The Optimized Party?

[Advocate]

There is a place for a rogue in an optimized party. As a 1-level dip for trapfinding and 1d6 SA. Maybe 2 levels if you want non-magical evasion and aren't getting it from another source. Assuming that you don't just go for a cleric with the kobold domain, of course.

As for detect magic and lead, that's definitely something you should expect in an optimized campaign. You're smart, so your enemies should be able to be as well. I find it funny that you call this "DM power-tripping" but a trap that's undetectable "because the creator is a magnificent bastard" is just fine. Any trap is detectable by search, how well it's hidden just makes the DC harder. Yes, that includes your symbol of death on the other side of the door. Really really hard to spot? Yes. Impossible? No. How is it possible? Hell if I know, but I don't have +40 to search and trapfinding, now do I?

Can you see through stone? Nope? Too bad. You can see it if you pass through the door, but by now it's already triggered on you. In fact, it'd be pretty easy to see and defeat from the other side of the door, seeing as symbols have to be in plain sight to do any good, and a sheet 100% negates them. That of course, is why they are used in such a way so as to not waste 5k. Get death immunity or die.

Also, optimized campaigns don't need suboptimal levels.

Ignoring your straw man.

[Eldariel]

There is a place for a rogue in an optimized party. As a 1-level dip for trapfinding and 1d6 SA. Maybe 2 levels if you want non-magical evasion and aren't getting it from another source. Assuming that you don't just go for a cleric with the kobold domain, of course.

To reiterate, both Beguiler & Artificer get Trapfinding on level 1, so if you really, really want a Trapfinder, get one of those (although getting an Artificer automatically makes the party much, much better anyways which is why I keep specifying it as the optimal trapfinder - you aren't taking it for Trapfinding, you're taking it for Good Stuff™ and get Trapfinding as a bonus). Why else would they be considered replacements? They beat out Cloistered Cleric by the virtue of being naturally Int-based, although I wouldn't hold the extra Cleric against you either (since Clerics kick ass).

[monty]

I've got the funny feeling I've told that to you before.

I remember this trick, which is definitely finite. You said "infinite," though, which is what threw me off.

[Eldariel]

I remember this trick, which is definitely finite. You said "infinite," though, which is what threw me off.

Yes, my bad on that; it's only "a sufficiently large number". A trick actually exists for infinite spells (it involves Absorbtion-spell and metamagic reducers), but it's most applicable for a Nova Sorcerer (at which point you're effectively infinitely powerful as you don't run out of spell slots nor actions and thus can cast as many spells in one turn as you want; I recall they're level 4 or lower); any Incantatrix can pull it off rather easily though, but you won't have the actions to make the most out of it without the Arcane Fusion+Arcane Spellsurge trickery.

[Deepblue706]

At level 1, the Wizard has 2 Color Sprays (save or lose for the whole encounter), and perhaps 3 or 4 if he has Int 20 and/or is specialized. The Druid has Entangle, multiple times. The Cleric has Command multiple times, and a CLW wand via gold pooling. The Artificer has a Bane: Whatever you're fighting crossbow, which does 1d8 + 2d6+2 (average 13.5 damage) and is therefore a save or die, vs AC. Not hard at all. Probably easier than a typical party.

This is a late reply; but stay with me, I was away a while.

Color Spray does have potential to end encounters, but the close range and the fact that every target gets a save means there's a fair chance even weak-willed enemies will make their saves, and the Wizard is in dangerous territory. I'd say this can be risky for most Wizards, unless they can afford very high DEX and CON. The need may be alleviated if they have dependable teammates who understand efficient ways to distract or disable an enemy.

Entangle is a great spell, but it unfortunately doesn't move once you cast it. If your enemies aren't bundled-up, it loses some of that greatness.

Command is another great choice, but it's a close-range, single-target spell which, while capable of granting significant advantages, doesn't necessarily end an encounter.

Artificer is badass.

Individually, each of these abilities are really, really strong; but my commentary was not based on how much hurt these guys can lay down, despite killing your enemy before he can hurt you being the absolute best defense. But rather, the Druid and Wizard are going to have to find creative ways to improve their own AC so that they don't get owned by missile weapons, as will a Cleric if he wants to avoid heavy armor. If I'm not mistaken, Artificers aren't too durable, either.

This group is highly effective, but I think they each, individually become signficantly more hindered when losing initiative than say, a Fighter; a weaker but, at this level, more reliable class. If other characters are down, he might not be able to do much to get them back on their feet; but the fact he can't be hurt so easily means the enemy should fear him, if he presents enough of a threat.

[Eldariel]

Bleh, if you're really worried, you can walk around with a Tower Shield in total cover; non-proficiency doesn't matter if you aren't attacking or using skills, and you can just drop it when it's time to cast. Also, Druid's AC really helps with the tanking.

And the Wizard should definitely specialise in such a versatile casting party; that puts you up to 3 spells per level and you can go up to 5 with Focused Specialist and 20 Int. I'd definitely expect no fewer than 3, and probably at least 4. That allows you to prepare a mix of Sleep & Color Spray. Maybe even a Grease.

[Deepblue706]

Bleh, if you're really worried, you can walk around with a Tower Shield in total cover; non-proficiency doesn't matter if you aren't attacking or using skills, and you can just drop it when it's time to cast. Also, Druid's AC really helps with the tanking.

And the Wizard should definitely specialise in such a versatile casting party; that puts you up to 3 spells per level and you can go up to 5 with Focused Specialist and 20 Int. I'd definitely expect no fewer than 3, and probably at least 4. That allows you to prepare a mix of Sleep & Color Spray. Maybe even a Grease.

Actually, Animal Companion is a really good point. A Riding Dog is about as effective as a poorly-made Fighter, which at low levels is still highly valuable for HP and a decent attack.

I had forgotten the Tower Shield was purely wooden; so that is another decent way to protect the Druid from missile attacks. However, a lack of proficiency will render him vulnerable to teams of melee and ranged enemies.

As far as the Wizard goes; I'm afraid I don't follow how you have 20 INT. I don't have a great deal of knowledge regarding non-standard races, and I was under the impression we were talking about from level 1-up. The only race that comes to mind at the moment is Gray-Elf, which has a CON penalty (and I wouldn't suggest playing unless you had very good rolls or had a very-high point-buy so that the penalty doesn't matter anyway). Or, an Old-Aged Human.

[Eldariel]

Gray, Fire & Sun Elves are all fine races; with your racial bonus to Dex & Int, you can generally afford to make up for the Dex penalty (and the Str/Cha penalty is rather inconsequential). 32pb gets you 6/16/14/20/8/8 array. 28pb admittedly probably sees 6/16/12/20/8/8 on low levels, so meh, and 25pb is mere 6/16/12/19/8/8.

Other Int-bonus races include:
Lesser Tiefling
Lesser Air Genasi
Lesser Fire Genasi
Deep Imaskari
off the top of my head.

Also, any of the Elves could be Dragonborn of Bahamut, negating the Con-penalty (and Dex-bonus) and picking up the Mind-aspect for all sorts of useful abilities.

Oh, and Spellcasting Prodigy with 18 also mimics the 20 and so on.

[Deepblue706]

Gray, Fire & Sun Elves are all fine races; with your racial bonus to Dex & Int, you can generally afford to make up for the Dex penalty (and the Str/Cha penalty is rather inconsequential). 32pb gets you 6/16/14/20/8/8 array. 28pb admittedly probably sees 6/16/12/20/8/8 on low levels, so meh, and 25pb is mere 6/16/12/19/8/8.

Not bad.

Other Int-bonus races include:
Lesser Tiefling
Lesser Air Genasi
Lesser Fire Genasi
Deep Imaskari
off the top of my head.

Forgot about Lesser Planetouched; honestly, I never liked the flavor and I've always instinctively avoided thinking about them. No idea what an Imaskari is, though.

Also, any of the Elves could be Dragonborn of Bahamut, negating the Con-penalty (and Dex-bonus) and picking up the Mind-aspect for all sorts of useful abilities.

Unfamiliar.

Oh, and Spellcasting Prodigy with 18 also mimics the 20 and so on.

I suppose that works if you get access to Faerun material...

[AgentPaper]

Can you see through stone? Nope? Too bad. You can see it if you pass through the door, but by now it's already triggered on you. In fact, it'd be pretty easy to see and defeat from the other side of the door, seeing as symbols have to be in plain sight to do any good, and a sheet 100% negates them. That of course, is why they are used in such a way so as to not waste 5k. Get death immunity or die.

Also, optimized campaigns don't need suboptimal levels.

Ignoring your straw man.

I never said you would see through the stone, don't put words in my mouth. And as I said, I don't know how you would spot this particular trap, but the point is that it's a trap, designed to set off with X trigger, and you're looking for traps, and roll high enough to spot the trap and not set it off. How exactly you do all this isn't important. Fact is, if you put in a trap somewhere, you can find it with a search check. If you say, "It's too well hidden, no search check!" then congratulations, rocks fall everyone dies.

And thank you for ignoring my argument and calling me a strawman. That really makes me want to take anything you say seriously.

[Eldariel]

Unfamiliar.

Deep Imaskari in "Underdark"-supplement. +2 Int, -2 Dex and this wonderful ability called "Spell Clutch", which allows them to re-prepare one of the 1st level slots they've prepared and cast that day. Making 'em effectively able to have 6 slots for the first level as 20 Int Focused Specialists.

Dragonborn of Bahamut are in Races of the Dragon; basically, any creature can be reborn through "Rites of Rebirth" with the Dragonborn template. It effectively does this:
-2 Dex, +2 Con

Lose all racial abilities such as skill bonuses, proficiencies, darkvision, low-light vision, bonus feats, etc. (maintain stat adjustments & movement speeds) and gain one of the three draconic aspects offered to a Dragonborn: Mind, Heart or Wings. Wings is obvious, Heart gives a breath weapon and Mind gives draconic senses (by far the best for a Wizard as they can acquire Wings & Breath Weapon on their own right from a different source). As a note, the aspect's bonuses increase as you rise in level. For example, level 1 Dragonborn can't fly with the wings yet; he can only do boosted jumps. Breath Weapon obviously increases in potency & so do the senses.

[Roderick_BR]

Is it a testament of the Beguiler's power that it gets some mentions in a thread about an OPTIMIZED party?

It's a testament to his usefulness. He pretty much clobbered the bard in the head and took his place, while pickpocketing the thief's skill and trap abilities, granting him an often-sure place in many gaming groups.

[Curmudgeon]

Flesh to Stone trap at level 6:

Rogue makes checks, doesn't get anywhere close to 30.

Nonsense. The Rogue gets a minimum of 30 on this check (i.e., when taking 10), and always finds this DC trap without effort. Since the Rogue has trap sense as well as trapfinding, (s)he gets "an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps" and automatically makes such Search checks without having to think about doing so.

10 ("take 10")
+9 (ranks)
+2 (INT 14)
+5 competence (Goggles of Minute Seeing)
+2 circumstance (masterwork trapfinding tool)
+2 racial (Elf)
---
30

Edit: Again, Rogues have no place in an optimized group. Stop it.

Artificers and Beguilers do not have trap sense. They've got to explicitly go about making Search checks to find traps that the Rogue makes automatically. The Elven Rogue also automatically makes checks to find secret or concealed doors. And with more skill points, the Rogue doesn't have to scrimp on skills and is just better at this sort of thing.

Additionally, the Elven Rogue has the ability and the time (4 extra hours daily not spent sleeping, plus 1 waiting for spellcaster preparation) to go about increasing their personal wealth. Wealth by Level is an average for characters. No self-respecting Rogue should ever be close to this average. They get their fair share of the party's acquisitions, and still have plenty of solo earning power. More money = better equipment = better capabilities = greater value to the party.

[Eldariel]

Artificers and Beguilers do not have trap sense. They've got to explicitly go about making Search checks to find traps that the Rogue makes automatically. The Elven Rogue also automatically makes checks to find secret or concealed doors. And with more skill points, the Rogue doesn't have to scrimp on skills and is just better at this sort of thing.

I don't think Trap Sense does what you think it does. Trap Sense grants you +1 bonus to Reflex & AC vs. traps. It does not make Search-checks automatically; all it does is make a triggered trap hurt you less. It's very explicit about its benefits and "making Search-checks automatically" is not one of them. In fact, automatic trapfinding is an epic feat (no, it shouldn't be, but it is). As far as trapfinding goes, Beguiler & Artificer have exact same abilities, except better average check result due to having their primary stat for trapfinding.

Additionally, the Elven Rogue has the ability and the time (4 extra hours daily not spent sleeping, plus 1 waiting for spellcaster preparation) to go about increasing their personal wealth. Wealth by Level is an average for characters. No self-respecting Rogue should ever be close to this average. They get their fair share of the party's acquisitions, and still have plenty of solo earning power. More money = better equipment = better capabilities = greater value to the party.

Huh? When you're adventuring, chances are you aren't near any cities and there isn't much worth stealing. When you're not adventuring, everyone can be making "extra money" in the same way; casters can use spells where Rogue uses skills. Oh, and protecting your belongings against Teleport seems a wee bit harder (requires constant spells in effect) than protecting them against a burglar, albeit a skilled one.

And really, doing that seems like an epicly bad idea; eventually you'll get caught as you break into a place that was harder than it looked/some guards were nearby/you just had bad luck and at that point, you're in deep **** and depending on how close your ties are with the party, chances are the entire party might be.

Not to mention, if you're of any good or lawful alignment, chances are you won't be doing that (chaotic good might in some circumstances, but sure as hell not as a rule).

[Curmudgeon]

I don't think Trap Sense does what you think it does. Trap Sense grants you +1 bonus to Reflex & AC vs. traps. It does not make Search-checks automatically

Opinions differ. From Simple Q&A (By RAW) V:

A. 577

Q. 577
Are characters with the Trap Sense feat entitled to search for the trigger to a trap before they activate it, or are the just allowed to? (Assume Search DC is 21ish)

They get an automatic search check without having to actively be looking for traps.

You should note that the Rogue trap sense ability description is different than for other classes:

At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps.

Starting at 3rd level, a barbarian gains a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps.

I think the extra text has meaning, and the only reasonable game mechanic interpretation for "an intuitive sense" is automatic Search checks to find traps, similar to an Elf's automatic Search checks to find secret doors.

[Draz74]

The punctuation of the Rogue ability makes it pretty clear that the bonus to AC and Reflex saves is the manifestation of the "intuitive sense." Thus, the Rogue's Trap Sense is mechanically identical to the Barbarian's.

Why write it any differently, then? Flavor.

But wait, isn't it sloppy editing to have two identical abilities and word them differently, even for flavor? Sure, according to modern gamer standards, but Core is full of stuff like that.

[Eldariel]

Explain then, why Epic Trapfinding exists if the function is automatically available for Rogues anyways, and Rogue is the only class that can qualify for the feat within SRD rules in the first place?

As a note, the difference doesn't exist in PHB; both Barbarian & Rogue have the exact same ability. That's probably an error in SRD as no errata exists to remove that portition from Barbarian's ability. Seems strictly fluff to me.

I'd wager Silvanos is wrong on this account.

[monty]

Opinions differ. From Simple Q&A (By RAW) V:

While I admit that Silvanos is very knowledgeable, he is not perfect, and I believe he is incorrect in this case. Not only is there no explicit rule allowing free Search checks for rogues, the wording of the ability clearly implies that that's not what it means anyway.

Edit: Ninja'ed. That's what I get for replying to multiple posts at once.

[Curmudgeon]

Explain then, why Epic Trapfinding exists if the function is automatically available for Rogues anyways, and Rogue is the only class that can qualify for the feat within SRD rules in the first place?

Ah, thank you! You've found the explicit statement of how Trap Sense gives automatic Search checks. You see, Epic Trapfinding is actually a 3.0 feat named Trap Sense (Epic Level Handbook page 68). In 3.0 the Rogue didn't have Trap Sense as a class ability. The only update the feat got in the "FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE: Epic Level Handbook" is the name:

Two epic feats have received name changes. Beast Companion is now called Magical Beast Companion (see below), and Trap Sense is now called Epic Trapfinding.

Interestingly, the official online feat index still shows this as Trap Sense. It's redundant for Rogues, of course, but exists now for classes like the Beguiler who can eventually attain the same capability Rogues get at 3rd level.

As a note, the difference doesn't exist in PHB; both Barbarian & Rogue have the exact same ability.

Then both classes with Trap Sense should get automatic Search checks for traps. Without Trapfinding the Barbarian is limited to traps with DCs of 20 or lower, of course.

[monty]

Ah, thank you! You've found the explicit statement of how Trap Sense gives automatic Search checks. You see, Epic Trapfinding is actually a 3.0 feat named Trap Sense (Epic Level Handbook page 68). In 3.0 the Rogue didn't have Trap Sense as a class ability. The only update the feat got in the "FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE: Epic Level Handbook" is the name:

Interestingly, the official online feat index still shows this as Trap Sense. It's redundant for Rogues, of course, but exists now for classes like the Beguiler who can eventually attain the same capability Rogues get at 3rd level.

Just because it has the same name doesn't mean that it's the same ability.

Let's make this simple. Where in the description of the rogue ability does it say that they get automatic Search checks? If it's not there, then by RAW it doesn't exist. Anyway, let's look at the syntax again:

At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps.

Notice that it lists the fluff (intuitive sense), and immediately follows it with the mechanical bonuses. This pretty much explicitly spells out what it means: the intuitive sense isn't a Geiger counter telling you there's a trap nearby; it's just a feeling that gives you a split-second warning that something bad's about to happen so you can jump out of the way or whatever.

[Eldariel]

Ah, thank you! You've found the explicit statement of how Trap Sense gives automatic Search checks. You see, Epic Trapfinding is actually a 3.0 feat named Trap Sense (Epic Level Handbook page 68). In 3.0 the Rogue didn't have Trap Sense as a class ability. The only update the feat got in the "FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE: Epic Level Handbook" is the name: Interestingly, the official online feat index still shows this as Trap Sense. It's redundant for Rogues, of course, but exists now for classes like the Beguiler who can eventually attain the same capability Rogues get at 3rd level.

That's only a consequence of Uncanny Dodge simplification. In 3.0, Trap Sense was a part of Uncanny Dodge and thus not separately spelled out (but it was there). In 3.5, Uncanny Dodge was split into three separate abilities, and they named that part of UD Trap Sense (and the Flanking-part Improved Uncanny Dodge), probably because it was the most descriptional name. That necessitied the change of the name "Trap Sense" as an afterthought so it simply became "Epic Trapfinding".

In SRD-rules, Rogue is the only class with Trapfinding, and yet Epic Trapfinding is included along too. I wonder why...?