Swashbuckler-Ranger.. I know it´s weird, but what now?

[DrGonzo]

I'm currently playing a character who is swashbuckler3/ranger2. Yes I know it's weird, but the story goes somewhere along the lines that our town was raided by orcs, and as a human, I have a half orc half brother right now, and a serious grudge against orcs. Hence the two levels of ranger. Makes tracking and killing orcs a whole lot easier.

My scores are: Str 12, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 13

Feats: (1) Combat Expertise, Improved Feint (3) Two weapon fighting

Because I already chose two weapon fighting at lvl 3, I took the ranged fighting style. In melee I fight with Rapier and Kukri, ranged I have a mighty shortbow.

So the question now is: What do you guys think is a good option to choose for my next levels? More Swashbuckler or Ranger? Or maybe a prestige class?

Thanks for your input!

[overduegalaxy]

If you're going to keep taking levels of Swashbuckler, I'd suggest the Shield of Blades variant from PHB2, as it'll stack nicely with your TWF.

[PurinaDragonCho]

So the question now is: What do you guys think is a good option to choose for my next levels? More Swashbuckler or Ranger? Or maybe a prestige class?

Thanks for your input!

Maybe a few levels of fighter (for the feats) and then Tempest PrC?

[Animefunkmaster]

What books are available to you?

First thought:
Daring Outlaw Feat (Complete Scoundrel). Best thing to go with twf and finesse-able weapons is sneak attack.

Options to Help your Qualify:
-Rogue 3 (Nice to get evasion and skills)
-Fighter 1*/Sword Sage 2 (Grabs assassins stance and a host of maneuvers)
*can be anything full bab, fighter feat lets you gnab improved twf
*Another interesting option is lion spiritual totem barbarian 1 (Complete Champion: Pounce instead of fast movement) and the feat Neraph's Charge (Planar Handbook: Auto Flat Foots on a charge), which will give you a full round sneak attack on a charge.

Edit: One last thought on the barbarian. If you don't want to rage, if it doesn't fit the character, you can take a barbarian variant in the srd/UA that replaces rage with a favored enemy (as ranger).

[DrGonzo]

Available books: Core, PHB2, Complete Warrior, complete adventurer, quintessential ranger, complete scoundrel, dungeonscape, cityscape.

If you're going to keep taking levels of Swashbuckler, I'd suggest the Shield of Blades variant from PHB2, as it'll stack nicely with your TWF.

More Swashbuckler wasn't really an option at first, but the wall of blades is indeed a good alternative for the (in my opinion) sucky dodge thingy.

First thought:
Daring Outlaw Feat (Complete Scoundrel). Best thing to go with twf and finesse-able weapons is sneak attack.

The Daring Outlaw sounds good, since I'm in a party of three (the others being a cleric and a warblade), I already am the skillmonkey..

[KIDS]

Multiclassing as a Rogue and taking Daring Outlaw or as Scout and taking Swift Hunter seems a fine way to take your character in a direction that's a bit less "fighty" but more resourceful for all purposes. Both of these are feats from Complete Scoundrel.

[Person_Man]

Wow. Your build is just very, very bad. I spent a few minutes detailing how bad. But then I realized that it probably wasn't helpful, so I deleted it.

Suffice to say, more Ranger isn't a good option because a multiclass Ranger has a nerfed Animal Companion and casting (which is impossible for you anyway, with 10 Wis). More Swashbuckler would be even worse, because you essentially have 3 dead levels before you get to Acrobatic Charge, which is a pretty mediocre class ability anyway. And I can't think of any useful PrC that you qualify for, and I've read all of them.

Perhaps your DM would allow you to rebuild. If you could switch your Cha to Wis, a strait Ranger with access to the Spell Compendium wouldn't be horrible. A Daring Outlaw build is also serviceable.

What exactly is your build goal and books available?

[Animefunkmaster]

One thing to note on my options, fighter 1/sword sage 2 is multiclassing penalties (doh). So it would be fighter 2/swordsage 2 which takes some progression out of your final sneak attack and skill monkey abilities, but shouldn't be too bad for you.

Rogue 3 and then swashbuckler still seems like a good way to go.

Also, how many variants can we put on a barbarian before it is not a barbarian? If you did Lion Spiritual Totem (complete champion), Wolf Totem (UA/SRD) Variant Barbarian (UA/SRD)2 you would gain the following:

Pounce, Favored Enemy 1st, Combat Style (ranged, you already have this, it won't stack), Improved trip. Over those 2 levels (If I am reading this right and your dm doesn't mind you cramming the variants on). This could also be a good lead into sword sage 2.

Either way, you should be just fine.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Also, how many variants can we put on a barbarian before it is not a barbarian? If you did Lion Spiritual Totem (complete champion), Wolf Totem (UA/SRD) Variant Barbarian (UA/SRD)2 you would gain the following:

Pounce, Favored Enemy 1st, Combat Style (ranged, you already have this, it won't stack), Improved trip.

Not exactly on topic, but this is how I make my homebrew classes.

I trade in so many abilities that I turned Dragon Shaman into an arcane caster .

[DrGonzo]

Wow. Your build is just very, very bad. I spent a few minutes detailing how bad. But then I realized that it probably wasn't helpful, so I deleted it.

Suffice to say, more Ranger isn't a good option because a multiclass Ranger has a nerfed Animal Companion and casting (which is impossible for you anyway, with 10 Wis). More Swashbuckler would be even worse, because you essentially have 3 dead levels before you get to Acrobatic Charge, which is a pretty mediocre class ability anyway. And I can't think of any useful PrC that you qualify for, and I've read all of them.

Perhaps your DM would allow you to rebuild. If you could switch your Cha to Wis, a strait Ranger with access to the Spell Compendium wouldn't be horrible. A Daring Outlaw build is also serviceable.

What exactly is your build goal and books available?

Yes, I know I took swashbuckler the first three levels, but then my mother was raped by orcs, and I thought it was a good motivation to take a couple of levels of ranger. It was a roleplaying decision, not a "build" one.

I don´t want to rebuild my character, I like him the way he is. He used to be this friendly guy, with no worries on his mind. The series of "unfortunate" events made him go a little crazy, and he likes to work of the crazyness by killing here and there (preferrably orcs)

Build goal: somewhere along the lines of skill monkey/secondary fighter/looking cool while doing it.
Available books: See post #5

[Who_Da_Halfling]

There are two 3.0 prestige classes that may or may not have been converted to 3.5 that might interest you. The Foehunter is a favored enemy PrC that basically gives you a vendetta against that favored enemy. I can't remember the specific class abilities, and you probably wouldn't qualify yet, but thematically it works great (which is what it seems like you're going for). The Bloodhound is the other one that came to mind, although less so than the Foehunter. It gives you bonuses to tracking and hunting down a particular enemy. A focused Ranger could qualify at level 4, so probably a little while longer for you. And again, I don't know where or even if these were converted to 3.5, so they may not even be available to you, but I think they could work. They were in Masters of the Wild in 3.0.

I like the RP decision, btw, although possibly you should have looked for a class that offered something similar to favored enemy and meshed better with Swashbuckler. Is there even such a class? Ultimately unfortunate for your build btw that you'd already taken TWF so that the Ranger class ability wasn't helpful.

-JM

[Animefunkmaster]

Based on your books available, here is what I would do from here.

Swashbuckler 3/Ranger 2/Rogue 3*/Swashbuckler +11
*Dungeonscape variant Penetrating strike (deal half dice to subjects immune when you flank)

BAB: 18 (7 attacks)
Sneak Attack dice: 9d6

Feats:
Swashbuckler:Weapon Finesse
Human:Combat Expertise*
1)Improved Feint*
3)Two Weapon Fighting
Ranger: Rapidshot
6)Improved Two Weapon Fighting
9)Daring Outlaw
12)Greater Two Weapon Fighting
15)Free
18)Free

*Ask the DM about retraining these feats. They might be useful at this level. As time goes on Improved Fient becomes impossible to succeed at (your Bluff VS there Sense motive + BAB). Likewise Combat Expertise is good to pump your AC, but the cap at 5 isn't helping you much. If nothing else, retrain improved feint if possible.

The free feats gives you some options:
-Robilar's Gambit (PHB2) + Combat Reflexes (PHB)= you hit me I hit you.
-Dodge (pre req)>Mobility(pre req)>Elusive Target (CW)= good defensive feat
-Staggering Strike (CA)= Staggered is the same as disabled, limited to 1 standard or 1 move action for 1 round.
-Weaken the Heart (Dragon Mag): Really nasty feat. You hit someone with this at a range and bullrush or attempt to trip them a few times and they become exhausted.
-Quickdraw- tough thing about changing weapons is the actions it takes.
-Quick Reconnoiter (CA)+ Spot the weak point (CS, skill trick)- a nice feat to throw in if your out of ideas, much better than feinting, but without the sneak attack damage.
-Improved Initiative (PHB)= Always a good feat, first round of combat get to sneak attack without having to flank.

I would really try to retrain improved feint to quickdraw, and I would take Staggering strike and Weaken the Heart otherwise. The build is kind of Vanilla, and is more warrior than skill monkey, but is a real team player with flanking and debuffs.

Tactics:
Use Magic Device! Get some ranks in it. It might be the best reason to take more rogue (you will lose weakening critical, and some bab, hp). Even first level spells like grease plus a sneak attack with weaken the heart can make an enemy exhausted and useless for the rest of combat. That tactic can be set up at a range too. (Greater) Invisibility is your friend for sneak attacks, and a variety of spells in wand form can help your skills. Spells are going to be your friend. It makes good use of your charisma.

Nets: you aren't proficient (-4 boo) with them but you can throw them as a touch attack and they are a cheap debuff (also reusable), good way to use rapidshot during a full round (assuming quick draw). IMO, better than a tanglefoot bag (reusable). Grab a hold of the end to make the enemy need a strength check (which tigers weaken the heart) and debuff away. Hitting the enemy with staggering strike while they are net-ed is just mean. They get a single action, and you can re-net them afterward and stagger them.

Thrown Weapons: If you have a chance to do a full round but not in melee, grab some thrown weapons and let them fly (even without prof, shuriken, can prove there usefulness as ammunition, free action to grab, if you don't have quickdraw). You do a healthy amount of damage and you don't want to miss your opportunity to drop someone quickly.

Improved flanking should help you land a full round sneak attack (use at least one of those attacks for a staggering strike and the opponent can't full round you back). Flank and flank often. Your full round attack should be pretty nasty doing almost full rogue sneak attack damage + your int (which you should continue to buff for skills).

Spell storing arrows: by raw this isn't going to work (nothing that say it works anyway), but the dm might allow it. Have the local caster cast the last few of there spells per day in some of your arrows. Keep those arrows handy and the next time you need to do ranged combat you can kick it up a notch with special arrows.

Anyway, that's not necessarily game breaking, but it should prove useful.

Edit: Should you want more feats you can turn in two levels of swash (those are good levels though, makes your crits better and taking 10 on various acrobatic skills, and 1d6 sneak attack, skill points) for 2 fighter levels (might be worth it, your feats are mostly preoccupied with twf in my progression).

[Zherog]

Given your stated goal, my advice (which, I'll admit, isn't the most optimized) would be to start taking rogue levels. You'll have plenty of skills (and be able to afford spending cross-class ranks on Survival; alternately, grab the Able Learner feat). After you have three levels of rogue (I think that's what you need), be sure to grab Daring Outlaw so your rogue and swashbuckler levels stack for determining a few things, including sneak attack. Continue taking feats in the Two-Weapon Fighting tree, to continue to pump out your number of attacks per round.

With rogue levels, you'll be getting 12 skill points per level. That should be more than enough to allow you to fill the "skill monkey" role you're seeking, and I think the sneak attack will help make your damage output a bit more viable - especially once you get Daring Outlaw.

Talk to your DM to see how soon you can arrange to get orc-bane weapons for added damage.

Continue to roleplay your racial hatred. That's certainly some great development.

[paigeoliver]

You seem to be missing your human bonus feat.

[Os1ris09]

Based on your books available, here is what I would do from here.

Swashbuckler 3/Ranger 2/Rogue 3*/Swashbuckler +11
*Dungeonscape variant Penetrating strike (deal half dice to subjects immune when you flank)

BAB: 18 (7 attacks)
Sneak Attack dice: 9d6

Feats:
Swashbuckler:Weapon Finesse
Human:Combat Expertise*
1)Improved Feint*
3)Two Weapon Fighting
Ranger: Rapidshot
6)Improved Two Weapon Fighting
9)Daring Outlaw
12)Greater Two Weapon Fighting
15)Free
18)Free

*Ask the DM about retraining these feats. They might be useful at this level. As time goes on Improved Fient becomes impossible to succeed at (your Bluff VS there Sense motive + BAB). Likewise Combat Expertise is good to pump your AC, but the cap at 5 isn't helping you much. If nothing else, retrain improved feint if possible.

The free feats gives you some options:
-Robilar's Gambit (PHB2) + Combat Reflexes (PHB)= you hit me I hit you.
-Dodge (pre req)>Mobility(pre req)>Elusive Target (CW)= good defensive feat
-Staggering Strike (CA)= Staggered is the same as disabled, limited to 1 standard or 1 move action for 1 round.
-Weaken the Heart (Dragon Mag): Really nasty feat. You hit someone with this at a range and bullrush or attempt to trip them a few times and they become exhausted.
-Quickdraw- tough thing about changing weapons is the actions it takes.
-Quick Reconnoiter (CA)+ Spot the weak point (CS, skill trick)- a nice feat to throw in if your out of ideas, much better than feinting, but without the sneak attack damage.
-Improved Initiative (PHB)= Always a good feat, first round of combat get to sneak attack without having to flank.

I would really try to retrain improved feint to quickdraw, and I would take Staggering strike and Weaken the Heart otherwise. The build is kind of Vanilla, and is more warrior than skill monkey, but is a real team player with flanking and debuffs.

Tactics:
Use Magic Device! Get some ranks in it. It might be the best reason to take more rogue (you will lose weakening critical, and some bab, hp). Even first level spells like grease plus a sneak attack with weaken the heart can make an enemy exhausted and useless for the rest of combat. That tactic can be set up at a range too. (Greater) Invisibility is your friend for sneak attacks, and a variety of spells in wand form can help your skills. Spells are going to be your friend. It makes good use of your charisma.

Nets: you aren't proficient (-4 boo) with them but you can throw them as a touch attack and they are a cheap debuff (also reusable), good way to use rapidshot during a full round (assuming quick draw). IMO, better than a tanglefoot bag (reusable). Grab a hold of the end to make the enemy need a strength check (which tigers weaken the heart) and debuff away. Hitting the enemy with staggering strike while they are net-ed is just mean. They get a single action, and you can re-net them afterward and stagger them.

Thrown Weapons: If you have a chance to do a full round but not in melee, grab some thrown weapons and let them fly (even without prof, shuriken, can prove there usefulness as ammunition, free action to grab, if you don't have quickdraw). You do a healthy amount of damage and you don't want to miss your opportunity to drop someone quickly.

Improved flanking should help you land a full round sneak attack (use at least one of those attacks for a staggering strike and the opponent can't full round you back). Flank and flank often. Your full round attack should be pretty nasty doing almost full rogue sneak attack damage + your int (which you should continue to buff for skills).

Spell storing arrows: by raw this isn't going to work (nothing that say it works anyway), but the dm might allow it. Have the local caster cast the last few of there spells per day in some of your arrows. Keep those arrows handy and the next time you need to do ranged combat you can kick it up a notch with special arrows.

Anyway, that's not necessarily game breaking, but it should prove useful.

Edit: Should you want more feats you can turn in two levels of swash (those are good levels though, makes your crits better and taking 10 on various acrobatic skills, and 1d6 sneak attack, skill points) for 2 fighter levels (might be worth it, your feats are mostly preoccupied with twf in my progression).

LOL its funny because I had a similar post on how to make a ranger. Look for ranger help or something along those lines as a thread in these forums. But my build looked similar to his except I didnt take rogue I took scout and swift hunter. these stack for skirmish d6's and AC/ Favored enemy bonus's (aka more ORC damage and the like perfect to help your role playing side.) The swashbuckler is a good strategy too but see if your dm will let you take the darkwood stalker prestige class and not be an elf/half elf. It focus's mainly on killing orc's I believe. Since you already got track as a bonus feat from Ranger all you need is spend a feat on Dodge. The bonus's against orcs are great and you get a special death attack at LVL 10 darkwood stalker but only against orcs (once again going off your roleplaying side)

[DrGonzo]

I think I'll go for the three levels of rogue, and indeed take the Daring Outlaw Feat. And I'll try retraining Improved Feint, that won't be too big of a problem.

Thanks you guys for the help!

[Person_Man]

So is there a reason you can't just retrain to be a strait Ranger, and buy an amulet to increase your Wis by a few points so you can cast spells? It's the Swash levels which are really killing you here. A a pure Ranger fits perfectly into your hatred of orcs and desire to track them down.