Domains on a non-cleric divine char?

[MustacheFart]

Hey all,

I have a simple question. Is there a way to get a domain as a divine spellcaster without being a cleric? Ex. is there a way to get a domain(its spells added to your spell list or whatever) as a Paladin?

I know you can get that feat, Arcane Disciple but that adds a domain's spells to an Arcane Casters spell list (wiz/sorc. can grab a domain). What about a divine class that doesn't normally get a domain? Any feats to make that possible?

Also what about a feat to add an arcane spell to a Divine Spellcaster's spell list?

[Tempest Fennac]

One advantage I found to the Prestigious Paladin in my thread about those classes, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...terClasses.htm , is that it grants Domains. I know it's not quite what you want, but it could help.

[Eldariel]

Some prestige classes that grant domains are open to non-Clerics too. Contemplative is the simpliest example.

[jcsw]

Yes. See complete divine for more info, most especially the contemplative prestige class.

EDIT: Argh. Ninjas. Anyways, another way is to go sovereign speaker in Faiths of Eberron. Plus there are a few in complete champion (But they give only specific domains)

[Starshade]

In Eberron a Adept can choose a domain(and if taking Cleric later/before, need to use that domain as one of the Cleric's domains, to avoid exploitation of the class ).
I'm not shure if its that great a idea, but the Eberron Knightly Training feat allow a paladin to choose a second class, who then becomes allowed to level in, without loosing the ability to advance as paladin.

Not quite shure why would would want to, but i think its possible, if the DM allows you to use the Adepts domain with the Paladin's spellcasting with one level of Adept, with Knightly Training feat, or, possible start the PC as a Adept, then choose Paladin as class on lvl2.

[Paramour Pink]

There's an item called Domain Draught in Magic Item Compendium. They work, but I can't remember if it's only for clerics...

[Keld Denar]

Ordained Champion is a pretty Pally-friendly PrC that grants the War domain. Kinda dumb though, since the main advantage of the War domain is the free Weapon Focus in your deities favored weapon, yet entry requirements for OC require Weapon Focus.

That, and War domain doesn't really add much to the Paladin spell list, given that the Pally list caps at 4th level spells...

[MustacheFart]

One advantage I found to the Prestigious Paladin in my thread about those classes, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...terClasses.htm , is that it grants Domains. I know it's not quite what you want, but it could help.

How does the Prestigious Paladin grant domains? I looked it over but I didn't see where it says it gives domains. Unless you are talking...like...going into cleric first and then into Prestigious Paladin.

-------------------------


Well, the whole reason I asked is, I am looking for a way to pick up Wraithstrike. I was made aware that the Spell Domain grants Any Spell which could be used to cast it (don't have my book so I can't really check atm).

I could take a few levels of wizard/sorcerer but getting the spell as a divine spell would be way more beneficial for 2 reasons. First, I wouldn't have to deal with ASF at all. And second, it would open up the possibility for me to Persist it via Divine Metamagic. To do the equivalent with an arcane version I'd have to be able to cast 7th level arcane spells and that just ain't going to happen.

Right now, I'm playing a Pally 5/Hellreaver 1//Hound Archon (Monster class, I'm testing it gestalt for the DM) that will eventually be Pally 5/Hellreaver 10/Knight of the Chalice 5//Hound Archon 11/*something*4-9. My guy is a TWF that is going to be utilizing as many attacks as possible. Eventually, at level 16 I am looking at: 4(BAB) + 2(Slams via Hound Archon) + 1(Bite via Hound Archon) + 1(Snap kick) + 1(Haste) + 3(TWF->GTWF) = 12 Attacks.

I'd like to be able to make them all hit. The DM is doing a really great job of making each encounter still challenging and given the setting we are in, I don't think using Wraithstrike is going to be too cheap.

[monty]

If you can wait until level 11, Contemplative is easiest. One level gets you any single domain you have access to (and immunity to disease, but you already have that).

[Keld Denar]

Your character is heavily Cha based, so you could pick it and some other stuff up through the class Suel Arcanamach. SA4/AbjChamp5 would fit in fine after you finish your Archon progression. SA has a 10% reduction in ASF, which combined with a Mithril Twilight Thistledown suit of full plate should give you 0% ASF. Otherwise, replace 1 level of AbChamp with 1 level of Spellsword for another free 10% reducer.

Granted, you wouldn't get wraithstrike until level 14 (you need 3 levels of SA after your 11 levels of Archon) unless you delay some of your Hellreaver stuff a bit and get into SA asap (you could after ECL6 and have Wraithstrike by ECL9). Regardless, the soonest you could get Wraithstrike via Anyspell with paladin casting would be 14, since, assuming you don't lose any CLs, would be the earliest you get 4th level Paladin spells to power your Wraithstrike.

Another thing, quick about your build, I'd recommend swapping out your 5 Knight of the Chalice levels with Ordained Champion. The loss of 2 spell levels won't be noticed much, and OC is awesome for getting bonus smites and some other neat features. Plus OC's Channel Spell + Suel Arcanamach's arcane spells would be pretty nasty.

Oh, and another thing I just throught of. SA gives you arcane spells, which allows you to pick up Arcane Strike which synergizes really well with having lots of attacks.

[Starbuck_II]

There's an item called Domain Draught in Magic Item Compendium. They work, but I can't remember if it's only for clerics...

Actually, they aren't class specific, but they are limited time (plus 1 use each).

[MustacheFart]

Your character is heavily Cha based, so you could pick it and some other stuff up through the class Suel Arcanamach. SA4/AbjChamp5 would fit in fine after you finish your Archon progression. SA has a 10% reduction in ASF, which combined with a Mithril Twilight Thistledown suit of full plate should give you 0% ASF. Otherwise, replace 1 level of AbChamp with 1 level of Spellsword for another free 10% reducer.

Granted, you wouldn't get wraithstrike until level 14 (you need 3 levels of SA after your 11 levels of Archon) unless you delay some of your Hellreaver stuff a bit and get into SA asap (you could after ECL6 and have Wraithstrike by ECL9). Regardless, the soonest you could get Wraithstrike via Anyspell with paladin casting would be 14, since, assuming you don't lose any CLs, would be the earliest you get 4th level Paladin spells to power your Wraithstrike.

Another thing, quick about your build, I'd recommend swapping out your 5 Knight of the Chalice levels with Ordained Champion. The loss of 2 spell levels won't be noticed much, and OC is awesome for getting bonus smites and some other neat features. Plus OC's Channel Spell + Suel Arcanamach's arcane spells would be pretty nasty.

Oh, and another thing I just throught of. SA gives you arcane spells, which allows you to pick up Arcane Strike which synergizes really well with having lots of attacks.

Well, one problem with your suggestion. I thought you couldn't take PrCs on gestalt side when taking PrCs on main side.

I'm fine with dropping Knight of the Chalice, I just threw it in there to complete the idea of the character.

I'm also thinking about taking the multi attack feats as a Hound Archon has a bite and 2 slams(meets prereq of 3 natural weapons) for even more attacks in a round.

Also doesn't using Arcane Strike require a swift action? Currently, I've been using my Swifts for Hellreaver's *something*(forget the name) strike. Of course that only grants a bonus to attack and damage for the first shot so, I guess Arcane Strike would be a much better use.

[Keld Denar]

Eh, all of the gestalt rules are optional. Its encouraged, but as a character with very limited spellcasting capabilities, it wouldn't be horribly over powered. You could swap those levels back to regular paladin and not loose too much. This would allow you to take levels in Suel Arcanamach.

Arcane Strike is a free action. A real free action, not a CWarrior free action, since Arcane Strike appears in Complete Arcane along with the newish rules for Swift and Immediate actions.

Divine Might is also a free action. Since you probably won't be DMM: Persisting much without Wraithstrike as a divine spell (via Anyspell), Divine Might would give you something else to do with those turn attempts. Divine Might literally lets you hit people with your Cha modifier so hard they are stricken with your awesomeness. Synergizes well with lots of natural weapon and TWF attacks. You can Arcane Strike and Divine Might in the same round for a hefty bonus to your smititude.

It should also be noted that you can't use natural weapons if that limb is being employed to wield a weapon. A Hound Archon would lose his slam attacks while TWFing with swords or similar. You could TWF with like...Boot Blades or Braid Blades or a Weighted Cloak, or such, most of which I believe are in Complete Scoundrel or Arms and Equipment guide.

Multiattack is either ok, or good, depending on your level. At low levels, its really good, since +3 for 1 feat is much better than say...the +1 you get from Weapon Focus. Later in life though, you're natural weapons will attack with the same bonus as your 2ndary iterative attacks. Unless you are PAing for a lot (which I don't forsee given that you are TWFing), your 2ndary iterative attack should pretty much autohit, which means your natural weapon attacks would do the same.

[MustacheFart]

Divine Might is also a free action. Since you probably won't be DMM: Persisting much without Wraithstrike as a divine spell (via Anyspell), Divine Might would give you something else to do with those turn attempts. Divine Might literally lets you hit people with your Cha modifier so hard they are stricken with your awesomeness. Synergizes well with lots of natural weapon and TWF attacks. You can Arcane Strike and Divine Might in the same round for a hefty bonus to your smititude.

Ahh, yes, I already have Divine Might and have been using it regularly. Correct me if I am wrong but it just lets you add you Cha to damage right?

It should also be noted that you can't use natural weapons if that limb is being employed to wield a weapon. A Hound Archon would lose his slam attacks while TWFing with swords or similar. You could TWF with like...Boot Blades or Braid Blades or a Weighted Cloak, or such, most of which I believe are in Complete Scoundrel or Arms and Equipment guide.

I see. Well, utilizing Braid Blades or Boot Blades or even a Weighted Cloak does not seem very paladin like; especially, in a demon/evil outsider infested campaign where I am pretty much expected to play the "stick up the butt" pally. However, what if I wore a couple of spiked gauntlets and punched? That would get me my TWF and still allow for my slams correct?

Multiattack is either ok, or good, depending on your level. At low levels, its really good, since +3 for 1 feat is much better than say...the +1 you get from Weapon Focus. Later in life though, you're natural weapons will attack with the same bonus as your 2ndary iterative attacks. Unless you are PAing for a lot (which I don't forsee given that you are TWFing), your 2ndary iterative attack should pretty much autohit, which means your natural weapon attacks would do the same.

Not to be a total DnD nub but could you explain this a little more. What do you mean exactly by 2ndary iterative attacks? Also I was told that my TWF penalties apply to my natural weapons as well, like specifically, my bite. This didn't make much sense to me as it's involving a totally separate appendage/part of the body.

[Keld Denar]

You are correct about Divine Might.

I think Complete Scoundrel has some kind of Elbow Blade. This would visualize out as striking out with a powerful punch followed by a subtle twist of your wrist and elbows bringing those blades into play. It may be a bit more feral than you are looking for, but then again, you are playing a holy anthropomophic dog man...there is some kettle-pot interference going on if you think that's so wrong. Look through CScoundrel and see if one of those alternative weapon slots fits your vision.

And concerning multiple attacks. Lets assume a BAB of 11 for simplicity's sake.

Ok, you declare that you are making a full attack with your TWFing feats.
With your 2 weapons and natural attacks, that attack would look like:

MH +9/+4/-1
OH +9/+4/-1
+4/+4/+4 Slam/Slam/Bite

Notice how your 2ndary iterative attack is +4, and your natural attacks are all at +4? That is because they suffer a -2 penalty for TWF and a -5 penalty for being secondary natural attacks from your BAB of 11, similar to how your 2nd iterative attack suffers a -2 penalty from TWF, and a -5 penalty for being your 2nd iterative attack from BAB 11. If you had Multiattack, you'd get this:

MH +9/+4/-1
OH +9/+4/-1
+7/+7/+7 Slam/Slam/Bite

Now you see that your natural attacks got a slight boost from Multiattack? Its decent, but watch this: Assume a +15 total bonus from Str, Arcane Strike, and buffs.

MH +24/+19/+14
OH +24/+19/+14
+19/+19/+19 Slam/Slam/Bite

vs

MH +24/+19/+14
OH +24/+19/+14
+22/+22/+22 Slam/Slam/Bite

with Multiattack. The difference between +19 and +22 isn't as large at that level. Since you aren't taking any other penalties (like from Power Attack), +19 is plenty good enough to hit a lot of stuff.

Oh, and +15 at level 11 is a pretty conservative estimate of your non-BAB attack bonus. You should have somewhere in the +20 range in most battles, all things considered, especially considering your Hound Archon stat bonuses!

[MustacheFart]

You are correct about Divine Might.

I think Complete Scoundrel has some kind of Elbow Blade. This would visualize out as striking out with a powerful punch followed by a subtle twist of your wrist and elbows bringing those blades into play. It may be a bit more feral than you are looking for, but then again, you are playing a holy anthropomophic dog man...there is some kettle-pot interference going on if you think that's so wrong. Look through CScoundrel and see if one of those alternative weapon slots fits your vision.

And concerning multiple attacks. Lets assume a BAB of 11 for simplicity's sake.

Ok, you declare that you are making a full attack with your TWFing feats.
With your 2 weapons and natural attacks, that attack would look like:

MH +9/+4/-1
OH +9/+4/-1
+4/+4/+4 Slam/Slam/Bite

Notice how your 2ndary iterative attack is +4, and your natural attacks are all at +4? That is because they suffer a -2 penalty for TWF and a -5 penalty for being secondary natural attacks from your BAB of 11, similar to how your 2nd iterative attack suffers a -2 penalty from TWF, and a -5 penalty for being your 2nd iterative attack from BAB 11. If you had Multiattack, you'd get this:

MH +9/+4/-1
OH +9/+4/-1
+7/+7/+7 Slam/Slam/Bite

Now you see that your natural attacks got a slight boost from Multiattack? Its decent, but watch this: Assume a +15 total bonus from Str, Arcane Strike, and buffs.

MH +24/+19/+14
OH +24/+19/+14
+19/+19/+19 Slam/Slam/Bite

vs

MH +24/+19/+14
OH +24/+19/+14
+22/+22/+22 Slam/Slam/Bite

with Multiattack. The difference between +19 and +22 isn't as large at that level. Since you aren't taking any other penalties (like from Power Attack), +19 is plenty good enough to hit a lot of stuff.

Oh, and +15 at level 11 is a pretty conservative estimate of your non-BAB attack bonus. You should have somewhere in the +20 range in most battles, all things considered, especially considering your Hound Archon stat bonuses!

Ahh, I get it. Thanks for explaining it. As to the elbow blade, that actually sounds pretty badass.

I thought about the whole me playing a "holy anthropomorphic dog man" as you called it back before I made my last post. Despite that though, I just didn't see a boot blade or something too sneaky fitting the character... I mean he's a holy dog lol. An elbow blade though, if it's what I'm envisioning, doesn't seem too sneaky. I'm also a hellreaver, who going by their description, has given up all passive tactics (ie. diplomacy) and decided to take action! Dispatching my enemy (aka demons, aka evil outsiders) as quick as possible with whatever I can (ie. elbow blades) does fit up his alley.

I have a couple questions though. You said by level 11 I should have somewhere in the +20 range for non-BAB attack bonus all things considered. Well, I know Hound Archon's get some stat bonuses as you mentioned but where should the rest come from? How would I achieve this "+20s range"? It seems a little high to me but maybe its not.

We built our characters using a 32-point buy. With the required dex for TWFing and needing a high Cha how could I arrange my stats to achieve something like you mentioned? It seems like I have too much MAD.

Right now I have:
16 Str
13 Dex (+2 item to get it to 15 for TWF)
12 Con (I'd like more but out of stat points)
8 Int (Hound Archon gives me enough Skill points every so often anyway)
8 Wis (Figured by time I could cast 4th level spells I'd have a +6 from item*)
18 Cha (17 + 1 at level 4)

*We got a guy in the party making Belts of Magnificance so it's expected that everyone will have one eventually.

The reason I have the high strength was...well...I figured if I could get access to Wraithstrike, I could Power Attack for even more damage.

I see what you mean about Multi-Attack not making that much of a difference but I was figuring in working towards Improved Multi-Attack to get even more attacks. I guess their are better feat choices.

[Dacia Brabant]

Ordained Champion is a pretty Pally-friendly PrC that grants the War domain. Kinda dumb though, since the main advantage of the War domain is the free Weapon Focus in your deities favored weapon, yet entry requirements for OC require Weapon Focus.

That, and War domain doesn't really add much to the Paladin spell list, given that the Pally list caps at 4th level spells...

Well you could always trade the War domain for the War Devotion feat; while not as useful as say Law Devotion it could be pretty decent in a Combat Expertise build. (Not a lot of Paladins go that route though, Int being a traditional dump stat.) Alternatively it could get you into Warpriest, a bad choice for a Cleric but not so bad for a Paladin.

13 Dex (+2 item to get it to 15 for TWF)

Don't you need to have the stat naturally at the proper score to qualify for a feat with an ability requirement? Also you should be getting +4 Str, +2 Con, +2 Wis and +2 Cha from Hound Archon, which should allow you to put a few of those points into Dex if you want.

I do applaud you for going TWF with Divine Might though, I've been wanting to try that for a while--that and Combat Reflexes+Divine Might.

[paigeoliver]

You can qualify for a feat with an item, you just lose the ability to use the feat if you don't have the item equipped.

I am the DM to this particular game, and I am sticking firm to "Not taking two prestige classes at once and "take the whole prestige class once you start it". These are very powerful characters, and Mustache's is going to be the most powerful one in the longterm simply because he will be built to go against the main enemies, the other characters are not really.

Also, don't hold your breath on wraithstrike, as that might be a little bit TOO much once you count all those gazillion attacks that you could then power attack away your whole bab and still hit with.

[MustacheFart]

You can qualify for a feat with an item, you just lose the ability to use the feat if you don't have the item equipped.

I am the DM to this particular game, and I am sticking firm to "Not taking two prestige classes at once and "take the whole prestige class once you start it". These are very powerful characters, and Mustache's is going to be the most powerful one in the longterm simply because he will be built to go against the main enemies, the other characters are not really.

Also, don't hold your breath on wraithstrike, as that might be a little bit TOO much once you count all those gazillion attacks that you could then power attack away your whole bab and still hit with.

Gazillion attacks? For level 16+, I was only looking at: 4(BAB) + 3(TWF route) + 1 (Archon Bite) + 2(Archon Slams) + 1(Snap Kick feat) + 1(Haste) = 12. That's not too many. Fine I tell you what, after I finish out Hound Archon, I'll take a level of Barbarian; specifically, Lion Totem Barbarian with the Whirling Frenzy varient to get Pounce and an additional attack per round. That would make a lucky 13 attacks!

Back on topic, there is the no 2 PrCs at same time rule (which I have no problem with paige and acutally brought up myself), not to mention, I have to finish Hound Archon before I can go into anything else. It specifically states in Savage Species that once you go into a Monster Class you have to finish it out completely. The reason they give is so players don't simply take one level to gain a type/sub-type and then switch to a regular class. It's a pretty stupid lame reason they give but I guess there are times when you would need a subtype change (to qualify for some PrCs for one).

The one real optimization I wish I could make, would be to take Quicken Spell-like Ability for my Teleport without Error. Unfortunately, it isn't even possible as the ability acts as though Greater Teleport, a 7th level spell, cast by a 14th level caster. Quicken Spell-like Ability, specifically states:

You can only select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to one-half your caster level (round down), -4. See the table below.

That means to quicken a spell-like ability duplicating a 7th level spell I'd need a caster level of 22 (22*.5 = 11 - 4 = 7). That said there will be no Mr. Holy Dog Man teleporting around the field and full attacking in the same round lol.


Also Hound Archons get the ability to take the form of any canine. They give examples such as a dog and a wolf. Would a Lycanthrope count? LOL

--------------

To Paige: Hey since you happened upon my topic, I'll tell you a couple updates here. First, I removed the bloodline and Paragon levels like you stated to do last week. Remember you said play it how I had it but just change it. That should tone down my guy definitely. I just took straight Archon like you said.

Also remember how you were saying my mount couldn't get hover? Look here: Hover. Of course I didn't know if you all picked the feats for my pegasus or went with standard (I haven't looked him up in the MM yet).

Also I was reading up on Hound Archon in the MM and I found something very interesting. Particularly this:

Hound Archon Hero Mounts:
In the course of their Adventures, many hound archon heroes befriend bronze dragons, which may come to serve as their mounts. The relationship between these mounts and their celestial riders goes beyond even the special bond between paladin and mount. The dragon and the archon are naturally allies and friends, as can be expected of two powerful servants of cosmic justice. The juvenile bronze dragon mount gains 2 additional HD, 4 points of Strength, an additional 4 points of natural armor, improved evasion, and +10 feet to speed in all its movement forms. The dragon cannot, however, command other creatures of its type as other kinds of paladin mouns can.

That was listed under the Hound Archon Hero in MM1 which is a Hound Archon who has taken 11 levels in pally. Just something interesting I found that would make for a cool mount (end game obviously *wink* *wink*).

Anyway, after finishing Archon, I was thinking I'll just continue where I left off in pally. Right now I am: Pally 5/Hellreaver 1//Hound Archon 6. I was thinking something like: Pally 5/Hellreaver 10/*whatever 5*//Hound Archon 11/Pally 6-14. That is assuming I can continue in pally on my gestalt side.

[paigeoliver]

Well I know it isn't a gazillion attacks. But it looks like that particular combo could 1 shot a Balor and still have attacks left over, thus it may be a bit much.

Hee, hee, barbarian levels can't go with Paladin levels, that whole mutually exclusive alignment restriction thing.

Going back to Paladin after you finish out hound archon is fine. Special paladin mounts will also be fine, although I will say when they appear.

Check your mount against the Monster Manual, it probably gained a feat from hit dice. Josh leveled it up. I don't care if you switch the feat to hover.

I would say lycanthropes would not count.

[Keld Denar]

Given what Paigeoliver's said, I'd suggest this then...

Pally5/Hellreaver10/OrdainedChamp5//Archon11/Fighter4/Pally5

Alternate your Pally levels with Fighter levels while you are taking Ordained Champion so that you don't duel-progress your casting levels as much as possible. Also, I know you have to finish your PrCs, but if you could grab at LEAST 2 OC levels ASAP, that would make you a lot more effective. Pally5/HR1/OC2 would be a good spot to get to before going back and taking more levels of HR. I forget, does HR advance your Pally spellcasting or have any spellcasting on its own? I'm also assuming you are taking Battle Blessing and Awesome Smite from Complete Champion? Awesome Smite in particular synergizes with OC2, giving you the ability to bypass magical concealment when you smite, or bypass really esoteric DRs. Awesome Smite also couples well with a Revelation Crystal (Weapon Augement Crystals are in the MIC). Awesome Smite to counter the miss chance, light em up with the Crystal, and the rest of your attacks won't have issues hitting.

Also, you might want to check your Dex reqs. I thought TWF, ITWF, GTWF required a 15, 17, 19 Dex respectively, unless your DM is house ruling them all into one feat and the prereq is only 15. Thats what I would do. TWFer are already stupidly MAD and feat starved...

And your whole idea of getting tons of attacks and then PAing with all of them isn't so great. Depending on your weapons, you are only gonna get 1:1 PA with your natural weapons, since I think the Elbow Blades are considered Light IIRC. Light weapons get a 0:1 return on PA (meaning you can take the penalty, but you don't get any damage!). That would kill that idea significantly. You still need PA as a prereq to Divine Might though, which is still worth it!

And the +20 at ECL11...I'm thinkin you start with a 16 Str, get +4 from Archon, +4 from an item (assuming you put your 2 leveling points in Cha), that gives you a 24 Str, plus a couple from Holy Fury (again, IIRC) which is +7-8. A +3 weapon (assuming a CL12 GMW) bumps you to +10 total. Weapon Focus as required by OC takes you to +11. Haste to +12. Hero's Feast to +13. IWIN Stone to +~14. Thats about all I can get to alone, and I don't know your group, but a +3 luck from Recitatation and a +6 Bard Song souldn't be uncommon bringing you to +22 or so.

Knowledge and Law Devotions would be amazing for your character, though, you know that? Especially if you will be fighting mostly outsiders, pick up Kn: Planes as a class skill from Knowledge Devotion and keep it maxed. That should result in about +3/+3 hit/dmg at level 11 pretty constant, if not +4/+4. Knowledge Devotion is best taken early so you can put points into it asap. Minimum level to take it is 3 though, unless you dip Cloistered Cleric (not recommended).


Oh, and Scylfing, you explicitly CAN'T drop the War Domain for War Devotion at OC1. You CAN drop any other domain, but not War. You wouldn't want to anyway, since you lose out on about 1/3 of OC's class features if you don't have the War domain. I just think its stupid that there is a redundancy there in the Weapon Focus. The class is still worth it though.

[MustacheFart]

Given what Paigeoliver's said, I'd suggest this then...

Pally5/Hellreaver10/OrdainedChamp5//Archon11/Fighter4/Pally5

Alternate your Pally levels with Fighter levels while you are taking Ordained Champion so that you don't duel-progress your casting levels as much as possible. Also, I know you have to finish your PrCs, but if you could grab at LEAST 2 OC levels ASAP, that would make you a lot more effective. Pally5/HR1/OC2 would be a good spot to get to before going back and taking more levels of HR. I forget, does HR advance your Pally spellcasting or have any spellcasting on its own? I'm also assuming you are taking Battle Blessing and Awesome Smite from Complete Champion? Awesome Smite in particular synergizes with OC2, giving you the ability to bypass magical concealment when you smite, or bypass really esoteric DRs. Awesome Smite also couples well with a Revelation Crystal (Weapon Augement Crystals are in the MIC). Awesome Smite to counter the miss chance, light em up with the Crystal, and the rest of your attacks won't have issues hitting.

Also, you might want to check your Dex reqs. I thought TWF, ITWF, GTWF required a 15, 17, 19 Dex respectively, unless your DM is house ruling them all into one feat and the prereq is only 15. Thats what I would do. TWFer are already stupidly MAD and feat starved...

And your whole idea of getting tons of attacks and then PAing with all of them isn't so great. Depending on your weapons, you are only gonna get 1:1 PA with your natural weapons, since I think the Elbow Blades are considered Light IIRC. Light weapons get a 0:1 return on PA (meaning you can take the penalty, but you don't get any damage!). That would kill that idea significantly. You still need PA as a prereq to Divine Might though, which is still worth it!

And the +20 at ECL11...I'm thinkin you start with a 16 Str, get +4 from Archon, +4 from an item (assuming you put your 2 leveling points in Cha), that gives you a 24 Str, plus a couple from Holy Fury (again, IIRC) which is +7-8. A +3 weapon (assuming a CL12 GMW) bumps you to +10 total. Weapon Focus as required by OC takes you to +11. Haste to +12. Hero's Feast to +13. IWIN Stone to +~14. Thats about all I can get to alone, and I don't know your group, but a +3 luck from Recitatation and a +6 Bard Song souldn't be uncommon bringing you to +22 or so.

Knowledge and Law Devotions would be amazing for your character, though, you know that? Especially if you will be fighting mostly outsiders, pick up Kn: Planes as a class skill from Knowledge Devotion and keep it maxed. That should result in about +3/+3 hit/dmg at level 11 pretty constant, if not +4/+4. Knowledge Devotion is best taken early so you can put points into it asap. Minimum level to take it is 3 though, unless you dip Cloistered Cleric (not recommended).


Oh, and Scylfing, you explicitly CAN'T drop the War Domain for War Devotion at OC1. You CAN drop any other domain, but not War. You wouldn't want to anyway, since you lose out on about 1/3 of OC's class features if you don't have the War domain. I just think its stupid that there is a redundancy there in the Weapon Focus. The class is still worth it though.

Where are Knowledge and Law Devotions listed? I've never heard of them until when someone mentioned them in my last topic.

Okay, scratch the above, I found them. Knowledge Devotion looks especially badass. How could I pump my knowledge(The Planes) high enough to reliably get a 36 with a crappy int score?

As for the dex reqs. of 15, 17, and 19, I just planned to use a magic item to meet them. I'll have a belt of magnificance +6 eventually; couple that with a base dex of 13 and I'll have the 19 I need (13 + 6). Ya, it's 3 feats I gotta eat but I can't see a way around it if I want to be TWF.

About the Ordained Champion levels, the PrC doesn't look that good to me. Since I am not a cleric I wouldn't get:

• combat feats
• modified spontaneous casting
• and rapid spontaneous casting

Also the Smite ability states it does damage equal to my turn/rebuke level. Wouldn't that be low since I turn as though a cleric of my paladin level - 3? Fist of the Gods isn't bad (Divine Bulwark seems kind of a waste to me) but it takes a swift action and don't I already have several abilities that require a swift action?

Now Charnell spell does look really nice. However, Holy Warrior doesn't. It states I can sacrifice one daily turn/rebuke undead attempt to use my wisdom instead of my strength on attack and damage rolls. Well, my wisdom sucks arse. I can't see how this would be beneficial unless you're saying I should pump wis???

I'm just having a hard time seeing how this PrC would really help. I'm sure I'm missing something so, any additional information/thoughts about why I should take it would be great!

Also, with the +3 Divine spellcasting from OC that would leave me with a total of caster level 13 for paladin casting (5 paladin main side + 5 paladin gestalt side + 3 from OC = 13). That's 1 level away from getting access to 4th level paladin spells.

Wouldn't it be better to...maybe...instead of taking 5 paladin/4 fighter on my gestalt side...take 6 paladin/2 Fighter/1 Rogue(Feat Rogue)? I know feat rogue is kind of cheap but that would net me the same amount of feats...3 AND I would have a total paladin caster level of 14 getting 4th level spells!

Another question I have is what should my spell list look like? Like what spells should I have? What should I use them for (Charnell, Fist of the Gods, etc)? Etc.

Thanks for all the help btw!!

[monty]

Where are Knowledge and Law Devotions listed? I've never heard of them until when someone mentioned them in my last topic.

They're both core, and can be found here.

[MustacheFart]

They're both core, and can be found here.

I think he meant the Devotion Feats from Complete Champion.

[monty]

I think he meant the Devotion Feats from Complete Champion.

Wow, that's about the fifth post I've misinterpreted today (though not all on this forum). I'm on a roll.

[Keld Denar]

Really the biggest thing you get from OC is extra smitage. Sure, the smite won't be SUPER powerful, but they are still smites which give you +cha to hit (great for your tertiatry attacks, since with a decent cha, will bring them up to the level of your secondary attacks) and they trigger the Awesome Smite feat (if you take it, which I highly recommend). That alone is worth the loss of 2 paladin caster levels. The other stuff is just gravy. I'd say dip 2 levels just for that, but your DM doesn't like dipping, which is why I'd recommend all 5 levels.

[woodenbandman]

Divine Crusader is downright awesome with a few Paladin levels to support it. It gets you just 1 domain. Just 1. But if you wanted to get funky, you could add domains onto it via Contemplative, Seeker of the Misty Isle, Divine Oracle, Church Inquisitor, Etc. I rather like Divine Crusader. It's by no means the best choice, but it's certainly a very decent and strong option to tack on to a paladin or sorceror because of fully charisma based spellcasting. Sorceror/Divine Crusader/Mystic Theurge with something like Strength or War domain can be pretty house, and it gets better when you add BOTH!

[Keld Denar]

Yea, Divine Crusader is pretty sexy. Check this build out for info. Ordained Champion gets you the War domain to go with any domain you pick. I recommend picking Travel for the mobility spells and decent domain ability.

Unfortunatly, doesn't fit in well with the OP's DM's rules...

[MustacheFart]

Yea, Divine Crusader is pretty sexy. Check this build out for info. Ordained Champion gets you the Law domain to go with any domain you pick. I recommend picking Travel for the mobility spells and decent domain ability.

Unfortunatly, doesn't fit in well with the OP's DM's rules...

I thought OC got you the war domain? Oh well, nevertheless, I see what you mean about the smite. That would further ensure that almost all my attacks hit. Also with a continually bumped cha (+ that from a magic item), I'm going to have a nice amount of turns to use up.

I still have 2 questions though.

Question #1:

Whats the best way to bump my Knowledge(The Planes) for use with the Knowledge Devotion feat? Obviously, I dumped int(which you can see in above posts) so I don't got any points coming from there at the moment. At most I'll have 2 points coming from int (when I get a +6 belt of magnificance).

So, at let's say level 15, I will have: 18 (Max ranks) + 2(int) = 20. To get a 36 (minimum needed to get the most from Knowledge Devotion) I'd have to roll a 16. Any way to bring down the needed roll? Are there any crazy good items out there to bump my knowledge(The Planes)?

Question #2:

What spells should I pick for my paladin spells?


-------------------------

Specifically to Keld Denar:

I forgot you asked before if Hellreaver has any casting. It does not. It just grants you Hellfury points of which I can use to do a number of cool things such as heal, boost a save, boost attack & damage, boost Ac, and the best use a death attack, that should it work, kills the target and blinds any enemies nearby automatically. Although, it is only 1/day the save DC does progress, as it uses character level (DC = 10 + Cha + Character Level) thank god and not the typical class level.

That said, do you think my idea about taking 6 more paladin, 2 fighter, and 1 feat rogue on my gestalt side in order to get 4th level spells, would be better than taking your recommended 5 more paladin and 4 fighter? I mean I'd get same amount of feats and another level of casting. This is all at the 18-20 range so I can't see taking a 1 level dip into feat rogue really freaking out the DM. Plus it isn't a PrC.

[Aquillion]

Hmm. Would a feat that gives you the granted power (and no other benefits) of one domain you could qualify for be unbalanced?