OOTS #637 - The Discussion Thread

[RebelRogue]

I take this as confirmation of Sabine being LE, too! The Giant's Evil Outsiders we've seen so far work slightly different from the MM anyway.

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If I was the Dragon, I'd take a deep breath and acid breath her family before V had a chance to finish me off.... (monologuing... never a good thing )

That's what I've been thinking too!

[hamishspence]

well, occasionally, even normal D&D breaks the silver/cold iron principle (Carnage Demons in MM V have DR/silver) So, not entirely implausible.

Also, demon/devil/yugoloth alliance has been done before- Malkizid and House Dlardrageth, in Faerun, so maybe Sabine's alignment does not match her boss's.

[Pheldagriff]

I still hope/fear/expect that V's mate and children die next strip

I want the dragon to live, but I don't see that coming.

[JoseB]

Oh dear me.

V is allowing himself to be influenced by the evil souls inside. That's bad with a capital BAD.

Pratchett wrote, in "Men At Arms": "The evil like power... they will talk, they will gloat. ... A good man will kill you with hardly a word".

V is going to fixate on torturing the black dragon and likely is going to forget that his family, whom he was supposed to be rescuing, is there >.<

Agh.

Just my 2 eurocent!

[Evaine]

I'm mainly concerned about what effect V's bad self is going to have on his/her relationship with the mate and little ones. I'm going to guess that V's mate will be able to understand what V is saying and confront him/her about it. If V doesn't repent the evil influence and let go of the soul splice, I'm guessing his/her mate will try to keep V away from the kids.

[SpitFire]

You know, I’ve only registered to put a commentary or two. I don’t usually see reasons to comment here, since I see OotS as entertaining and funny, but don’t producing any special emotional response from my side. But there are some exceptions.
This last strip makes an impression. This “he mewled helplessly while I did so” replica in any other context would be just a random gloat of a fiction genre. But here it fills almost sadistic, giving shivering (since V actually executed helpless teenage prisoner in quite a cruel way, right?).
It is totally worthy to read OotS for such emotional moments (I’ve also enjoyed critical moments before Belkar’s restoration as well).

p.s.
Also, I hope I don’t mess with English too badly in this post.

[motub]

If V doesn't repent the evil influence and let go of the soul splice, I'm guessing his/her mate will try to keep V away from the kids.

That assumes that the mate and kids are going to live beyond the next strip (or indeed the third panel of the next strip), which is by no means assured, since V has broken the first rule of self-defense (or defense of others), which is get away (or, "get the defenseless potential victims that you are defending away") from the attacker. As well as the second rule, which is, if the attacker is armed, disarm/disable the attacker and get away (or get the defenseless potential victims away/enable them to get away).

The potential victims are still right there, the attacker is still armed, and the potential victims are still in range of the attacker's weapon(s) (since claws count too).

And V is going out of hir way to enrage the attacker.

No, I wouldn't assume that V's mate is going to have the opportunity to get a restraining order, not at all......

[hamishspence]

V's statement might not be a total lie- the young black dragon did appear dizzied and saying something that could be claimed to be "mewling helplessly" : "The wheels on the bus go round and round"

[Tyrmatt]

V's statement might not be a total lie- the young black dragon did appear dizzied and saying something that could be claimed to be "mewling helplessly" : "The wheels on the bus go round and round"

I suppose we should have taken that as read a long time ago as an indicator of the dragon's age...

I worry when the Giant reveals something big like this, in this case Sabine's type (and technically, alignment). It means something even bigger and more worrying is about to take place...

[hamishspence]

The evidence they had of it being Young Adult- comics. Maybe, the dragon was at the bottom end- aged 50-odd, both childish and teenager-ish.

(or maybe they were leftovers from when father dragon was still alive. After all, the hoard was not, it turns out, the young-dragon's anyway, but belonged to the parents.)

[The Minx]

So we get much of our assumptions confirmed. The fiends did first learn of the gate from Sabine, who is still of uncertain alignment since she is working under LE Lee, but is confirmed as a succubus.

At least we know what fiendish race she is now. Though most arguments were leaning towards succubus already (bat wings, sex-fiend, manipulator not warrior, etc). Also, Yellow Fiend = Lee, which means he has the Chaotic seeming sorcerer-archmage. It's possible that Lee, Nero and Cedric simply pool at least some of their resources as needed rather than always commanding creatures of their respective alignments too.

They have been watching V and the rest of the gang apparently. Presumably they are also looking in on Greysky City.
The fiend’s plan is confirmed as crazy. The dragon survived the disintegrate.

Plan is crazy? Lol? They're almost certainly looking to obtain the gates, is that what you mean?

Now V’s comments are distinctly troubling. The good can, and must, kill, but it is a necessity, not something to enjoy, much less to prolong and make more painful for the [deserving] victim. Mama should be dispatched quickly and efficiently, not tortured and having her wounds rubbed raw.

It has been suggested that V may alienate his family (and friends). Killing the dragon won't do that, but acting evil may do so. This is the beginning of that I guess. :(

[Zerg Cookie]

I don't want V to kill the ABD with a disintegrate, the ABD should get a dramatic last-act-before-death and kill V's family


Think about it, it would be totally climatic and awesome

[Undead Prince]

V has broken the first rule of self-defense (or defense of others), which is get away from the attacker. As well as the second rule, which is, if the attacker is armed, disarm/disable the attacker and get away.

What sort of a rule is that? If you get away, you haven't actually defended anyone, you just ran. If you "disarm" the attacker and "get away", instead of apprehending him and calling the police, he is left free to attack again.

V was perfectly right in taking the fight to the enemy. He kills the attacker, soulbinds/destroys her soul, and thus resolves the problem for good while also getting some therapeutic gloating (gods know he needs it now, what with his bruised ego). My opinion: Hold/Paralyze/Stun the Dragon (any number of spells can do it), and slowly roast her to death with Disintegrates. Then, Soul Bind her soul (again ironic!) and be free to gloat over it for eternity.

The dragon killing the kids is no problem at all. Greater Teleport, Dominate nearest high-lvl Cleric (Durkon, or Scry to find another one) = Raise Dead/Resurrection. Programmed Amnesia to replace the nasty business with memories of good/kind V bringing cookies.

No, I wouldn't assume that V's mate is going to have the opportunity to get a restraining order, not at all...

A restraining order as gratitude for arriving in the nick of time and saving the mate and the kids from a gruesome death + eternal imprisonment? Now that's some majorly skewed perception of how personal relationships work. Also... getting on the bad side of someone who just effortlessly roasted an ABD while gloating about killing her spawn? Not smart.

Beyond the fact that there's no one except deities/archfiends who could restrain V at this point.

My main concern here is that V has not learned his/her lesson. This dragon undoubtedly has older and more powerful relatives, too.

Black dragons per se don't come much tougher than the ABD. Even a Great Wyrm is not a threat to Gestalt V.

However, someone like Tiamat could definitely put a dent in V's mettle 8=)) And that would have been deliciously ironic - V selling his soul to the fiends just to repeat the old mistake and fall prey to a more powerful entity 8=)) However, it would also have been a rather clumsy Deus ex Machina. Regular adventurers do not invoke wrath of Gods for doing some dragonslaying.

I take this as confirmation of Sabine being LE, too!

The entire schtick of IFCC is making fiends of different alignment work together. Sabine is a Succubus, and thus Chaotic Evil (which is, BTW, supported by her promiscuity), but she may work under any of the Directors regardless of their alignment, and may be sent to consort with Lawful Evil Nale to further the general cause of Evil.

The Directors may also have chosen aliases reflecting alignments other than their own, as a symbol of synergy and devotion to the IFCC idea. So the Demon became Lee, the Yugoloth - Cedrick and the Devil - Nero.

On the comic itself: nice exposition-wise, but seriously overloaded with talking. EvilV's first two strips were wonderfully concise. His "evil" speech in this one goes over the top, IMHO, and threatens to land him in "Stupid Evil" territory.

Then again, it might be due to V's natural long-windedness. In which case it's more understandable, but still detracts from the atmosphere of doom which the two preceding comics have set up with such style.

[altruist]

As I expected, the ABD survived the first shot. V is acting deliciously evil.

Now the only question is whether the ABD will do something to harm the family, or whether they will survive but have their relationship with V irreparably harmed.

I kind of suspect that V's family will survive, or be brought back at some point if they don't. It's too important of a plot point.

What worries me though, is V's reply to a drunken Sabine complaining about Nale. "Well, let me simply say that were I to return home to find my mate in the arms of another elf, I would employ every shred of my not inconsiderable arcane power to fight for my love." And if V is still spliced, and something like that happened, I doubt he would try a Diplomacy check.

V would rather be indebted to fiends than to his master or to his friends. And that's the neutral V.

[Assassin89]

As would be said by the other fiends, "pass the popcorn, this is getting interesting". Nice poke at reality television within the comic.

[LM TR]

evil V rules! my highlight in the past 100 strips...

[Iranon]

Self-defence rules don't apply. In socities that have them, it is assumed that there are professionals who can deal with your grievances more fairly and efficiently than you can yourself. Despite the limitations of law enforcement, I
d say that's generally the case... unlike in great parts of most D&D settings.
Also, a few real-life countries allow you to defend your property with lethal force, let alone your family.

V's taunts aren't true (the young dragon died confused but hardly mewling)... and maybe not gratuitious. Causing emotional suffering might not be nice, but this is fricking life-or-death-or-worse battle. Taking care not to offend the sensibilities of the opponent would be a noble thing to do... but heck, Roy is fond of vicious trash-talking and he's someone who actually cares about being Good.

Is it a good idea to really get mommy even more angry? No idea, but it might be.

[hajo]

I have a bad feeling about how V's family is going to react to hearing their momdad gloat about the manner in which the young dragon died.

Yes, I also think it is unwise on V's part to prolong this affair.

It gives the ABD a chance to act, it uses more time on the soul-splice, and it makes a bad impression to the family.

[hamishspence]

the "you have right to use force only in defense- retaliation must be left to authorities" argument tends to be based on principle that no society can hold together if people are their own law enforcement.

[Sutremaine]

Fiend: The "HD" stands for "Hell-Damned".
Vaarsuvius: Incidentally, he mewled helplessly while I did so.

I really shouldn't laugh, but that is some well-done juxtaposition. We know she's damned anyway due to the terms of the Soul Splice, but this moves it away from technically damned to the more traditional meaning of the word.

Little elf, you're going to Hell!

[delguidance]

If the story was going to switch P.O.V. I thought'd be back to someone else in the order or Redcloak & co. Following the mysterious evil outsiders took me by surprise. It kind of interupted the flow of emotional involvement in following V's story. I'd have edited these interesting reveals into a place after the battle.

Regardless I like having a character with some perspective like Qarr around. His insights and deconstruction of others actually remind me of how Roy would be sometimes.

[Nenec]

Finally I can manage to reply!
Geeeeeeeez I'm hating V so much right now! More than ever!

[Dark Wolf]

I assume they eat pop-Khorne on evil planes.

[2xMachina]

V should create a spell. Time stop when caster is doing nothing but talking. Considering her long windedness, this would be very helpful in fixing that flaw. (I could see Dm's using this for their BBEG monologues. "No interrupting the speech I prepared")

Then (s)he can cast, Power paragraph: Sleep at will. Maybe a Power Paragraph: Insanity, and Death by boredom as well.

THEN, (s)he can gloat all she wants.

I wonder if V can finish the ABD off?

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It'll be funny/ironic if it's finished with a Disintegrate and a Quickened Disintegrate the next round. Though maybe let the ABD win initiative

[Fireballing_Fun]

Finally I can manage to reply!
Geeeeeeeez I'm hating V so much right now! More than ever!

Are you kidding he rocks, he just delivered the best line of the entire series.

YAY for evil V... sadly all good things, sorry all evil things have to come to end sooner or later. But I like to think V will never be quite the same. MUHAHAHAHA!!!

[allenw]

That assumes that the mate and kids are going to live beyond the next strip (or indeed the third panel of the next strip), which is by no means assured, since V has broken the first rule of self-defense (or defense of others), which is get away from the attacker. As well as the second rule, which is, if the attacker is armed, disarm/disable the attacker and get away.

What sort of a rule is that? If you get away, you haven't actually defended anyone, you just ran. If you "disarm" the attacker and "get away", instead of apprehending him and calling the police, he is left free to attack again.

Rule, no, more of a guideline. And the assumption is that the defender and all the defendees get away, or perhaps in this case draw the attacker away from the defendees. If you or the imperiled persons are hurt or killed, what's the point?

The point of real-world self-defense is a justification or necessity defense -- the defender gets to use whatever force is reasonably necessary to protect innocent life (his/hers/the imperiled other's) from unlawful force. Under the law in about 1/2 of the American states, if one can retreat safely (and one isn't in one's own home), then the law doesn't think it is necessary to use force at that point. In the rest of the states, one can stand one's ground, but retreat is still a good tactical decision.

Run away is a great option -- in the real world, police are trained to hold people at gunpoint, secure them, and arrest them. And this is dangerous -- getting close enough to someone to arrest them if they don't want to be arrested can get an officer badly hurt or killed. Most non-police don't have the training or equipment to hold somebody at gunpoint or restrain them until the police do show up. (Assuming one has already made or can make the 911 call.)

V's situation is different. There probably isn't anyone within a reasonable distance that could "arrest" the dragon, or could safely imprison it for any meaningful time, even if V had the patience for another trial. The elvin rulers likely won't mind V killing the dragon, particularly where a stalemate likely means the dragon just comes back again later. So run away is not a great option, and apprehend/arrest/turn the problem over to others isn't a great option either.

V's family is not mobile, so best tactics would be to lure the dragon after V -- which may mean that it is a fine idea for V to piss it off and keep it focused just on hir. If V's motive is at least partly to keep the dragon focused on hir, the it may be a neutral act. In context, tho, it does seem like evil gloating and is likely not good for V's relationship with hir family.

[Estelindis]

I guess near-ultimate power corrupts nearly absolutely - especially when it's taken up for all the wrong reasons. V doesn't need to gloat (and even lie - I don't recall any mewling from the young adult black dragon) in order to do what s/he has to do. This is one face of V that I really don't like.

Which isn't to avoid saying "excellent comic," because it is excellent. But V's worrying me!

[otakuryoga]

I find it relieving that the Fiends actually decided to get meaningful employment for the little imp. It can't be easy for a damned creature to find a steady vacancy in the current market.

actually this would be a buyers market for Quarr...fear of losing car/home/family makes people do desperate things

[motub]

What sort of a rule is that? If you get away, you haven't actually defended anyone, you just ran. If you "disarm" the attacker and "get away", instead of apprehending him and calling the police, he is left free to attack again.

Sorry, I misspoke, apparently.

The first rule of self-defense is: get away from your attacker.

The adaptation of that rule as regards the defense of the defenseless would be: Get those defenseless others away from the attacker.

I mean, geez, I thought the point was clear when I mentioned that the potential victims are still within weapons range of the attacker, who is now (even more) furious and therefore even more likely to swipe them dead with the wave of a ... paw? is it? or just clawed foot, whatever.

If the attacker must be killed to enable the defenseless to get away, then fine, kill the attacker, but monologuing (with intent to enrage) is really right out while the defenseless are still able to be injured or killed.

The dragon killing the kids is no problem at all. Greater Teleport, Dominate nearest high-lvl Cleric (Durkon, or Scry to find another one) = Raise Dead/Resurrection. Programmed Amnesia to replace the nasty business with memories of good/kind V bringing cookies.

Oooooooh kay....if you think that is "no problem" as opposed to preventing them from being killed in the first place..... I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Sorry about the bad edit; fixed).

[otakuryoga]

I assume they eat pop-Khorne on evil planes.

sorry, thats a completely different genre and system