Results 1 to 30 of 45
-
2009-03-03, 12:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Location
- Here.
- Gender
Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
I'm enjoying 4e D&D a lot, mostly because as a DM I can make and run a game with much more ease than I could with earlier editions (monsters are what I need for the encounter right now; and change stats if the NPC fulfills a different role later in the "film").
I've looked over saga edition, and I'm a fan of Star Wars (or my version of it ;) ), so I'm wondering how easy it would be to... well, compare the two.
obviously they're both built with entirely different design goals (ie: D&D grows characters to epic level; though not as explosively as 3e epic levels were, as 4e can still fit the action on my battle grid). I did hear a rumour that WOTC was trying out design elements of 4e in it, though (like static defenses).
Play style, though:
1) has anyone used SAGA edition for a tabletop game?
2) Is gameplay good with it? Can you tell the stories you want to?
3) Could 4e design principles as we know them work for Star Wars? If a few SW classes were built for 4e (say, strikers, and some versions of Jedi, and Noble as a ranged Leader?), could it work?
I mean, sci-fi would likely need options for ranged combat for most non-Jedi; so simply using 4e classes to sub in would be, well, problematic.
...Any thoughts?Grrr. Arrrgh.
Spoiler: DON'T LOOK! IT'S A TRAP!Spoiler: DON'T DO IT!Spoiler: LAST CHANCE TO LOOK AWAY!!!
Awwwwww, that's just... Well, I did warn you.
-
2009-03-03, 05:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- Bristol, UK
- Gender
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
Here's what someone with experience of both systems said:
Originally Posted by MoogleEmpMog
Although it was still too crunchy and too D20 for our group, after about six sessions we ported the campaign to FATE/SotC and haven't looked back.Wushu Open Reloaded
Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.
-
2009-03-03, 08:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2004
- Location
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
Having played and run 4e and played and run (alot) of Saga I can agree with a lot of the large quote above. However I find Saga easy to run, untrained/trained/focused skills and standardised defenses make is easy to think up DCs and character toughness on the fly.
Saga is also great of for customising characters. The ever expanding numbers of talents and free multiclassing give you a huge range of choice in your class features. Its also very hard to make a truely awful character, there are no CW Samurai in Saga.
I only own PHB, DMG and MM out of 4e and while fun in its own right, as a tactical space control game, playing 1 character feels like playing them all and they don't have enough powers to make them interesting individually. There are no spells anymore in 4e, not as we know them.
In the end, if Saga was retextured 4e, I'd be a very happy chappy.Last edited by Uin; 2009-03-03 at 08:54 AM.
-
2009-03-03, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- Icy Evil Canadia
- Gender
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
Saga Edition is what 4e should have been. It has all the best qualities of both 3.5 and 4e, with none of the weaknesses of either.
-
2009-03-03, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Location
- Georgia, USA
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
The only thing I'll say against MoogleEmpMog's wall of text there is that in my experience with SWSE talents have proven stronger than feats, though in some cases that's only due to their exclusivity.
Current Games:
SpoilerGMing The Lotus Blossoms! [Exalted 3E] (OOC)
Playing Waldaharjaz in The Convergence of Sky [Exalted 3E]
Playing Rivers in Welcome to Thorns [Exalted 3E]
-
2009-03-03, 10:13 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2004
- Location
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
This post has made me think of running a classical D&D adventure with a Noble, a Thief, a Ranger, a Fighter (Noble, Scoundrel, Scout and Soldier respectively). Anyone would have access to magic (force), but the number of different spells (powers) would be based on mental stats and perhaps the noble has more magic related talents.
EDIT: Perhaps Nobles could have all force talents, maybe the more offensively powerful alter tree, and you narrow the selection more and more for Thieves, Rangers and maybe block it of Fighters.Last edited by Uin; 2009-03-03 at 10:21 AM.
-
2009-03-03, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- Bristol, UK
- Gender
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
Have you seen The Gneech's Sword & Sorcery adpatation of SE?
I have to agree with the people who say SE is what 4e should have been. I much prefer SE's modularity to 4e's focus. Anyone can build almost any character they like, provided they have the levels and a notion how to string them together. There aren't even that many dead ends either.Last edited by Kiero; 2009-03-03 at 11:12 AM.
Wushu Open Reloaded
Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.
-
2009-03-03, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
- Gender
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
I got the Revised core rulebook, not the Saga Edition, but i'm a bit puzzled by some of the skills:
Take Craft (capital ships). What would you do as a capital ships crafter? pretend to be Qwi Xux and go bananas and sit and toss a tons of dice, after buying 10k astromech droids, and sit and craft your own capitals? or, simply sit and weld armor plates like some extended universe wookie slave?
The skill system in the Revised Edition, at least, seems... odd. Might be i'm a bit hard on it, since i feel like doing the skills the GURPS way would be better, but i think it look like they didnt think trough what fits in a scifi game in the edition i got. Is Saga Edition better?
-
2009-03-03, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- Icy Evil Canadia
- Gender
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
At first glance, they are both Star Wars RPGs based loosely on d20 rules, so you might think they're the same. However, at first glance, chocolate and poo might look much the same, too.
Hint: SW Saga Edition is the chocolate part of the analogy. Previous star wars d20 RPGs were truly crappy.Last edited by Talya; 2009-03-03 at 03:47 PM.
-
2009-03-03, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
- Gender
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
Let me tell you something.
I have played 4e. And I have played Star Wars Saga Edition. I cannot say that Star Wars is the better game. No, that is not the choice for me to make, as they both have their strengths and weakness. But I can tell you this. It is my personal opinion, and the opinion of my entire gaming group, that Star Wars Saga Edition is the easiest of the two. Its easy to understand, easy to get into, and easy to play.
But the most important thing I can tell you is this: Star Wars Saga Edition is fun.
Because when you see the look of shock in your players eyes, and the grins slowly growing faces as you describe how their two bullet-riddled clone troopers leap out of an exploding cliff-side hangar and grab onto the side of a passing gunship and barely manage to claw their way inside, you know you've got yourself a good game on your hands.
Need I go on?Anemoia: Nostalgia for a time you've never known.
-
2009-03-03, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- Bristol, UK
- Gender
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
Wushu Open Reloaded
Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.
-
2009-03-03, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Location
- Here.
- Gender
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
Heh. The best part is your avatar is this lovely, serene, bikini-clad girl.
You're right about the differences. I can see SE being a better game for players than SWd20 revised has been.
I really like what MoogleEmpMod said (thanks, Kiero).
My thinking is that I like tactical combat. I actually like SE, but running it right would be hard until I could have really simple cards for each ship/droid/stormtrooper: speed, attack, defenses (like that part), damage.
I do think that 4e elements wouldn't work for a SW game, though. SW is all about action scenes, but the characters are often ranged or with multi-roles.
the main issue I see is that Ranged fights work differently than Melee. You can have a Defender engage with backup from the others. However, for SW, only the Jedi really work out front; so we don't really have a Defender unless they're a Jedi, and Jedi can be Strikers as well as Controllers. But where does that leave Techies? And do we need five types of Strikers when they all use Blasters?
**I suppose having a wider array of powers to choose for Jedi (ie: defender/deflect build, mind control build, striker build) could work. Also multiple Classes with Jedi as a power source...
Also, SW is very much Skill Challenges vs. Combat: two different arenas for characters to work in.
I agree some skills are useless, especially craft skills. Class features, maybe, or Feats; like Ritual Caster, but with "designs" in their "design book".
I just think that a Game Night should always have the Players *doing something* rather than waiting for another player to finish "winning". That's why 4e works so well.
In a way, it's kinda like SWd20's ship combat: everyone could roll every round to boost the engines, fire the guns, roll out of the way (defenses boosted, or ignore a hit), etc.Grrr. Arrrgh.
Spoiler: DON'T LOOK! IT'S A TRAP!Spoiler: DON'T DO IT!Spoiler: LAST CHANCE TO LOOK AWAY!!!
Awwwwww, that's just... Well, I did warn you.
-
2009-03-03, 06:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
In Saga Edition, you don't need the whole striker, defender, leader, controller thing. Besides, soldiers can work pretty well up front. The whole four roles thing isn't strictly necessary in all games. For instance, Fudge, a classless game, can work with the whole four rolls thing. To make a tank, high combat skills, heavy armor, high toughness, damage capacity, stamina, whatever attribute or gift correlates in your game, the attribute aren't fixed anyways, etc. But if you have two lightweight people, they can do just fine. Its just being swarmed is more lethal(hitting full defensive stance isn't going to save you like it will a tank). But if your getting swarmed then you screwed something up anyways. Put your back to a wall, fight in a staircase, etc.
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
-
2009-03-03, 07:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- Bristol, UK
- Gender
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
Skill challenges are quite easy to port into Saga Edition, we had some good times with them while we stuck with it.
In the end, it was still too D20 for my group; we ported to a FATE/SotC adaptation and haven't looked back.Wushu Open Reloaded
Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.
-
2009-03-03, 08:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Location
- Georgia, USA
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
This. Also, Saga parties don't... or at least shouldn't... operate the same way a D&D party does. It doesn't fit the SW flavor. You only need a representative of each class if you want all skills trained. I've seen parties primarily composed of Nobles, parties primarily composed of Jedi, parties without either Nobles or Jedi, all sorts of things. All of them were able to progress through the game, they just solved their problems in different ways. Plus, even if you try to confine a Saga class to a single role, that will in no way confine a character to that role... the game is definitely designed to encourage a lot of multiclassing.
Current Games:
SpoilerGMing The Lotus Blossoms! [Exalted 3E] (OOC)
Playing Waldaharjaz in The Convergence of Sky [Exalted 3E]
Playing Rivers in Welcome to Thorns [Exalted 3E]
-
2009-03-03, 09:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
Agreed. Multiclassing is pretty much assumed, and it works well. That said, Saga Edition could have worked just fine as a classless system.
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
-
2009-03-04, 01:17 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Location
- Here.
- Gender
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
I'm reading SE in more depth.
I like it generally, and I really like what I think I understand Force Powers to be like. I want to understand the Space Ship options better, but they look fun. overall, if the GM side was better, it could be *the* sci-fi game for simplicity's sake. Really good elements in there. My understanding of RPGs is that, like in 4e, combat and skills are where decisions are up in the air. Working other areas isn't as important, and may be details I don't need.
I'll have to try this out some time, to be sure.
but, for now, I would change a few things:
1) attack bonus: prefer 1/2 level+modifiers (ability, weapon proficiency, etc.). Keeps everyone of the level on the level, in their own arenas, whatever those may be.
2) racial ability penalties: I don't think they're necessary, compared to bonuses. 4e won me over on that.
3) Classes: I'm on the fence here. I can understand why it'd be a good classless system, actually. Even for Jedi, it makes sense; Jedi class doesn't add anything to the way using the force works, except a suit of skills and bonus feats. I think Bounty Hunter would be more relevant than Scout for a class name, though, if classes are to be had.
4) static HP gain, so it's even (I never roll hp, it's silly).
5) Monster/NPC generation: here it could have used 4e simplicity. As a GM I don't have time to use unnecessary details, and the pre-gen options aren't always great.
6) ac/level bonus to Reflex: swap in should be AC or Dex to level bonus, not AC or Level. If I'm wearing armor or not, my experience doesn't change; whether I can dodge fast enough in plate mail does.
7) More in-combat options for Nobles, like the Warlord in 4e.Grrr. Arrrgh.
Spoiler: DON'T LOOK! IT'S A TRAP!Spoiler: DON'T DO IT!Spoiler: LAST CHANCE TO LOOK AWAY!!!
Awwwwww, that's just... Well, I did warn you.
-
2009-03-04, 04:52 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- Bristol, UK
- Gender
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
1) Remove the class-based BAB and you unbalance the Soldier. There's no reason to play them (or a Jedi, for that matter) over a Scout if the only thing you get is slightly more hit points.
2) Penalties keep attribute inflation down. Also, how will you balance out some of the more outlanding and powerful abilities some species get?
3) An easy fix is to remove the Jedi class, and allow anyone to switch one of their WPs (not Simple) for Lightsaber. Maybe allow a switch of one other starting Feat for Force Sensetivity (though I'd be careful about that). Then make Skill Training open - as in if you spend a Feat on it, you can get any Skill, not just one from your class list. You'd still need to decide what to do about the Bonus Feats, though.
4) The Dawn of Defiance campaign has static hit points; they go Scoundrel and Noble 3, Scout 5, Jedi and Soldier 7.
5) This one is painful.
6) Remove this, and you invalidate Armoured Defense. That's the whole point of it, it lets you choose. Without it, you have to take the bonus from the armour instead of 1/2 your level, regardless of whether or not it's better.
7) Nobles aren't Warlords, though. And they already have some in-combat abilities like them.Wushu Open Reloaded
Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.
-
2009-03-04, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Location
- Here.
- Gender
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
Not strictly true. For 4e you simply find what the soldier is supposed to do, and get them to do it as easily as the rogue does the rogue's job.
The BAB is currently unbalanced: soldiers are limited to "I hit, I miss, I hit" rather than "I hit, and push him 2 squares; now the Jedi is flanking him". Meanwhile everyone else is currently stuck with "ok, I can't hit this guy, so why bother trying?"
2) Penalties keep attribute inflation down. Also, how will you balance out some of the more outlanding and powerful abilities some species get?
If classes are based around particular types of attacks, or at least skill uses, those races will naturally tend to be picked for that. It's why Dwarven Rogues aren't common in 4e. Penalties don't stop someone from being good at something: they force them to be bad at something. So a PC can't be that one rare Wookie Noble, as they'll fail at everything. (3e example: no dwarven sorcerers, despite the cool concept; no half-orc wizards either)
5) This one is painful.
If not: ?
6) Remove this, and you invalidate Armoured Defense. That's the whole point of it, it lets you choose. Without it, you have to take the bonus from the armour instead of 1/2 your level, regardless of whether or not it's better.
7) Nobles aren't Warlords, though. And they already have some in-combat abilities like them.
And while they aren't Warlords, there is something to be said for a Leader/Commander role in SW situations, granting other characters bonuses (actions, saves, bonuses, etc.).
Also: other than Leah and Padme, are there Nobles who aren't simply NPCs? Like, what do they do that's so special? Most of the nobles stand there waiting for a rescue. Those in the action leap to the front and yell orders to the troops or shoot stuff. In the books all sorts of people are nobles, from old soldiers to jedi to whoever. Statistically it doesn't make sense that Palpatine was a Noble *and* Sith Lord, in RAW for the old edition.
Meh, I could go on but I won't :D
There could be a Talent tree, for times when Jedi lead troops or when soldiers do, that let them give bonuses like that. I dunno.Grrr. Arrrgh.
Spoiler: DON'T LOOK! IT'S A TRAP!Spoiler: DON'T DO IT!Spoiler: LAST CHANCE TO LOOK AWAY!!!
Awwwwww, that's just... Well, I did warn you.
-
2009-03-05, 05:07 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- Bristol, UK
- Gender
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
I have to wonder; if you want SE to be like 4e, why not just stick with 4e? Surely it's going to be easier to make some small changes to 4e, than make a sweeping lot of potentially game-breaking changes to SE?
On 1) actual experience didn't have people just saying "I hit" and "I miss", you don't need 4e's overly-complicated sliding and pushing and whatever else to make combat interesting.
On 2) actual experience of people playing doesn't bear this out. The penalties don't mean no one plays them, outside of those concerned solely with optimality.
On 6) you've just made armour the most optimal choice. The whole point of the way it's done in SE is that higher-level characters don't need to wear armour to be safe. Because most of the characters we see don't wear it.
On 7) Nobles do already have Talents that boost their companions. Have you read their Talent trees?
SE is not like 4e through design choices. Personally I much prefer it, because it removes a lot of the annoyingly intrusive combat stuff that assumes you've got a battlemat and minis.
I don't know what you'll achieve besides frustration in basically trying to make SE the game it wasn't intended to be.Wushu Open Reloaded
Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.
-
2009-03-05, 05:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- Helsinki, Finland
- Gender
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
Last edited by Attilargh; 2009-03-05 at 05:14 AM.
-
2009-03-05, 05:17 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Location
- Georgia, USA
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
If you want a better understanding of space combat, you need Starships of the Galaxy. Really, the core book vehicular combat section is just a teaser for Starships, which is next to necessary if you want to have a lot of space combat in your game. Scum and Villainy also has some nice options. If you want ground-based vehicular combat, check out the Clone Wars Campaign Guide.
Current Games:
SpoilerGMing The Lotus Blossoms! [Exalted 3E] (OOC)
Playing Waldaharjaz in The Convergence of Sky [Exalted 3E]
Playing Rivers in Welcome to Thorns [Exalted 3E]
-
2009-03-05, 11:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Location
- Here.
- Gender
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
A very good point, sir, a very good point.
On 1) actual experience didn't have people just saying "I hit" and "I miss", you don't need 4e's overly-complicated sliding and pushing and whatever else to make combat interesting.
AND
SE is not like 4e through design choices. Personally I much prefer it, because it removes a lot of the annoyingly intrusive combat stuff that assumes you've got a battlemat and minis.
I'm in psychology right now, and people learn in different ways: visual learners and auditory learners. I find my players respond very well to visual stimuli, such as the D&D minis and the poster maps that go with that. When we play M&M they respond less well, as there is much less "merchandise" to go with the game to help their visual learning.
That's why I like 4e so much, but frankly I have been trying to get away from the grid maps and more into the mind's-eye style of problem solving. The current adventure has the PCs sneaking into places to steal items rather than fight, meaning they have to lie, flirt, distract, climb, etc. around otherwise normal NPCs. It's a lot of fun.
In fact, I can see SWSE involving that in a big way, so the more I read it the more interested I get.
I have known GMs who really hate the maps and charts, though, as they have a great picture in their minds and can really spatially map the entire battle and what's going on. (I met this one at GenCon 2005 who was like that, who ran this Rakshasa demo for, I think, Goodman Games; fun stuff)
The other hand of this, though, is that I like the orderly nature of the grid combat system. I like how the powers are spelled out on cards and right there for the players. I mean, *I* can get by with the book, but my players are gagging to use the 4e power cards. Otherwise they spend 5 minutes flipping pages before deciding.
On 2) actual experience of people playing doesn't bear this out. The penalties don't mean no one plays them, outside of those concerned solely with optimality.
On 6) you've just made armour the most optimal choice. The whole point of the way it's done in SE is that higher-level characters don't need to wear armour to be safe. Because most of the characters we see don't wear it.On 7) Nobles do already have Talents that boost their companions. Have you read their Talent trees?
I don't know what you'll achieve besides frustration in basically trying to make SE the game it wasn't intended to be.
Seriously, tho: I think they're very similar (having read it some more now). If you took every maneuver a given character can try, and write it out on the card, it'd look similar to the Powers of 4e.
Attack bonus (or persuations skill mod for Nobles' demand surrender, for example) + d20 vs. Defense; effect (damage); range... etc.
I need to read more for this, but I'll try in a few days to have a SWSE PC fight some 4e monsters. I'm doing this between work and school, but I'll see.
If it works, I'll use it as a break for my 4e players when I'm writing up their next module!
(that or continue the M&M game...)Grrr. Arrrgh.
Spoiler: DON'T LOOK! IT'S A TRAP!Spoiler: DON'T DO IT!Spoiler: LAST CHANCE TO LOOK AWAY!!!
Awwwwww, that's just... Well, I did warn you.
-
2009-03-06, 12:25 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Location
- Georgia, USA
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
I'm curious, how many of the Saga books do you have? At the rate talents are being added the game is very quickly transitioning from "obviously room for more talents" to "please god make it stop I can't handle all these options!"
I love the degree of customization Saga talents allow, but I remember one of the things that I enjoyed about Saga over 3.5 D&D when I first got it was the decreased complexity of character generation. That was when I had Core + the KotOR Campaign Guide. Now I've got, well, every book that's been released so far, and while I'm still loving the system, the options are beginning to overwhelm again.Current Games:
SpoilerGMing The Lotus Blossoms! [Exalted 3E] (OOC)
Playing Waldaharjaz in The Convergence of Sky [Exalted 3E]
Playing Rivers in Welcome to Thorns [Exalted 3E]
-
2009-03-06, 05:13 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- Bristol, UK
- Gender
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
I'm just picking out this point because it's most pertinent. If you want to get away from what you've been doing before, how about not trying to make SE like 4e in the first place? This might be a revolutionary idea, but how about just playing SE as it is, and then making a judgement about what you might change?
It does still require physical representation of where people are and such in combat (we used a whiteboard), but it's much less focused on minis than 4e is. And by adding in Skill Challenges, you've immediately got all the non-combat interesting mechanics you need.Wushu Open Reloaded
Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.
-
2009-03-06, 08:17 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
For 1) and 7)....
1) I have been looking to use a 1/2 level bonus for all classes, but add a flat +2 bonus to the soldier (and Jedi; I'm looking to run a fantasy version that replaces the Jedi). This is gained at first level; those that multiclass into soldier gain a +1 bonus (thus simulating the "midway point"). Treat AC similarly (I may have to make defenses at 12 or 13 base to compensate since the game assumes a low AC to begin with and then compensates). This gives the "combat only" classes a significant but not overwhelming boost.
7) Isn't there some sort of fencer talent tree in the Knights of the Old Republic Sourcebook?
I'm also using a nice mix of 4th ed and saga skills (Jump, climb. etc are utterly redundant and can be folded; intiative, ride, craft are not).
Oh, and Keiro- you and Gneech have just saved me a LOT of effort.
-
2009-03-06, 08:28 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- Bristol, UK
- Gender
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
I'm not one to ask about that sort of thing. Sounds like you're effectively giving the Soldier their full BAB difference up-front.
Yep, Noble Fencing. Useful for Nobles and Jedi/Nobles who don't want to sink lots of resources into melee combat, but don't want to completely suck at it either.
I really don't know why they didn't merge Climb, Jump and Swim into one Athletics right at the start. And Ride could do with being rolled into either Athletics or Survival.
I just pointed the way. Gneech did all the work.Wushu Open Reloaded
Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.
-
2009-03-06, 09:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
- Gender
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
Personally, I'm not really sure what the point of eliminating ability score penalties is. From a logical perspective, they make far more sense than just having bonuses. And while they are not crucial in order to create variation among races, but they are certainly a potent tool in that respect, and variation, or at least potential for variation, is undeniably diminished without them.
For instance, humans having two bonuses in 4e which can be assigned at will and the other races having two bonuses on specific ability scores... what is the difference between a given human and a representative from a specific member of each of the other races, exactly? I mean, in terms of their ability scores, and assuming that they made the same points buy decisions? The race becomes reduced to little more than the special ability the character gets, which is a bit of a shame IMHO.
-
2009-03-06, 09:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
I like having Climb and Swim separate, although Jump is absurd. That should probably just be a strength check or something, or it could be rolled into something else where it fits, which is hard to do if you keep Climb and Swim separate. That said, the 3.5 skill system could use some merging. Use rope. Seriously. Tie it into survival, sailing, whatever, just don't have it as its own skill. I would let you use Climb for rope use(at a penalty), as climbers need to know knots.
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
-
2009-03-06, 12:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
- Location
- Washington, DC
- Gender
Re: Star Wars Saga Edition vs. 4e D&D
I've played both, DM'd both, and have enjoyed both. They are very, very different games, and I don't think they can be combined without re-writing every class.
4E is essentially the world's greatest board game - Heroclix on steroids. Game balance is easy. Creating a character is easy. Setting up balanced and enjoyable encounters is easy. People get bogged down in rules less, because it's hard to combine anything. But that also makes things somewhat boring in the long run. Virtually all of the class abilities, feats, and magic items are essentially X[W] damage + minor effect + minor bonus, or + minor bonus to ally(s) or + minor bonus when you do Whatever. There is very little fluff connected to any class ability, and the fluff that's there is cartoonish, so you pretty much have to come up with it on your own or do without. If I was going to play a game at a convention or as a pick up game at the local gaming store, this would be my choice.
SWSE is the pinnacle of d20. I agree with Talya in that SWSE is what 4e should have been. You can customize your character to do almost anything. Some class abilities and Force Powers are of the holy freaking cow that's awesome variety, though there are tons of mundane bonuses sitting around if that's what you want to do. It requires a much higher level of game mastery, much more time to prepare for, and a seasoned DM to run the show, and as a party's power level can vary drastically by level. If I was going to play a long term campaign, this would be my choice.
The core mechanics for 4E are far better IMO. But they did a mediocre job of writing the classes and feats. So I'm hoping that when 5th edition comes out (2012?) they combine the two. My dream:
- Have a liberal OGL, so that independent publishers can add their creativity to the mix. Remember that if every other company is publishing material that requires your core product, they're not publishing material that would compete with your core product.
- Make class abilities more unique, interesting, and powerful.
- Scale back to 20 levels to avoid the need for 100 class abilities, (to support #2).
- Kill paragon paths and bring back prestige classes. Again, this supports point #2, and allows for greater customization without the crazyness of 3.X multi-classing.
Of course when they do this I expect WotC to botch the marketing again, split their customer base, and lay off another 100 employees. No matter how great their ideas may be, they've really sucked at the nuts and bolts of running a business over the past few years.