Well that didn't go as planned...

[kalt]

Well last nights session was at best unique... The DM jumped us with 5 drow assasins (I'd think Rogue ~7-8), each had taken potions of bull str, cats grace, and haste, that dropped darkness on the party and proceeded to kill everyone within the span of a single round. So I learned Rogues that can create darkness as an immediate action can get their damage up fairly quickly.

So anyway 2 of the 5 people at the table just got frustrated said f*** it and left. I myself was more than slightly annoyed, but had enough beer in me to just not care that much and I know the other 2 were miffed as well. As a little backstory lets just say TPK's have not been a rare occurance and I think the two that left aren't coming back. So now our party of 5 is down to a party of 3 and I'm a little curious on what people think I should try out. Of the two remaining people one will be a dread necromancer(was a dread necromancer) and the other wants to play a warlock(was a duskblade). So any thoughts? I'm going to have to say lets think optimized because god knows I guess I need it. The other point I find weird is that the DM likes to say players characters are optimized and I have yet to see one hit the table, yet he is most certainly throwing enemies at us that are and it is starting to get a little frustrating. [Rant /end]

[Douglas]

So you want an optimized character. What kind, and what level?

There's CoDzilla, batman wizard/Incantatrix, Ubercharger, and any number of other possibilities.

Edit: Also, it sounds like your DM needs to read the rules better. Darkness works even against darkvision, so you would have had concealment from the drow and you can't sneak attack targets that have concealment.

[kamikasei]

You're not going to singlehandedly stave off TPK, independent of the builds of the other players. Talk to the DM. Tell him you feel he's running the game too lethally for your tastes, and you simply don't want to get in to an optimization race.

That said, perhaps a crusader for sustainable minor healing?

[Tempest Fennac]

I agree with Crusader. Core Druid would provide you with a meat shield in the form of a companion if you didn't want to be a melee warrior. To be fair, I can see why the other players cleared off; it sounds like the DM intended to get a TPK.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Maybe we're looking at this all wrong. The goal shouldnb't be to optimize enough to win encounters, the goal should be to optimize enough to survive them. Something like going Necropolitan or something for the Undead type, grabbing Wizard levels for Celerity and Contingency, and building off of that to ensure that you never die.

[Eldariel]

For Dread Necro & Warlock, I only see one right choice: Druid. Druid 20. That'll make you a Panzerwagen x 2 just happens to also be a perfectly capable controller & divinist & world annihilator & sneak; just what the party needs as while Dread Necro can have some toys, they're pretty fragile. Best of all, PHB only, no work required. Although Natural Bond, Greenbound Summoning (although you're about to reach Rashemi Elemental Summoning-levels now), Frozen Wildshape & Nightbringer Initiate couldn't hurt.

Boosted AC, Sneak-skills (to go with your superb Spot/Listen/Survival), insanely awesome summons, Cryohydra Wildshape for melee & a bunch of offensive spells (Enervation, anyone?) sounds solid. The only thing you're missing is Trapfinding (which is a pretty big problem looking at your party & by the sound of your DM); Summon Elemental Reserve Feat could help, but it doesn't sound like your DM is pulling punches which might mean that triggering a trap from afar is just as big a problem as stepping on it. That leaves you with either burning a feat on it (take the feat "Planar Touchstone" [PlH] - choose "Catalogues of Enlightenment" as your site, which grants you a Domain Granted Power - pick Kobold) or dipping a level of Ninja for free Wis to AC, Sudden Strike & Trapfinding - you'd still either need to buy ranks cross class or pick Able Learner though (most likely the latter).

Best would be if one of the other tools did something useful in that regard though. Then again, since you're the only sneak and the only character with decent spot in the party along with the only decent frontliner, chances are you'd be in the front.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

while Dread Necro can have some toys, they're pretty fragile.

Uh, no. It's pretty easy to have your monsters with +6 hp/HD as a DN, and you can be animating stuff with 2x your CL in HD. At level 7 that's 175 HP. That's anything but fragile.

[Tempest Fennac]

The Warlock could take Summon Swarm as an Invocation for trap disarming.

[Eldariel]

Uh, no. It's pretty easy to have your monsters with +6 hp/HD as a DN, and you can be animating stuff with 2x your CL in HD. At level 7 that's 175 HP. That's anything but fragile.

Mmm, true - I didn't account for the means to boost UD HP/HD. That changes things...but not my suggestion; after all, a Druid is everything else too.

[Person_Man]

Several things:

You cannot be attacked if your enemy does not have line of sight. You can avoid line of sight by using burrow or earth glide or something similar, and tremorsense to see. The is generally referred to as a mole build, and it's been optimized on various threads.

Similarly, your enemy has no reason to attack you if they're not aware of your presence. So Hide in Plain Site + Darkstalker + high Hide/Move Silently means that you won't be attacked (unless they use an area of attack ability, and you're just caught up in it, or you attack them and reveal your presence).

If your DM is big into ambushes, then you need a high Initiative and Spot/Listen checks. Consider a Dex/Wis build, like a Psychic Warrior or Swordsage. Keep an eye out for items and spells and whatnot that boost these.

In terms of build, I'd need to know your ECL and books available to be of any real help.

[kalt]

Well the drow could see through their own darkness through one of the feats they had (I believe it is in DotU). The dread necromancer is in fact fragile, but the things he animates are far from it. He has 2 cloud giants and actually just picked up a large green dragon. He has rod of undead mastery as well and all his feats are centered around his undead that he summons/animates. A druid is what I was originally leaning towards as well, but I'd love to see a solid psychic warrior build. Ohh we are 9th level and all books are a go and we can't use flaws. We have a total of 74 points to buy attributes (1 point = 1 point) and this adventure arc goes to 18 but he has a followup adventure that goes to 21. I honestly think he did not realize how effective the assasins would be and by the time he did realize it people were already more than a little pissed.

[streakster]

May I recommend a Pixie for the Warlock? Bit of LA, but it makes you well-nigh impossible to kill.

[kalt]

I think that would be a decent idea, but don't know if the DM would allow it. He was already getting pretty whiney with a +2LA so I don't know if a Pixie (at what +4 or something) would fly (go go pun!).

[Tempest Fennac]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106541 could give you some Psychic Warrior help (my LA 0 Gnoll would be good for a natural weapon-based build because it already has a bite attack).

[Who_Da_Halfling]

honestly this sounds like a problem that is going to be solved less by good character build and more by talking to the DM. Even if he didn't intend for them to be that awesome, he could still have salvaged it by having the assassins decide to capture you instead of killing you or even by fudging rolls when he realized that he was going to TPK all of you.

Of course, if he meant to TPK you, then it's pretty clear that there's nothing you could do to get around it, b/c he will likely just build an encounter to defeat your weaknesses and kill you.

I recommend talking to him. If it's the first problem, he may fix it and you won't have to worry about it.

If it's the second problem, you should either a) leave or b) deliberately build the worst character possible (but one that will be moderately fun to play/RP). I recommend a Kobold Sorcerer with 11 Cha and all its stats in Intelligence with high ranks and Skill Focus in Craft: (Rocking Chair). Give him whatever Dex you want and outfit him with a suit of Splint Mail and a Tower Shield. Just go crazy with the RP.

The point of this, of course, is to spite the DM. Then, when you've had your fun, leave.

-JM

[kalt]

Hmm well I'm not sure I want to spite him because I do quite enjoy the majority of the people I play with. The problem I see now though is that we most certainly lost 2 players and I have a feeling they have absolutely no desire to come back. I guess I could just use some advice with optimization to try to fill the gaping whole that is left. I mean I guess a dread necromancer can put enough hitpoints in front of us to be a quasi meatshield. The warlock i'm up in the air about because if he plays his invocations right it could be really useful. Yet that leaves skill monkey&healer wide open and the healing part I think is pretty vital.

[Falling Out]

Just a thought...but it seems optimized or not you might be in trouble. It has already been pointed out that the DM broke the RAW to have that happen so even optimizing RAW on your end cannot possibly compare to a DM that a) clearly intends to kill characters and b) is willing to break rules to do so.

Now, this is within the DM's right to take rules as they please....

1) Darkness negates darkvision so concealment and line of sight issues means no sneak attack (or attacks...or at least 50% miss and no sneak attack)

2) Darkness is a Spell-like ability and unless quickened (special feat needed to quicken and needs caster level 10+) it takes a standard action to use

3) Ambush means surprise round which means only 1 standard action allowed - hard to get flanking, cannot move, only 1 attack OR spell-like ability (see above)

So that sounds like 3 rules broken or bent simply to kill players. If he foreshodowed it well and the party stupidly walked into a place they really know they should not have...fine. But otherwise, you really might want to chat with the DM.

Fair is Fair...and when it isn't...?

[krossbow]

My group had a similiar experience with one of our DMs.


After some issues like that, We basically told him that we had decided to have one of the Player characters move up to DM for the next campaign.






Unfortunately, he of course got infuriated over his demotion and refused to play a player character, but frankly in situations like this you'll have alot more fun if you simply change the DM. If you have a new DM you also might be able to possibly talk one or two of your players that left into coming back.

[Eldariel]

Get Healing Belt [MiC] for everyone to look partially into the Healing, and use Wands of Lesser Vigor. Other than that, pack Scroll of Revivify [SpC] or two; much cheaper than actual revival, and no levels lost to boot. But yea, Druid sounds like it hits the sweet spot. It has decent skills (I do suggest high Int one though and probably using feats to expand your skill list to properly cover the monkey role), is a great frontliner and packs superb offensive and defensive spellcasting to boot, and comes with a free Fighter.

[Who_Da_Halfling]

I wouldn't say automatically that the DM is out to kill the PCs, but I would suggest that it's possible. It's also possible that he forgot how those rules work. I for one would not have remembered off-hand that you only get a standard action during a surprise round, nor that Drow can neither see in Darkness nor cast it the way it was used. Thus, without looking those things up, I could see how the DM might have accidentally made the encounter much too deadly.

On the other side of that, however, it is the DM's responsibility to realize when he's made a mistake like that and own up to it, either by adjusting the encounter (fudging an attack roll or two to allow the PCs a chance to fight) or just out-and-out apologizing and hitting the undo button or somesuch. Ultimately, if the DM didn't mean to kill you, he should be willing to fix the problem that led to him killing you (and, if he's willing to admit that his mistake shouldn't happen, possibly un-killing you).

That's why you need to have a conversation with the DM. B/c if the DM is trying to kill you, then you may need to switch DMs (since you like your group). It's one thing to make your level 10 party fight a CR 11 monster just to challenge them and see if they can pull it out, but its another entire to have them fight a Tarrasque or something from which they have no reasonable chance of victory. If the party has no chance, its either railroading or something has gone wrong.

-JM

[Eldariel]

I wouldn't say automatically that the DM is out to kill the PCs, but I would suggest that it's possible. It's also possible that he forgot how those rules work. I for one would not have remembered off-hand that you only get a standard action during a surprise round, nor that Drow can neither see in Darkness nor cast it the way it was used. Thus, without looking those things up, I could see how the DM might have accidentally made the encounter much too deadly.

Meh, it may just be that the party lacks Spot. Both the things they normally lack were available as feats for Drow in Drow of the Underdark; swift Darkness & seeing in Darkness. The party wasn't outmuscled, it was hit in a soft spot. That might happen when a party has a soft spot. Even just Listening Lorecall on (second level 10 min/level spell, easy enough to keep online all the time) would've given them Blindsight thus denying the Drow the surprise round (you can charge as a standard action provided that you're limited to standard action and if they had even Light Weapon Pounce, that's all it takes for a full attack on the surprise round).

[kalt]

Yes we did have a certain soft spot in that point. I also believe that they did have the two feats you were talking about. It wasn't even so much that they had those feats alone is that they were fully buffed with some nasty potions (haste, cats grace, bull strength). One problem was that I had played a druid and he cried cheese so i switched and now I get hit with this crap. I'm a little upset that it looks like it, atleast partially, wrecked his campaign which was pretty fun.

I'm certain the DM did plan the encounter to be challenging, but I don't think he designed it to be impossible and now everyone is paying for it. So if you had to fill out the rest of the party what would you recommend?

[Skaven]

Sounds like the problem lies with your DM and not you in anyway.

Really, from that little story alone, I can tell it doesnt matter what you are going to play, and the more thought you put into your character, the more disappointed you will be when you die.. again.

[kalt]

yes I'd tend to agree, but I guess what I'm asking is now since we are down to 3 and we have a warlock and a dread necromancer what do you think would be the best thing to fill the gap. I'm just trying to make it managable and you are correct it was entirely the DM's fault and I think he gets that now, though sadly we are 2 down.

[krossbow]

make that druid again. If he cries foul again, tell him that as long as his NPCs use non-core feats, you have no issues using a druid.

[Tokiko Mima]

If Pixie Warlock is out, who about trying a Karsite Dragonfire Adept? The goal of this build is to maximize every defense possible. A Karsite (ToM) has SR equal to a drow, all the advantages of a human (free feat and skill points), and the ability to heal when it absorbs a spell. Best of all it starts proficient with Medium armor, and since humanoids with any armor proficiency automatically get Shield Proficiency, you're automatically equipped to use a Tower Shield.

Invocations do suffer ACF, but it's not a problem if you pick 24-hour long buffs from your Draconic Invocation list. Dragonbreath is supernatural and doesn't trigger Spell resistance, so rest easy as you superheat your drow assassin friends into melty little puddles.

In short, you'll be able to max out your AC, take advantage of the nice saving throws DFA's get, get relevant ability bonuses with no negatives and be ready to pick up the best 24 hour duration flight abilities anywhere. All while pumping out area damage every round from a safe distance, covered by a tower shield you never have to drop or lower.

[Skaven]

In that case I would personally go for something either

a, Big and tough that can soak up hits and deal them. Probably a Barbarian or Fighter. I'm fond of Minotaur's for this role. that's just me though, heh. Read one too many Kaz novels.

or

b, Something that can evade hits and use skills. Probably an AC optimised Rogueish build.

[kalt]

hmm any thoughts on arcane trickster? I've never played one before and was browsing through some books and while my AC wouldn't be great I'd assume they are kinda nasty to pin down.

[tyckspoon]

Best of all it starts proficient with Medium armor, and since humanoids with any armor proficiency automatically get Shield Proficiency, you're automatically equipped to use a Tower Shield.

This only works if you are (A) using a race with racial hit dice and (B) that race normally wears or is noted as proficient with armor. If you don't have racial hit dice, your proficiencies are by class instead, which does not automatically couple armor and shield proficiencies (although classes that have armor proficiency usually *do* have shield proficiency, there is nothing that forces it- even in the core classes, Rogues can wear light armor but don't have shield proficiency. And Fighters are the only class that gets Tower Shield proficiency as a bonus- it's a separate category from light and heavy shields.)

[Eldariel]

Sounds like the problem lies with your DM and not you in anyway.

Really, from that little story alone, I can tell it doesnt matter what you are going to play, and the more thought you put into your character, the more disappointed you will be when you die.. again.

Then again, let's not be too harsh; if you're up against the Drow in the underdark, a level appropriate ambush (such as this here) is precisely what you should be expecting...en masse. So I think he's just offering logical, and by the numbers fair challenge that just petered out since the party happened to not be prepared for ambushes in a sitiuation where they definitely should have been (y'know, if drow are to be expected, etc.).

So I'd say the fault lies equally on both sides (of course, this is a conclusion reached through insufficient data to properly analyse all the factors and thus might be way out there; still, I'm a bit shocked by how the forum seems to unanimously judge the DM here when it's fully possible that there was nothing unfair in what he was doing). If it's clearly a lethal campaign and a level-appropriate encounter, no fudging necessary; death is a part of the game.


Arcane Trickster is fine (although I personally vastly prefer Unseen Seer [CMage]; bit less Sneak Attack, but more skillpoints and you need only 1 Rogue-level to enter making you a better caster). For example, Concealment grants you immunity to critical hits and it's easy to acquire through spells. You can also gain auxillary senses through the same means (Blindsight, for example). And it handles the Rogue-crap. You wouldn't tank or buff too much, although Unseen Seer could be made a decent buffer with spell choices (as you can maintain full caster level with Practiced Spellcaster, and get full spells -1 level for the Rogue), but you'd definitely handle the arcane control and skills - and indeed Sneak Attacking if need be.