Gestalt Help (Arcane//Divine)

[Thorin]

Sooooo...


Im trying to make this character work, but can´t decide how to make it right

Originally I thought:

Raptoran

Evoker 3 (ban ench&necro)/ Cloistered cleric 3
Master specialist 10 / Cloistered cleric 10
Archmage 5 / Cloistered cleric 5
Evoker 2 / Hierophant 2


Lvl 1 -> Collegiate Wizard (Complete Arcane, p 181)
-> Travel, Domination (Draconomicon, p 107) & Knowledge Domains
Lvl 3 -> School Focus (Evocation)
Lvl 6 -> Chain Spell (Complete Arcane, p 76) or Maximize Spell
Lvl 9 -> Divine Metamagic (Complete Divine)
Lvl 12-> Chain Spell (Complete Arcane, p 76) or Maximize Spell
Lvl 15-> Dunno
Lvl 18-> Dunno
Lvl 20-> Dunno


Then I thought, why I don´t make it a spontaneous caster?


Sorc 4 / Favored Soul 4
Geomancer 10 / Favored Soul 10
Archmage 5 / Favored Soul 5
XXXXXXXX 1 / Favored Soul 1

But In this one I can´t find the way to achieve the prereqs to Geomancer at early level


Finally Im thinking in Merge:

Sorc 4 / cloistered cleric 4
Geomancer 10 / cloistered cleric 10
Archmage 5 / cloistered cleric 5
XXXXXXXX 1 / cloistered cleric 1


Can someone pleeeeease recomend me a build for this?
Im really liking the last one, but im not really sure...

HELP!!!!!

PS: Thanks a lot

[RTGoodman]

I'm no caster expert, but I can tell you that your best bet is to go Wizard//Archivist. Since Archivist is Int-based for its spells, you're almost entirely reliant on Int for everything. There's even a feat floating around (Faerie Initiate Mysteries or somesuch, from a Dragon Magazine or the Dragon Compendium) that lets you use Int instead of Con for HP.

[JeminiZero]

Why not use Archvist instead of Cloistered Cleric. It can help reduce the MADness, and lets you focus on Int. To access DMM, you have to splash Sacred Exorcist somewhere along the way, but thats easily done on level 8, since the main pre-requisites are some skill points and ability to cast Dismissal.

So:

Wizard 3 / Archivist 3
Geomancer 4 / Archivist 4
Sacred Exorcist 1 / Archivist 1
Geomancer 6 / Archivist 6
Archmage 5 / Archivist 5
Sacred Exorcist 1 / Archivist 1

Since both Wizard and Archvist get Scribe Scroll, you may want to use a Wizard variant that loses that feat (and the unadvanced familiar) for something else.

[Thorin]

Forgot to tell:

No dragon Magazine Allowed!
Neither the Archivist (We didn´t buy that book, sucks to be me right now)

Geomancer lets you get the DC from just one stat (Wich would be Wisdom, although I´ll need a good Cha to learn high level Sorc spells)

PS: Archivist is from...

[Animefunkmaster]

Forgot to tell:
Neither the Archivist (We didn´t buy that book, sucks to be me right now)

Heroes of Horror.

Incidentally, everything you need to know about the archivist is in the excerpt. Found here on the WoTC site.

[monty]

Neither the Archivist (We didn´t buy that book, sucks to be me right now)

If not having the book is the only problem, then...problem solved!

Edit: Of course, ninjas have the book too.

[Tubercular Ox]

I guess that means Favored Soul (miniatures handbook, Charisma-based divine spells) is out, too.

You could go Illumian and get the thing that makes your spells Str-based. I think, haven't read the fine print on that one.

[monty]

I guess that means Favored Soul (miniatures handbook, Charisma-based divine spells) is out, too.

Favored Soul is from Complete Divine, and he had it in one of his initial builds anyway.

[Tubercular Ox]

Favored Soul is from Complete Divine, and he had it in one of his initial builds anyway.

I guess that means I'm blind and stupid in multiple ways. I just did a quick google...
*blushes horribly*
*sneaks off stage*

EDIT: The illumian thing... is only bonus spells, not DCs or spells castable, which only increases MAD. Suddenly, I wonder... who takes that? I hear people recommend it.

So I lose on both counts.

[dspeyer]

Sorcerer // Cleric is nice. It lets you use your most common spells lots without worrying about needing those particulars again, but also lets you prepare really obscure spells on a day's warning. I'd say it beats wizard // favored soul because you get the free spontaneous healing and all published cleric spells is a much larger selection than any wizard's spellbook. Also, you only need two abilities, and the sorcerer's charisma powers the cleric's turn undead.

Beyond that, Incantrix is a good prestige class. All it's powers apply to spells cast on the other side, too. Drop divination (as a sorcerer, you can do that) because most good high-level divination has divine equivalents (especially with knowledge domain).

Cloistered cleric is strictly better than ordinary cleric for a character who never wants to get into melee, which which is almost any with arcane spell failure.

Divine metamagic is your friend with this build. Quicken is a good one. So is persist, if you know what you're going to need. Chain spell is also useful if you plan to do a lot of buffing (combine with reach spell, decrease both costs by 1 with incantrix and then dmm what remains to buff or heal the whole party).

As with any sorcerer who's planning to take a prestige class, your familiar is useless. Rapid metamagic is a good replacement.

Of course, this is only one approach. You may find The Urge to Theurge to be helpful.

[monty]

The illumian thing... is only bonus spells, not DCs or spells castable, which only increases MAD. Suddenly, I wonder... who takes that? I hear people recommend it.

It's decent for gishes, since you don't care about DCs, and if you get higher level spells at all, you can probably use items for a high enough score.

[Temp.]

The illumian thing... is only bonus spells, not DCs or spells castable, which only increases MAD. Suddenly, I wonder... who takes that? I hear people recommend it.

I've never heard talk of that. But Strength's way easier than any other stat to boost, so if you want to max your bonus spells, I could see it. And Gishes rarely care about DCs and boosting a secondary attribute to 19 by 20th level shouldn't be difficult.

Actually, looking at the Illumian racial abilities, Naenhoon is a 2/day Divine Metamagic that could Persist Arcane Spells, if that's your thing. Doesn't work with Quicken, though.

And I like Sorcerer//Cloistered Cleric as far as these dual caster options go.
Go Charisma > Wisdom > All.
Use DMM Persist, Quicken or Extend with buff effects to maximize Charisma use and to minimize the cost of a middling Wisdom score. Maybe DMM Chain to counteract the few spells per day thing.

I prefer this to Favored Soul because Turning effectively turns Divine spells into passive background effects, dancing around the action-limit problems dual casters normally face in gestalt.

[lvl 1 fighter]

Check this out: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archi...x.php/t-727724


Abjurer 3 / Master Specialist 6 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7 / MS +4

Your other half is Archivist 20.

[Thorin]

Thank you all for the help!

I dunno if i´ll go archivist (needs the DM approval) / wizard but surely is a god option

one last question: Where can I found Incantrix? can someone post a (legal) link as they made with the archivist?

[Swooper]

Where can I found Incantrix? can someone post a (legal) link as they made with the archivist?

Here it is.

Whatever you do, use Geomancer. It rocks for gestalt arcane//divine casters.

[PurinaDragonCho]

I dunno if i´ll go archivist (needs the DM approval)

Archivist is one of those classes that you should talk to your DM about before you take it, anyway.

Dark Knowledge sounds really awesome (and it is) - but it only works against any given creature one time (if the badguy gets away, you can't use it on him again). Also, if there are different creature types in a combat, it can be difficult to decide whather and when to use it, because you'd only get a benefit against the ghouls, not the zombies (for example). Also, spell selection and availability of scrolls is something you should talk about. Make sure you'll be able to get enough that you'll be happy - but not so much that you break the game (from getting paladin or adept spells at lower levels, for example).

But it is an awesome class, though. My favorite.

[Draz74]

Here it is.

I thought that was just the 3.0 version?

[Temp.]

Here it is.

Yea, that's 3.0's. 3.5's is in PGtF, has extra metamagic feats and has heaps more Metamagicky goodness. Not that the one you linked isn't a strong class, though.

But it is an awesome class, though. My favorite.

Heh. Whodathunkit?

[Myrmex]

Here it is.

Whatever you do, use Geomancer. It rocks for gestalt arcane//divine casters.

That's the bad version, unfortunately. The good version lets you make spellcraft checks to apply metamagic to spells being cast by others and spells with a duration.

Unless you're starting at a high level, or plan to use a lot of metamagic on blasty spells, I wouldn't take incantatrix past level 3. 5 more levels for two feats and a -1 metamagic cost is good, but kind of rough to play through, since you have to pass up archmage.

[monty]

Unless you're starting at a high level, or plan to use a lot of metamagic on blasty spells, I wouldn't take incantatrix past level 3. 5 more levels for two feats and a -1 metamagic cost is good, but kind of rough to play through, since you have to pass up archmage.

Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 10 / ...no Archmage? Or am I missing something?

[Myrmex]

Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 10 / ...no Archmage? Or am I missing something?

You can qualify for incantatrix at level 6? I thought it was higher. *Checks PGtF*

Huh. Thought you needed 5th level spells. That leaves room for Mindbender & Loremaster, too.

[Swooper]

Snap, I didn't know there were different versions and didn't bother to read the one I linked. Sorry about that.

[magic9mushroom]

Incantatrix is stinky cheese, as is a lot of stuff in the PGtF. Seriously, you lose NOTHING from Wizard bar a school and you get +2 bonus feats, a free epic feat (Improved Metamagic), and the equivalent of 2 more free feats (Instant Metamagic = Sudden Metamagic, but generalised).

And that's not counting:

- You can take control of someone else's spells if they aren't instantaneous

- You can metamagic another caster's spell for free

- You can metamagic any non-instant spell of your own for free

- You can metamagic items.

Seriously, just don't. It's as bad as Planar Shepherd.

[Myrmex]

You can qualify for incantatrix at level 6? I thought it was higher. *Checks PGtF*

Huh. Thought you needed 5th level spells. That leaves room for Mindbender & Loremaster, too.

I was sort of right. You can enter archmage at 13th level, which means if you went wizard 5/incanta8, then you don't get to pick up any other tasty gouda along the way. Unless you want to put off getting archmage. Personally, I'd rather have mindsight & archmage earlier, than universally lower metamagic and no free arcane reach or shaping.

[Eldariel]

I was sort of right. You can enter archmage at 13th level, which means if you went wizard 5/incanta8, then you don't get to pick up any other tasty gouda along the way. Unless you want to put off getting archmage. Personally, I'd rather have mindsight & archmage earlier, than universally lower metamagic and no free arcane reach or shaping.

There're few things that beat universally cheaper metamagic. Arcane Reach & Shaping aren't among them. Great abilities, to be sure, but think of Incantatar's level 10 ability:
A bunch of (broken) feats allow reducing the metamagic cost of one metamagic feat. Incantatrix's ability allows you to reduce all your (at least 5) metamagic feats! That means that your Quicken is mere +3 anymore (an amazing boost), Empower is +1, Heighten Spell is actually useful, etc. It's at least 3+ überstrong feats in 1. Heck, even your Persistent Spells are mere +5 anymore and Practical Metamagic drops that to already-very-reasonable +4 (of course, that doesn't really matter since you can Persist spells without adjusting spells at all as an Incantatar...).

Compared to Mastery of Shaping, which is 1 feat (Extraordinary Spell Aim), or Arcane Reach, which is a +2 Metamagic (incidentially, +1 with Incantatar's capstone), it's just not in the same ballpark. Don't get me wrong, Archmage is an amazing class, just...there's a reason Incantatrix is often banned, while Archmage is not. And since the most important Archmage tricks are replicable via. feats, the class is not strictly necessary for a solid caster.

Mindsight, now that's more interesting. Still, at this point you can already cast Greater Prying Eyes and some such.

[Myrmex]

The archmage's shaping ability is superior to the feat, as it lets you put a hole for yourself at the center of an AMF, etc. Also, I like spontaneous metmagic'ing everything for free, rather than burning feats on it and having to prepare. I'd rather put off level 10 of incanta for a couple of levels for mindsight at level 6 (broken), as well as having two metamagic feats free for arcane thesis abuse than picking up reach & shaping.

Prying eyes is an 8th level spell, as well as the eyes being visible and having to report back to you. It's an 8th level spell slot that you could be doing something else with, and each eye only works once. Mindsight is superior in almost every way, as far as seeing stuff within 100 ft of you.

What I'm saying is that incanta IS good, it's great, superb, but playing from level 1 to 15 (some of us do that), dips become much more attractive, as it's an immediate benefit. Like, say, mindsight, or an extra knowledge check, or small bonus to fort saves, at levels where that stuff matters more than jumping in at level 20.

[Eldariel]

The archmage's shaping ability is superior to the feat, as it lets you put a hole for yourself at the center of an AMF, etc.

The feat can do that too. What the feat can't do is leave multiple holes in some offensive spells, but that's not quite as important as Incantatar's ability.

Also, I like spontaneous metmagic'ing everything for free, rather than burning feats on it and having to prepare. I'd rather put off level 10 of incanta for a couple of levels for mindsight at level 6 (broken), as well as having two metamagic feats free for arcane thesis abuse than picking up reach & shaping.

Decent option, to be sure, but that means you're postponing your Incantatrix-abilities. I'd at least acquire all the Persisting-abilities before dipping off Incantatrix, and probably not before finishing Incantatrix.

Prying eyes is an 8th level spell, as well as the eyes being visible and having to report back to you. It's an 8th level spell slot that you could be doing something else with, and each eye only works once. Mindsight is superior in almost every way, as far as seeing stuff within 100 ft of you.

Yeah, point being that similar abilities are available as spells, albeit late. It's a great feat, for sure, but again, it's a question of the opportunity cost.

What I'm saying is that incanta IS good, it's great, superb, but playing from level 1 to 15 (some of us do that), dips become much more attractive, as it's an immediate benefit. Like, say, mindsight, or an extra knowledge check, or small bonus to fort saves, at levels where that stuff matters more than jumping in at level 20.

Sure, but frankly, if you play from 1-15, dipping out of Incantatrix just pushes the very best abilities in the game a level further. You might get good stuff from the dips, but you're giving even better stuff away. I'm not going to tell you it's wrong (because it isn't), but it does seem like the weaker option.

[monty]

Decent option, to be sure, but that means you're postponing your Incantatrix-abilities. I'd at least acquire all the Persisting-abilities before dipping off Incantatrix, and probably not before finishing Incantatrix.

Agreed. I'd go 3 levels at minimum in Incantatrix before any other classes.

[Myrmex]

Agreed. I'd go 3 levels at minimum in Incantatrix before any other classes.

If you can get away with it, 3 levels is absurd. That's where the real power is. That's the cleric with all his buffs up all day, the rogue with wraithstrike, concealment effects, golem&gravestrike, and you, with all your batman goodness. That lets the cleric invest in feats & items that aren't turns/day and DMM, and domains relevant to his character idea (not undeath & planning). And you're still a full caster and you haven't sacrificed any personal power to turn the party into little mini-deities. And this is all before level 10.

The 10th level capstone is really just gravy (made from elemental cheese). IMO, I'd rather have mindsight for 14 levels and arcane reach or shaping for 8. By the time you're getting to 15th level, you should have rods anyway. The difference between 6 levels of reduced metamagic and 4 by that point in the game just isn't that big as having the whole party hasted all day at level 9.

For me, I'd say the opportunity cost of passing spiffy stuff up at lower levels for a capstone at higher levels is higher, not lower. Mindsight when no one has mindsight is broken. Hm, this really seems to hinge around mindsight.

[Thorin]

I think I got it


Full Caster: Spontanious Arcane/Prepared Divine (Raptoran)

HD 6+19d6+bon con*20
BAB +17 0+1+0+1+0 +1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 +1+1+1+1+1
Ref +8 0+0+1+0+0 +1+0+1+1+0+1+1+0+1+1 +0+0+1+0+0
Fort +19 2+1+1+1+0 +2+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 +1+0+1+0+1
Will +21 2+1+0+1+0 +2+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 +2+1+1+1+1

Full Caster: Spontanious Arcane/Prepared Divine (Raptoran)

Sorc 5 / Cloistered cleric 5
Geomancer 10 / Cloistered cleric 10
Archmage 5 / Cloistered cleric 5

Lvl 1
-> (Player Handbook II: No familiar, metamagic don´t increase duration)
-> School Focus (Evocation)
-> Time (-> Improved Init), Domination (-> School Focus (enchantment)) & Knowledge Domains
Lvl 3 -> Chain Spell (Complete Arcane, p 76) or Maximize Spell
Lvl 6 -> Divine Metamagic (Complete Divine)
Lvl 9 -> Chain Spell (Complete Arcane, p 76) or Maximize Spell // Residual Magic
Lvl 12-> Extra turning // Quiquen Spell
Lvl 15-> Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
Lvl 18-> Spell penetration
Lvl 21-> Greater Spell Penetration

----------------------------------------------------------
lvl 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
arc 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
div 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
----------------------------------------------------------

Feats at level 9,12,18 and 21 can change according to items and quest
The 5th level in sorc is to replace it with "raptoran sorc"