Alternate Healing and Gritty Realism

[Greengiant]

I'm trying to make my world as gritty realistic as possible. Lowering the WBL, making natural healing tough, and generally making things more dangerous, and I just thought of implementing a new thing. My idea is to take healing and make it much more costly; healing knits flesh and bone, regrows limbs, brings people back to life, and whatnot, but, as a side effect, and partially a spell component, it drains your life force. Each point of damage healed adds a point of non-lethal damage. What do you think?

Also, can anyone suggest any other variants, or homebrews for added realism, or nerfed spellcasting, because that's the thing that needs it most.

I mostly use core books.

[theMycon]

Quick question-
Deals a point of nonlethal to the caster or the healee?
Does healing nonlethal cause nonlethal? Cause half the nonlethal?

To the healee just 1.5's the amount of healing needed (if nonlethal doesn't drain more nonlethal, or twice the amount if it drains at half speed), since nonlethal heals double with spells. It also makes healing in battle.. different. It means you won't die when you konk out, but you'd be out of the fight just as fast. Which I kind of like. I can't call it realistic, but it makes damage more threatening without making healing useless. Especially if you give nonlethal a faster natural healing (call it "still feeling like your guts are on the floor." or "Psychosomatic damage.").

If you mean "it drains the caster as much as it heals", then you're going to run into mechanical issues everywhere, since the Cleric only has a middling HP. It would make any healing spells... pretty much pointless. Everyone'd just get rods of cure light/lesser vigor, and skirt the issue.

[Sergeantbrother]

Well, my gaming group uses Hit Points equal to the character's Constitution with a bonus of +1 for 1d6 HD classes, +2 for 1d8 HD classes, +3 for 1d10 HD classes, and +4 for 1d12 HD classes. For a cleric with a Constitution of 15 will have 17 Hit Points and this number never increases. To help counter this, we have AC increase at the same rate of base attack bonus, so a 7th level fighter has a +7 AC bonus. Also, armor is all damage reduction instead of AC bonus.

Of course, this requires a bit of tweaking across the board, but this system with the tweaks has worked pretty well for us over the years. If you want more information on the specifics, let me know.

Regarding healing spells, the spells only heal 1 HP per level of the spell. A 0 level healing spell stops bleeding but heals no damage.

Obviously, this system can be quite lethal. We play in a very low magic world where most of the player's enemies are humans or something close to it and magic users are exceptionally rare.

[Xuincherguixe]

I would think that you might want to go with something other than D&D. It comes with a lot of baggage. There is a natural assumption that not only will you die, but that resurrection is cheap in order to handle the fact that you will die so easily.

And by cheap what I mean, little consequences, and easy. It's actually pretty expensive in terms of money. The reason why those who don't have the luxury of being players don't get brought back to life? Economics. They're just poor. That can be a real morals dissonance.

As to which dark and gruesome game to go with? I'm not an expert, I'll let someone else offer that advice.

[Satyr]

Have a look at Serpents and Sewers. Yes, I know it is less favorable to promote and praise the things one has written himself, but the homebrew actually works for the most parts, and include everything the OP mentioned his group is interested in.

[Roderick_BR]

Not bad. Healing pretty much trades lethal for non-lethal then? Would keep someone from fighting all day long, since he needs time to rest (considering that magic healing doesn't heal non-lethal. Ah, better make it 1/2 the damage, or a character with 10 HP, 10 points of damage, and 1 non-lethal, healed 10 HP, will have 11 non-lethal, and continue unconcious.

I don't think that natural healing need to be "nerfed", though, as it's already kinda slow.

[Tiki Snakes]

If you want Gritty Realism and for magic healing to not be too...good, well. what about implimenting an 'injury' system of some kind? As in, if you take a certain amount of damage you may have broken something, seriously smushed something, or had something chopped clean off.

Then have magical healing just heal flesh and hitpoints, not regrow anything, not fusing bones back together. (With or without the nonlethal thing added in as well.)

It'd really make combat feel significantly dangerous, If you're risking things falling off or being basically made useless for several in-game months. Probably far too gritty for most players (Myself included probably), but it sounds like your group is already pretty hardcore. :)

(Edit- I'd definately leave natural healing as it is, myself. It's glacial in 3.5 and so on, compared to even inept magical healing, let alone with anything resembling the suggestion above in place!)

[Greengiant]

Quick question-
Deals a point of nonlethal to the caster or the healee?
Does healing nonlethal cause nonlethal? Cause half the nonlethal?

To the healee just 1.5's the amount of healing needed (if nonlethal doesn't drain more nonlethal, or twice the amount if it drains at half speed), since nonlethal heals double with spells. It also makes healing in battle.. different. It means you won't die when you konk out, but you'd be out of the fight just as fast. Which I kind of like. I can't call it realistic, but it makes damage more threatening without making healing useless. Especially if you give nonlethal a faster natural healing (call it "still feeling like your guts are on the floor." or "Psychosomatic damage.").

If you mean "it drains the caster as much as it heals", then you're going to run into mechanical issues everywhere, since the Cleric only has a middling HP. It would make any healing spells... pretty much pointless. Everyone'd just get rods of cure light/lesser vigor, and skirt the issue.

Non-lethal heals 50% faster when it's acquired from being healed. And the healee is the one receiving it, not the healer. Non-lethal damage cannot be healed any way but naturally.

If you want Gritty Realism and for magic healing to not be too...good, well. what about implimenting an 'injury' system of some kind? As in, if you take a certain amount of damage you may have broken something, seriously smushed something, or had something chopped clean off.

Then have magical healing just heal flesh and hitpoints, not regrow anything, not fusing bones back together. (With or without the nonlethal thing added in as well.)

It'd really make combat feel significantly dangerous, If you're risking things falling off or being basically made useless for several in-game months. Probably far too gritty for most players (Myself included probably), but it sounds like your group is already pretty hardcore. :)

(Edit- I'd definately leave natural healing as it is, myself. It's glacial in 3.5 and so on, compared to even inept magical healing, let alone with anything resembling the suggestion above in place!)

I have implemented injury in the game, but magic can still heal it. When you are the victim of a critical strike, I roll a d100 for a crit chart I have to see where it hits, and the effects I determine myself. One of my characters has already lost a finger, has broken his clavicle (has since been healed), and has a disfiguring scar accross his nose and mouth area.

Also, a heal check or spellcraft check, (whichever is higher) is used to determine the effectiveness of the heal. A really low check might result in some permanent damage, while as a middling result will leave a scar. A high result or a sort of "healing ritual" are needed to replace limbs or whatnot.

Not bad. Healing pretty much trades lethal for non-lethal then? Would keep someone from fighting all day long, since he needs time to rest (considering that magic healing doesn't heal non-lethal. Ah, better make it 1/2 the damage, or a character with 10 HP, 10 points of damage, and 1 non-lethal, healed 10 HP, will have 11 non-lethal, and continue unconcious.

I don't think that natural healing need to be "nerfed", though, as it's already kinda slow.

That is kind of the point, if he spends more time unconcious because the healing was more intense, all the better. I think I might devise a formula for how much non-lethal damage is taken depending on the result of the heal check associated. Sometimes only 1/2 non-lethal is taken, or 3/4. This would encourage healers to have knowledge of healing I think. Right now, a cleric healer doesn't really need knowledge of healing or ranks in heal to help him heal, and that's a problem in my eyes.

Have a look at Serpents and Sewers. Yes, I know it is less favorable to promote and praise the things one has written himself, but the homebrew actually works for the most parts, and include everything the OP mentioned his group is interested in.

This is amazing, this has everything I want. Thanks so much! And from what I've seen of it, it looks like you did it well, good stuff.

[Fawsto]

Those Heroic Paths...


Have you ever played Midnight, Satyr?


Now, you've placed a lot of efort on those houserules. When I get more time, I'll go trought the magic system that I had no time to read.

[Satyr]

This is amazing, this has everything I want. Thanks so much! And from what I've seen of it, it looks like you did it well, good stuff.

I am actually quite proud of it, but that is a collective work, not mine alone (and in some parts most of the work was finding interesting houserules of other people and mercilessly stealing them). But it works and was thoroughly playtested.

Those Heroic Paths...


Have you ever played Midnight, Satyr?

I am still playing it from time to time; apart from Dark Sun, Midnight is my favorite D&D background and certainly one of the better settings around, perhaps the best setting published for D20. However, we are not using the origial rules for the setting anymore but run it with the unisystem rules (from All Flesh Must Be Eaten), as it works better with grittier settings than standard D&D and offers more character options. The Heroic Paths are still an idea that is too good to not use it. The way I see the game, more character layers are a good thing as long as they don't make the game to complicated.

[Tiki Snakes]

Incidentally, though the specific way your running the game is a wee bit too gritty for me, I would be genuinely interested in getting a look at this d100 injury / hit location chart, if you happened to have a digital version of it lying around to hand?

It's the kind of thing I'm not exactly patient enough to do particularly well myself, but am kind of facinated by.

[Greengiant]

Incidentally, though the specific way your running the game is a wee bit too gritty for me, I would be genuinely interested in getting a look at this d100 injury / hit location chart, if you happened to have a digital version of it lying around to hand?

It's the kind of thing I'm not exactly patient enough to do particularly well myself, but am kind of facinated by.

Sorry, I have it on my computer at home, the one without internet . I downloaded it a while back from a DM resource site, and I've used it ever since. It's in PDF format. Sorry I can't be of more help.

[horseboy]

As to which dark and gruesome game to go with? I'm not an expert, I'll let someone else offer that advice.

Harn, Rolemaster, WFRP, heck you could probably lift the wound rules from Earthdawn with little trouble for "some" grit and not have to worry about waiting 3d10 months x racial recovery modifier for your shattered tibia to heal.

[Zergrusheddie]

You could use the much older critical hit rules. You would roll a d100 on the table and see what you did. Most minor stuff was like double damage or bleed over a round or two. The nastier ones were like remove a limb, lose an eye, or auto-death. Using that system, my father had to actually strap his legless fighter to his armless fighter.

The biggest problem that you run into is that mooks will kill your players much easier. If a Goblin attacks a level 20 fighter and gets a critical hit now, he probably takes about 10 damage at the most. With the Critical Table System, if the Goblin gets a critical hit, that level 20 Fighter could lose an arm, damage a lung (can no longer run), or flat-out die.

[Eldariel]

The biggest problem that you run into is that mooks will kill your players much easier. If a Goblin attacks a level 20 fighter and gets a critical hit now, he probably takes about 10 damage at the most. With the Critical Table System, if the Goblin gets a critical hit, that level 20 Fighter could lose an arm, damage a lung (can no longer run), or flat-out die.

Bleh, the chances of a Gob critting a level 20 Fighter are something like 0.25% (or about 1 in 400) due to critical confirmation roll (vs. level 20 Fighter's AC) and after that, you need to roll bad to get a really lethal result so it isn't much more than 1 in 1000 for the Fighter to die, not much more than the chance of triple 20 instant death. And that's assuming the Fighter doesn't have miss chance, fortifications (level 20 Fighter has fortifications, just btw) or such. I don't think it's that much of a problem, and it makes combat much more interesting.

[Hat-Trick]

It's been said, but Injury tables is a great way to make games realistic. I play HEROES, where you roll to hit and location. Head shots and vitals are lethal, hands/legs/feet, not so much, but it hinders your opponent. Fighters are useless at high level? The enemy has no limbs left, that ain't useless.

[Kol Korran]

i haven't read all the previous posts, so i apologize if i repeat anything.

the "6 elements campaign" http://www.the6elements.com/introduction/ used a house rule which is similar to what you suggest- everytime magical healing was used (including potions, special salves, and so on), the character rolled a fort save. if it failed, it also suffered the same amount of nonlethal damage, if it succeeded it suffered only half of that. the fluff was that the healed tissues appeared white at first, so fighters were crisscrossed with various fading white scars. you can look at the campaign for the impact, but to summarize:

- characters who "pushed it" fell in battles due to unconciousness (at some point it was fixed, by allowing a will save each round to continue fighting while your nonlethal damage is more than your HP)

- the adventuring pace became much slower, as characters stopped to rest after every normal battle and there were also serious resting periods (days- a week or two) between major adventures. you'll need to prepare for that, and have your players like that pace if you're going to implement any serious limitations or implications to healing.

- suddenly players devised tactics and strategies for even simple fights, wanting to minimize injuries. this could be a blessing, or a pain if overdone. keep the characters on a time pressure whenever possible.

- one of the characters (a minotaur chain fighter) had the ability to heal without nonlethal damage. this was a HUGE boon for him and presented a gift from the gods. if you're going to introduce something similar make it grand and importent, it's a serious advantage.

-at one point the heal skill was used to speed up natural healing a bit (i don't remember the rules). the healer (one with a heal skill, not just magical healing) beacme very importent, and actually tended to wounded characters, which added to the realism.

- various herbal medicine and ointments were also used as mundande items to speed up natural healing. it was a nice touch that again- added realism.

all in all- simple rules, immediate implications t orealism without complicating thins too much. hope this helped,
Kol.

[Zergrusheddie]

It's been said, but Injury tables is a great way to make games realistic. I play HEROES, where you roll to hit and location. Head shots and vitals are lethal, hands/legs/feet, not so much, but it hinders your opponent. Fighters are useless at high level? The enemy has no limbs left, that ain't useless.

Yeah, playing with Injury Tables is really fun but it makes Fighters be extremely careful because even a much lower CR Monster can get a critical hit. It makes things interesting because suddenly TWF Rangers with Keen Kukris are now as powerful as THF Power Attackers. 30% chance with each hit to possibly make the opponents limbs drop off gets disgustingly powerful fast; add in Whirlwind or some other way of hitting multiple people and you basically have a fight scene from Kill Bill!