Why are Mindflayers Evil?

[The Neoclassic]

Why are assassins evil? Why are vampires evil? Well, here's the next logical step: Why do mindflayers have to be evil? Granted, there's probably some serious psychological and biological rationale, but there must be a way around that!

[Shades of Gray]

I distinctly remember talk about a group of LG Mind Flayers who survive off a tamed Hydra's regenerating brains.

[alexeduardo]

but there must be a way around that!

Suddenly, the image of a mindflayer with intricate clockwork machinery in his head to such a level that he's rendered wise but paralytic springs to Alexeduardo's mind.

Keep Talking

[Gorbash]

I distinctly remember talk about a group of LG Mind Flayers who survive off a tamed Hydra's regenerating brains.

Well, I don't see how's that Lawful Good. It'd be good, only if Hydra allowed it, but since it has Int 2, that's torture. Not to mention Hydras actually don't have Regeneration but Fast Healing, so they don't regrow brains once they're eaten.

[The Neoclassic]

Well, I don't see how's that Lawful Good. It'd be good, only if Hydra allowed it, but since it has Int 2, that's torture. Not to mention Hydras actually don't have Regeneration but Fast Healing, so they don't regrow brains once they're eaten.

Hmm, what if there was a way to numb/eliminate the pain and the hydras did in fact have regeneration?

[Yukitsu]

Mindflayers eat the brains of sentient creatures, and seek to enslave a bunch of other races. Since their economy relies on eating brains of relatively self aware creatures, they tend to kidnap and murder people. They don't find ways around this because the elder brains, which are all evil for ancient and arbitrary reasons are evil, and each and every mind flayer is psychically connected to their elder brain. Any non-lawful evil mental workings gets them executed in mindflayer societies.

They go into more detail in lords of madness, but this is mostly why mind flayers are evil.

[Dacia Brabant]

Didn't we already have this discussion?

You can come up with all the wacky ways to get around what they have to do as a species in order to live, but the question is: why would a Mind Flayer want to change in the first place?

[Flickerdart]

Well, I don't see how's that Lawful Good. It'd be good, only if Hydra allowed it, but since it has Int 2, that's torture. Not to mention Hydras actually don't have Regeneration but Fast Healing, so they don't regrow brains once they're eaten.

1. Behead.
2. Eat brain of beheaded head.
3. 2 heads grow back.
4. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Unless 3.5 hydras don't regrow heads anymore, which is dumb.

[Dixieboy]

1. Behead.
2. Eat brain of beheaded head.
3. 2 heads grow back.
4. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Unless 3.5 hydras don't regrow heads anymore, which is dumb.

Not only is it dumb but it makes it no longer a hydra, that was sort of the thing that made the hydra unique when compared to other big lizards

[Innis Cabal]

Well, I don't see how's that Lawful Good. It'd be good, only if Hydra allowed it, but since it has Int 2, that's torture.

Its just like eating a normal animal....so how is it torture? Its just an alien way of gaining a food suppy...which would sort of be in line with them being abberations.

As to why they are evil. They willfully and maliciously capture creatures to test their magics and sciences on. Plot multi-versal domination(Again), and their very method of reproduction casts them as evil.

[The Neoclassic]

They willfully and maliciously capture creatures to test their magics and sciences on. Plot multi-versal domination(Again)

Yes, but it's not too hard to imagine a few mindflayers who reject those things or leave such an evil society.

and their very method of reproduction casts them as evil.

Remind me how they reproduce? Does it have to involve the destruction of alive, intelligent creatures or is there a way around it?

[Knaight]

They still grow heads. Hence the order of the stick comic where they got the hydra to the point where it passed out from having too many heads(that can't happen, but the heads thing does). They need heads regrowing, its totally key.

[Draken]

According to Lord's of Madness, there is a miriad of reasons. First of all, the need to eat brains, the mind flayers don't need to eat sentient brains. Any brain works. But mind flayers treat the memories in the brain as the flavour. As such, animal brains, simply put, taste bad. While adventurer brains are like the finest dish one can find. Thus, they are evil because they choose to eat sentient beings when they could, in fact, not.

Next. We have the ilithid mindset. Ilithids are described as creatures prone to strong emotions. But all their emotions are negative. They hate, they envy, they despise, they feel superior. They have no compassion, they develop no friendiship or attachment. The closest to a positive emotion they have is a sense of joy atained when eating a brain.

Truth be said, what makes then evil, as far as the books say, is their mindset. Everything else steems from that, they are byologically evil, to the core.

[JoshuaZ]

This is related to one of my fundamental objections to the alignment system: It makes a necessarily human centric universe.

If one wants to plausibly have mindflayers and beholders and aboleths and other terrible horrors that make humans completely pitiful and insignificant in comparison then an alignment system that has real effects on the way the universe functions and that reflects human morality doesn't make any sense. Such a system only makes sense if human-like creatures really are important.

[Yukitsu]

Yes, but it's not too hard to imagine a few mindflayers who reject those things or leave such an evil society.

Those that intend to do so are killed by the elder brain without exception. Assuming some do so, and somehow survive is almost unfathomable.

Remind me how they reproduce? Does it have to involve the destruction of alive, intelligent creatures or is there a way around it?

Ceremorphosis. They implant one of their larva into the ear of a still living humanoid. They must be human, elven (drow), githyanki, githzerai, and a few others that I can't remember for the process to work. The person's brain is eaten by the larva over a week or something, before the larva takes over the bodily functions and replaces the tissues with their own, forming an adult illithid.

[Krytha]

Ceremorphosis. They implant one of their larva into the ear of a still living humanoid. They must be human, elven (drow), githyanki, githzerai, and a few others that I can't remember for the process to work. The person's brain is eaten by the larva over a week or something, before the larva takes over the bodily functions and replaces the tissues with their own, forming an adult illithid.

I wonder how that evolved...

At least you dont feel any pain once it gets hungry!

[Yukitsu]

I wonder how that evolved...

At least you dont feel any pain once it gets hungry!

It takes around a half a day to die from the process.

The aberations didn't evolve per se. All aberations came from the far realm, and do not fit into any ecological niche.

[OldTrees]

If I remember correctly, The Illithids evolve in the semi near future. Then they build their empire. Then they travel back in time to escape the revolution. From there it could be that they replace the abberation that would evolve into them. If this is the case then they never evolved they just are.

[NPCMook]

Oh no, you are going to feel immense pain.

First the Larva is going to break your skull open and shatter your ear drum, then its going to begin devouring your brain, most likely going for the motor skills first to keep you from clawing it out, or smashing your own head open and then you will begin to lose your memories that you once held dear. Perhaps this is why Mind Flayers are so Evil, the first Mind Flayer went insane with pain, and so he wanted all others to feel his pain

[Draken]

It takes around a half a day to die from the process.

The aberations didn't evolve per se. All aberations came from the far realm, and do not fit into any ecological niche.

Not really.

Aberrations share a creature kind for the rules, but given biological classification, each one would stand out as it's own group. Also, very few aberrations actually hail form the Far Realm.

Aboleths: Material entities. Hail from the very beggining of creation, predating the gods themselves.

Ilithids: Material entities. Hail form the future. Their species hasn't even evolved yet.

Beholders: Material entities. Created by insane deity that resides in the Abyss.

Neogi, Grell and Tsochar are creatures from other planets in the material plane, as far as their descriptions go. They don't fit because they don't belong. It's like taking a species from a continent and implanting it on another, it leads to great ambiental damage.

[The Neoclassic]

Those that intend to do so are killed by the elder brain without exception. Assuming some do so, and somehow survive is almost unfathomable.

Ceremorphosis. They implant one of their larva into the ear of a still living humanoid. They must be human, elven (drow), githyanki, githzerai, and a few others that I can't remember for the process to work. The person's brain is eaten by the larva over a week or something, before the larva takes over the bodily functions and replaces the tissues with their own, forming an adult illithid.

So... Nonevil mindflayers are possible in theory, just not going to be able to survive in practicality given the Elder Brain? Also, they could just choose not to reproduce.

[Innis Cabal]

Remind me how they reproduce? Does it have to involve the destruction of alive, intelligent creatures or is there a way around it?

Like others have said....they feed off of huminoid creatures and use them to breed.

[Dixieboy]

So... Nonevil mindflayers are possible in theory, just not going to be able to survive in practicality given the Elder Brain? Also, they could just choose not to reproduce.

No not only due to the elder brain, they NEED to eat them brains, also they are born out of a ritual involving the replacement of the nerve system of a helpless sentient being while it is still alive, feeling as it's brain is slowly eaten away by a tadpole that will soon take over it's body.

Would you starve yourself to death just so squids could live?
That is what a good Mind flayer would be doing, we are just as alien to them as squids are to us.

[Gorbash]

Its just like eating a normal animal....so how is it torture?

Because you eat it while it's alive?

[Mikeavelli]

If I remember correctly, The Illithids evolve in the semi near future. Then they build their empire. Then they travel back in time to escape the revolution. From there it could be that they replace the abberation that would evolve into them. If this is the case then they never evolved they just are.

That was the Lords of Madness explanation, and I always hated it.

The other explanations include:

One from when they first came out with the Far Realm stuff, they detailed one expedition where an unfortunate adventurer got infected with something while he was in the Far Realm, and underwent ceremorphesis because of it, implying that Illithid larvae exist in the Far Realm naturally, and crossed over into this realm by the same process sometime far back in the annals of time.

One where they're just Ancient, a form of life that existed before the current order of things, sort of like Aboleths They were the "humans" back in the day, with a planes-spanning empire and everything in existence centered around them. They've never forgotten this, or lost this attitude, even though they're now relegated to bit players in the grand scheme of things.

The Gith rebelliion and subsequent fall of the Illithid empire was actually the beginning of the current order of things. Some day, in the far future, humanity itself will fall, and live out the rest of its days as small collections of fearsomely powerful individuals lurking at the edges of whatever society springs up after them.

[Karma Guard]

This is related to one of my fundamental objections to the alignment system: It makes a necessarily human centric universe.

If one wants to plausibly have mindflayers and beholders and aboleths and other terrible horrors that make humans completely pitiful and insignificant in comparison then an alignment system that has real effects on the way the universe functions and that reflects human morality doesn't make any sense. Such a system only makes sense if human-like creatures really are important.

What?

What does this have to do with 'creatures that live off eating sentient beings' brains and reproduce by horribly murdering other ones not to mention the whole enslavement thing' being evil (or not)?

Humanoids ARE important. They're everywhere. They're the roaches of the planes (prove me wrong <( ._.)> ). You just can't get rid of the buggers.

[Dixieboy]

What?

What does this have to do with 'creatures that live off eating sentient beings' brains and reproduce by horribly murdering other ones not to mention the whole enslavement thing' being evil (or not)?

Humanoids ARE important. They're everywhere. They're the roaches of the planes (prove me wrong <( ._.)> ). You just can't get rid of the buggers.

You could, but seeing as all the gods are humanoid...

[Fjolnir]

The mind flayers(and other various abominations) are evil according to the other sentient races, due to whatever machinations put them in the material plane they at various points saw themselves at the top of the food chain (both beholders and mind flayers had multiplanar empires) but due to the actions of beings they consider little more than slightly smarter monkeys (remember they're among the most intelligent base beings out there) they're no longer on top and now the VERMIN are running the show. Add to that the fact that they perform actions that are rather repulsive as part of their basic lifecycle (Ceremorphosis, brain eating, etc) and that they are beholden to their elder brains (basically they have a psychic link to ever mind flayer for miles) and most of them are evil (from a humanoid standpoint)you see the "mindflayers are evil" argument

also doesn't Ceremorphosis cause half illithids if the creature isn't a human, elf or drow?

you could do the whole "LG elder brain makes his city feed off large animals and only implant tadpoles in the willing" thing, but as twilight proved, that's fairly lame

[Skaven]

You could, but seeing as all the gods are humanoid...

Not all.

Some are Dragons.

I -think- there are some that have animal shape too.

[Belobog]

You could, but seeing as all the gods are humanoid...

And look at how many of those are around.

But yeah, Illithids are pretty much Made To Go Evil. From the 'only negative emotions' to 'bodily and mental terrors' to 'impossible to assail strongholds to challenge the best of the best', these guys are built for times when you want to throw something big and complicated at a group. I mean, the Elder Brain running the show thinks of its Illithid fellows like Illithids think of humanoids; while they're busy worshiping it, and it's busy egging them on about how perfect their minds will be when they're included into its make-up after death, it's really only waiting for their sweet, succulent brains. Screams straight up Evil society to me.

Also, I think Ceremorphosis is applicable to anything with a sapient (by DnD standards, an Int of 3) brain, as the Illithid Roper can attest to. What will happen when you toss a tadpole inside a Griffon, though, there's no telling. It makes me wonder how it works with aberrations...could there be Illithid Aboleths?

As for their origins, I'm quite partial to the 'Threat from the future past' deal, but only because of the idea of an existence loop; evolving in the future, and then escaping into the past, only to die there. Poetic, in a way.