (-1 penalty on all saving throws henceforth)
I would go with penalty to NADs

Fool (Lose 10,000 experience points and you must draw again)
I would keep it at the same amount. Or maybe increase to 15,000

Gem (Gain your choice of twenty-five pieces of jewelry or fifty gems)
Hmm, hand out 25 parcels of gems from a level 15 treasure

Jester (Gain 10,000 XP or two more draws from the deck)
Same as for fool.

Key (Gain a major magic weapon)
I think a +4 or above is a major magic weapon.

Moon (You are granted 1d4 wishes)
Should we keep using standard Wish rules, or is there a better 4E analog?
I say use the 3.5 rules, then modify wishes made by 4.0

Skull (Defeat dread wraith or be forever destroyed)
What should the next Death be?
Haven't fiddled with MM yet, maybe those level 25+ undead that start with a S

Sun (Gain beneficial medium wondrous item and 50,000 XP)
What is a "medium wondrous item;" and how much would 50K XP be in 4E terms?
I say keep the XP, and a medium item is a paragon tier one.

Throne (Gain a +6 bonus on Diplomacy checks plus a small keep)
Skills work very differently now; what is an appropriate boost?
I would go with a +2 or +3 permanent power bonus to diplomacy. Keep the keep :P the same.

[Thane of Fife]

dditionally, me and some of the old schoolers in the group were remembering a 2E version of the Deck which was hardcore. I think it was the Major Deck of Many Things - I saw it in my copy of the Encyclopedia Magica, which is not easily available - and I was wondering if anyone else could check it and see whether such a Deck existed, and what it did.

While a major deck doesn't strike my memory, I believe the Encyclopedia Magica (that's the magic item compendium, right?) had an alternate Deck which used Tarot Cards instead of regular ones. I believe that the effects were generally related to the cards' meanings. I think, though I am unsure, that they were generally helpful if drawn correctly oriented, and bad if drawn reversed. The face cards in particular were all summons - that much I'm sure of.

Sorry not to be more help.

[RTGoodman]

Here's some ideas for them:


Euryale: I think a -1 to NADs works. I mean, it's essentially the same thing, right?

Jester and Fool: 10,000 XP in 3.x is enough to get you from 1st to 5th level in one jump, if you were allowed to gain more than one level at once. It's still half a level from 19th to 20th, so it's still good then, too. In 4E, though, XP follows a very different pattern, and what's good at low levels (5,000 XP) is a mere pittance at anything above paragon levels. I'd suggest just saying "Jester: You gain a level, and your XP is set to the halfway point between the new level and the next" and "Fool: You lose a level, and your XP is set to the minimum for the level below your current level." Or something like that.

Gem: You gain gold pieces, astral diamonds, or other gems with a value equal to a magic item of 2 levels higher than your current level.


Key: Gain any single magic item with a level equal to your level + 4.

Moon: Not sure here. Sorry.

Skull: You must defeat an aspect of death in single combat. At paragon tier, the aspect has the stats of a Sword Wraith (MM); at epic tier, it has stats the stats of a Dread Wraith (MM).

Sun: Gain any single magic item with a level equal to your level + 2, and your XP total becomes 1 less than the number needed for you to gain a level.

Throne: You gain a +5 bonus to Diplomacy checks.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Jester and Fool: 10,000 XP in 3.x is enough to get you from 1st to 5th level in one jump, if you were allowed to gain more than one level at once. It's still half a level from 19th to 20th, so it's still good then, too. In 4E, though, XP follows a very different pattern, and what's good at low levels (5,000 XP) is a mere pittance at anything above paragon levels. I'd suggest just saying "Jester: You gain a level, and your XP is set to the halfway point between the new level and the next" and "Fool: You lose a level, and your XP is set to the minimum for the level below your current level." Or something like that.

Sun: Gain any single magic item with a level equal to your level + 2, and your XP total becomes 1 less than the number needed for you to gain a level.

Did you reverse Jester/Fool and Sun?

The Sun card gave 50K XP in 3E, while Jester/Fool only did 10K...

[RTGoodman]

Did you reverse Jester/Fool and Sun?

The Sun card gave 50K XP in 3E, while Jester/Fool only did 10K...

Uh, yeah, maybe. I started writing the post and then left it for a while, and didn't check back over it when I finished it. Here's a fixed version.


Jester: Go up a level, and your XP becomes the minimum for your new level. You may draw twice more.

Fool: You lose a level and your XP becomes the minimum for your new level. You must draw once more.

Sun: You gain two levels. (That should simplify things.) You gain any single magic item with a level equal to your new level + 2.

[Panda-s1]

Moon: You could probably get 3 destiny points from SWSE. They're not nearly as powerful as Wish, but being able to force rolls of 20 or 1 is pretty awesome. They do other things as well, but I forget exactly what else they do.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Moon: You could probably get 3 destiny points from SWSE. They're not nearly as powerful as Wish, but being able to force rolls of 20 or 1 is pretty awesome. They do other things as well, but I forget exactly what else they do.

I am unfamiliar with SWSE, but the idea of getting Destiny does sound interesting. Anyone got the full Destiny rules?

[TheOOB]

Hmm, I would avoid adding/subtracting xp, they really tried to avoid doing that in 4e, I would make them lasting, if small, buffs/debuffs.

As for the wish, I would allow a wish to replicate any power or ritual of your level or lower, to turn a single die roll into a 20, turn turn back time a small amount, or some other effect subject to DM fiat.

[Ascension]

I am unfamiliar with SWSE, but the idea of getting Destiny does sound interesting. Anyone got the full Destiny rules?

I'll PM them to you.

[Yakk]

Euryale (-1 penalty on all saving throws henceforth)
Saving throws are different in 4E. A -1 penalty is steep, but still in line with the powers of the Deck, but perhaps this would be better taken as a penalty to all NADs. If so, how much?

I like keeping it saving throws myself. Sure, it is an accident of name more than anything, but the idea that you are now more likely to screw up on "50-50 chances" from now on seems fitting.

Fool (Lose 10,000 experience points and you must draw again)
Valuation change.

Lose a level. If you are level 1, lose a level when you reach level 2.

Gem (Gain your choice of twenty-five pieces of jewelry or fifty gems)
Valuation change.

Gain gems and jewelry equal in value to a magic item of your level +5.

Jester (Gain 10,000 XP or two more draws from the deck)
Valuation change.

Gain a level.

Key (Gain a major magic weapon)
What counts as a "major magic weapon?"

Gain a magic item up to +10 levels above your character level.

Moon (You are granted 1d4 wishes)
Should we keep using standard Wish rules, or is there a better 4E analog?

Personally? 1d4 wishes, each no longer than 10 words. You don't know how many wishes you have until you run out. These wishes are powered by a minor deity of some kind, and are limited by what such a being (say, level 35 solo creature) could accomplish (which is quite extensive).

Skull (Defeat dread wraith or be forever destroyed)
What should the next Death be?

The DM should take a look at the party level, and generate/select from the MM a ~level+5ish creature for the drawing PC to duel (or level+0 to +1ish elite). I'd personally start with an undead and reskin it.

Sun (Gain beneficial medium wondrous item and 50,000 XP)
What is a "medium wondrous item;" and how much would 50K XP be in 4E terms?

Gain 2 levels, and a magic item of up to your level+5.

Throne (Gain a +6 bonus on Diplomacy checks plus a small keep)
Skills work very differently now; what is an appropriate boost?

Gain a +2 power bonus to diplomacy rolls per tier.

...

While we are at it, use the following "mentoring" rule:
If a character is adventuring with a character 1 level higher than them, gain 50% bonus XP until you catch up.

2 levels higher, 100% (x2) XP.

3 levels higher, 400% (x5) XP.

4 levels higher, x10 XP.

The point is that your lagging behind characters will ... well, it sucks. But mechanically, having people's levels be closer together makes things easier.

And it takes a hell of a long time (even with these large bonuses) to catch up to someone 1 or 2 levels ahead of you.

As a side benefit, characters who die in less than plot-forwarding circumstances, or just want to create a new character, can come back 4 levels behind the party, and they will catch up quickly. (First fight will probably earn them a level, after 3 fights they will be only 2 levels behind the party, then another 5 fights and they will be 1 level behind the party (assuming the party didn't level in the mean time).

[PrismaticPIA]

In the campaign I am in, we just received a Deck of Many Things. The DM is new to gaming in general (this is one of his first campaigns) and is planning to just use the 3.5 Rules, but after looking them over again, I think some of them need changing to make sense within 4E's framework.

Here's my list of possible problems:

Spoiler

Show

Euryale (-1 penalty on all saving throws henceforth)
Saving throws are different in 4E. A -1 penalty is steep, but still in line with the powers of the Deck, but perhaps this would be better taken as a penalty to all NADs. If so, how much?

Fool (Lose 10,000 experience points and you must draw again)
Valuation change.

Gem (Gain your choice of twenty-five pieces of jewelry or fifty gems)
Valuation change.

Jester (Gain 10,000 XP or two more draws from the deck)
Valuation change.

Key (Gain a major magic weapon)
What counts as a "major magic weapon?"

Moon (You are granted 1d4 wishes)
Should we keep using standard Wish rules, or is there a better 4E analog?

Skull (Defeat dread wraith or be forever destroyed)
What should the next Death be?

Sun (Gain beneficial medium wondrous item and 50,000 XP)
What is a "medium wondrous item;" and how much would 50K XP be in 4E terms?

Throne (Gain a +6 bonus on Diplomacy checks plus a small keep)
Skills work very differently now; what is an appropriate boost?

So, how would you alter these cards?

Additionally, me and some of the old schoolers in the group were remembering a 2E version of the Deck which was hardcore. I think it was the Major Deck of Many Things - I saw it in my copy of the Encyclopedia Magica, which is not easily available - and I was wondering if anyone else could check it and see whether such a Deck existed, and what it did.

Just summon 3.5 Pun-Pun. That's the only way you'll kill your game faster than a DoMT.

[KIDS]

I'd be careful with Wishes, but if you're using Deck of many things then it's assumed that you want some random arbitrareness in the game anyway.

Skull (Dread Wraith one) should probably be an undead of some kind, as Reaper-like as possible, but I'm not sure about its level. A normal monster 3 levels higher than the PC sounds ok but be warned - it will turn into a slugfest as both run out of powers in one on one combat.

Throne would be ok at +2 Diplomacy per tier as Yakk suggested, since numbers have changed in 4E. Fortunately, a keep is still a keep...

[horseboy]

IIRC a "Major" deck was the "full sized" deck. "Minor" had like 11 or so.

[OneFamiliarFace]

In keeping with 4e, it may be the best idea to just make it an Artifact whose magic item powers produce random encounter or daily effects and which has desires and affinity.

Actually though, I came up with some of these additions, and now I'm thinking about adding some similar effects to my games!

Ideas for Deck Changes:

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Euryale: -1 Pen to all NADs. (this still seems steep, so it should be able to be cured with an expensive ritual or something)

Fool: You must draw again, and you begin each of the next 10 skill challenges with one automatic failure.

Gem: Gain one (or more) non-magic item treasure parcels of your level selected by the DM. This does not count towards your normal allotment of parcels.

Jester: Either draw twice more from the deck, or receive an automatic success on each of your next 10 skill challenges.

Key: Gain a magic item of your level +3 (or +4), chosen by the DM.

Moon: Roll a 1d4. You can use any power or ritual open to any class of your level or lower that many times (or with no level restriction if you want to make it really powerful). Once you have used this granted ability that many times, it is gone forever.

Skull: The wraiths still work for death, and they have a good level spread, but some of them might ruin certain characters one on one. Maybe in an upcoming combat, a wraith (or other spectre) of the character's level will be present who only targets the player, and if this creature drops the player to 0, he/she dies.

Sun: Gain a magic item of your level +1 or +2, as chosen by the DM. In addition, you begin each of your next 10 skill challenges with one automatic success.

Throne: A local ruler grants you a small keep. In addition, add the paladin power 'Astral Speech' to your list of utility powers. If you already have that power, then you can now use it twice per day.

More on Sun, Jester, and Fool:

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The way I did it here would simulate the XP gain or loss, but this time it affects the whole party. Still, in a skill challenge, the party would be forced to suffer the bad or good luck of a bungler.

Alternatively, no XP or double XP monsters could be added to future encounters with an eye towards killing the PC who drew the card.

Finally, they could simply become auto-completions or failures to complete certain skill challenges. The fates of the deck conspire to help the group entirely or to destroy them.

Basic Design Ideas:

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Essentially, all of these were designed with an eye towards not giving the players anything they couldn't normally get at that level, but they would end up with more advantages or disadvantages of an appropriate level than they would normally have.

The keep one is still tricky, but it doesn't give the players any combat advantages unless they sell it, so as long as their is some restriction against selling it, the players should still roughly be on par with challenges of their level.

If you wanted to make everything more powerful and/or detrimental, then just increase the respective level for the treasure/magic items, increase the number of auto-failures or successes you get, or increase the level of the no-XP monsters they would have to face in Death and/or the Fool.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Just summon 3.5 Pun-Pun. That's the only way you'll kill your game faster than a DoMT.

This is a wacky campaign already. The only reason I'm worried about using this deck is that we have a couple of Clingy MacGuffins so if one of our MacGuffin-wielders gets Imprisoned (or worse, Void'd!) I don't know if we can re-tune the MacGuffins.

But hey, I'm not the DM - it's not my problem

[Thanatos 51-50]

For Skull:
Open Grave (4e Undead Sourcebook) actually has stats for a creature called a "reaper". They're very much the arctypical Death, robes, scythe, stupid arbritrary Evil alignment and all. There are three varieties listed.(a 9 Lurker, a 15 Elite Lurker and a 23 Elite Soldier/Leader).
Maybe one of these would be helpful?