[4E] - Ruthless Ruffian Rogue Build

[Drakefall]

So yeah, in the 4E campaign I'm playing in I feel the urge to retire my current wizard. He had a good, if albeit short, run buy now I'm finding that he's not meshing entirely to well with the rest of the party morals wise. He, in fact, attacked their employer after he ordered the execution of a town guard and sadly failed to do anything against him at all... I'm rather surprised he's still alive actually. Also, in truth, I'm not really enjoying the controller play style so much at the moment.

So in the interest of not getting ganked by my own party, and for the sake of trying out a different play style, I have opted to try to make a ruthless ruffian style rogue from martial power.

The character will be second level and here's my initial attempt.

Male halfling rogue
Str: 14
Con: 10
Dex: 19
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 16

Feats
Backstabber - Sneak attack die become d8's
Lost in the crowd - +2 AC when adjacent to two larger enemies

The problem with this is my AC is only 17, which seems a tad on the low side as I won't be having the same shifting options as an artful dodger.

To counter this I tried making a Drow rogue with the same stats but with parrying dagger proficiency instead of lost in the crowd thus affording me an extra 1 AC and the Cloud of Darkness awesomeness to bump my defenses up.

The only real problem I really have is that I quite like my halfling character I've thought up. The drow not as much. Yes it's a sad problem but it's the biggest I've got.

And thus I come to the playground to ask for 1): any helpful build advice that'd make either character a bit more defensive or more effective in general and 2): any backstory elements for a rough and rude type drow rogue that might make me want to play him more.

Thanks in advance!

[Hal]

Well, gnomes have the racial power Fade Away, which is certainly conducive to rogue-like activities.

I'm not near my books at the moment, but I'd have sworn that Ruthless Rufians benefited more from strength than from charisma.

Otherwise, squishiness is just part of being a rogue. In general, you want to be working intimately with the party's defender(s) to get your sneak attacks in without being the primary target.

[Tygell]

I thought the whole point of Ruthless Ruffians was that they focused on Maces instead of light blades, but I see you mentioning a parrying dagger. I also thought that str was their second stat, thus cha isn't needed.

Neither Drow nor Halflings make the best Brutal or Ruthless rogues, IMO. They would be playable of course, it just depends on how optimized you want to be.

[Saintjebus]

Well, if you're worried about squishiness, I would drop Backstabber and take Defensive Mobility instead. 90% of the attacks that target the rogue are the result of AoOs. Defensive mobility will help with that alot. It also give the versatility to stay in a CA position.


P.S. I am sorry if my advice is based on wrong info.... I don't have MP, so I don't know the class features, etc. of Ruthless Ruffian.

[Mando Knight]

I thought the whole point of Ruthless Ruffians was that they focused on Maces instead of light blades, but I see you mentioning a parrying dagger. I also thought that str was their second stat, thus cha isn't needed.

Nope, Ruthless Ruffians need Charisma more than Strength. They don't need either stat as much as Artful Dodgers or Brutal Scoundrels, though. Only a few powers have added effects for Ruthless Ruffians, and of them only Stinging Squall (Rogue Attack 17, Encounter) and Stupefying Violence (Rogue Attack 27, Encounter) play off one of your secondary stats. The only Paragon Path that seems to play to Ruthless Ruffians is Strong-Arm Enforcer, which also has a few abilities that play off of Charisma, but a Utility power that plays off of Strength.

[Tygell]

One of the ruthless ruffian class abilities uses your str mod for ALL rattling attacks. I'm not sure if you're not aware of that, or just ignoring it?

MP pg. 73

Spoiler

Show

Ruthless Ruffian: You are proficient with the
club and the mace, and you can use those weapons
with Sneak Attack or any rogue power that normally
requires a light blade. If you use a club or a mace to
deliver an attack that has the rattling keyword, add
your Strength modifier to the damage roll.

Bolded for importance. If you're going the ruthless ruffian route and taking charisma instead of strength, you're not fulfilling your striker potential. You should have dex primary, str secondary, and MAYBE cha tertiary, though I would take wisdom or con over charisma for this build.

[Drakefall]

One of the ruthless ruffian class abilities uses your str mod for ALL rattling attacks. I'm not sure if you're not aware of that, or just ignoring it?

I'm ignoring it for a reason which may or may not be a good idea but seems fine to me. That being that, while str is used to add extra damage to all rattling attacks, cha is used to boost at least the levels 1 and 3 rattling encounter powers and one of the level five rattling dailies. It seems to be a pattern for them and I'm willing to sacrifice 1 or 2 str damage for some cha damage, which negates the loss anyway, or some effect and the ability to maybe take other cha using abilities later if I need them for mobility, effects or whatever else.

About the parrying dagger: It's my attempt to gain an extra 1 AC by sacrificing 1 damage for not wielding the mace two handed, but I'm still on the fence with it. Defensive mobility does seem an appealing idea.

[NPCMook]

You could go with a Kobold, if your DM would allow it. If you are worried about having movement, then Kobold is the way to go since they can shift twice a round.

[Mando Knight]

One of the ruthless ruffian class abilities uses your str mod for ALL rattling attacks. I'm not sure if you're not aware of that, or just ignoring it?

Ah. I missed it, actually.

In that case, I'd pack 14 each of Strength and Charisma, then boost Strength and Dexterity each time...

[Drakefall]

Well the WotC character builder thingy originally gave me 11 in str for some reason even though I didn't even select a build option... which I just found plain weird.

Rethinking my build on the advice given I could go with a 20 in dex and then a 14 and 13 in str and cha respectively and boost those at lvl 4 +. The extra cha was just for the bonuses it gave to some powers but I can easily choose others. And an extra +1 to hit and AC would be very welcome and that way I wouldn't have to worry about trying to nab +1 AC from a parrying dagger either.

So that would be:

Str: 14
Con: 10
Dex: 20
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 13

Feats:
Backstabber
Defensive Mobility

Powers:
At will: Disheartening Strike, Riposte Strike
Encounter: Termination Threat
Daily: Handspring Assault
Utility: Tumble

[DragonBaneDM]

That sounds good. And depending on how long this character lasts, grab Executioner's Mien. It's fantastic. All of your powers. Rattling.

[RTGoodman]

If you're not using a mace, is there a particular REASON you're going with Ruthless Ruffian?

I mean, it seems to me you'd be better off either going Brutal Scoundrel with a higher Str (since you add Str to damage with SAs), or Artful Dodger with higher Cha (for better AC vs. OAs). You can pick the Rattling powers with either of those builds, too (they just require you to be trained in Intimidate, which you can with either other build option), and you get better class features.

EDIT: Even looking at your selected powers, only termination threat, I believe, has a special benefit for RRs, and you could easily pick another 1st-level encounter attack power that'd have just as good of an effect for a different build option, I bet.

[Jack_Banzai]

If you're not using a mace, is there a particular REASON you're going with Ruthless Ruffian?

I made a Ruthless Ruffian. For fun. Works quite nicely actually!

And yeah there is one reason the Ruthless Ruffian class feature works nicely. You get the Strength modifier on Rattling attacks whether or not you are inflicting Sneak Attack damage. True, in a perfect world the Rogue is always dealing Sneak Attack damage. But this ain't a perfect world, and depending on how ruthlessly tactical your DM gets (mine is a wargamer and every monster's movement is plotted with unstoppable cunning) you might be glad of that bonus to your damage when you can get it.

Also, playing a Rogue using a mace can just be funny. And, if you're in an optimizing mood, the bigger damage dice make 2W, 3W and 4W attacks much more dramatic.

[Yakk]

So the first rule of rogues is "accuracy > damage boost".

A 1d4 weapon with 2d6 sneak attack and 5 dex damage and 2-3 from another source averages 17 damage per hit and 23-24 on a crit.

55% hit/5% crit is 10.55 damage on average per attack attempt.
60% hit/5% crit is 11.4 damage on average per attack attempt.
55% hit/5% crit with backstabber is 11.85 damage on average per attack attempt.

But on any higher-W powers, or any powers with effects on a hit, the +5% hit boosts those effects, but doesn't boost damage.

And in addition, additional to-hit chance lowers your damage output variance, which makes you more reliable.

In short, build your rogue to hit.

[Mando Knight]

Also, playing a Rogue using a mace can just be funny. And, if you're in an optimizing mood, the bigger damage dice make 2W, 3W and 4W attacks much more dramatic.

Double Sword. Oops.

[Jack_Banzai]

Double Sword. Oops.

True but... and god I am going to get flak for this....

I hate the double sword. Just one look at the pictures and I knew it wasn't for me. And never would be. It's just ugly. And I can't see my character drinking a beer with one of those things leaning against his chair. No sir, if I'm going to be using a double weapon, it's going to be a quarterstaff (with the appropriate feat naturally) or nothing.

[Mando Knight]

I hate the double sword. Just one look at the pictures and I knew it wasn't for me. And never would be. It's just ugly. And I can't see my character drinking a beer with one of those things leaning against his chair. No sir, if I'm going to be using a double weapon, it's going to be a quarterstaff (with the appropriate feat naturally) or nothing.

I'm with you there. But apparently the editors at WotC are Darth Maul fans, so they had to make it the most brokenly overpowered weapon available. Even if you're just using one end of it, it's the same as wielding both a Rapier and a Parrying Dagger with proficiency. For one less feat. And Tempest Technique's bonus for wielding an off-hand weapon in both hands. And is both a Heavy Blade and a Light Blade.

I would actually remove Defensive from most of the double weapons, and make the Double Sword a Heavy Blade only. Or else, decrease its damage dice to 1d6.

[Yakk]

I'm with you there. But apparently the editors at WotC are Darth Maul fans, so they had to make it the most brokenly overpowered weapon available. Even if you're just using one end of it, it's the same as wielding both a Rapier and a Parrying Dagger with proficiency. For one less feat. And Tempest Technique's bonus for wielding an off-hand weapon in both hands. And is both a Heavy Blade and a Light Blade.

I would actually remove Defensive from most of the double weapons, and make the Double Sword a Heavy Blade only. Or else, decrease its damage dice to 1d6.

Heck:
Double Weapon Defence: You treat your double weapon as if it was a defensive weapon.

(Quarterstaff, as a double weapon, keeps the defensive feature without this feat).

The Double Sword should also lose the light blade property. Light blades in 4e suck by design. Except for the notable exception of the double sword...

[Jack_Banzai]

I'm with you there. But apparently the editors at WotC are Darth Maul fans, so they had to make it the most brokenly overpowered weapon available. Even if you're just using one end of it, it's the same as wielding both a Rapier and a Parrying Dagger with proficiency. For one less feat. And Tempest Technique's bonus for wielding an off-hand weapon in both hands. And is both a Heavy Blade and a Light Blade.

I would actually remove Defensive from most of the double weapons, and make the Double Sword a Heavy Blade only. Or else, decrease its damage dice to 1d6.

My friend, you are welcome at my gaming table anytime.