Abusing lie detection magic

[hamishspence]

If spells like Zone of Truth, or 2nd ed's Detect Lie, detect the factuality of a statement, whether or not the speaker is aware of it being true or untrue, or believes (or disbelieves) it, then this can be used to get info that reallly shouldn't be that available.

Player makes statements about things he wants to know "King Zander is good" "King Zander is evil" etc, and the person using the detect (or zone) spell deduces from the results, what the alignment of the king is. Even if they're only heard of him, never met him, and he's half a continent away.

If the future is treated as set, it can gain even more info "Xykon will go to Kraagor's gate next- FALSE" and so on.

so, how should lie detection be handled if players start to use it this way?

[GoC]

"This Turing Machine halts."

Alternatively, this classic combination:
What I say next will be a lie.
What I said previously is the truth.

[Oracle_Hunter]

If spells like Zone of Truth, or 2nd ed's Detect Lie, detect the factuality of a statement, whether or not the speaker is aware of it being true or untrue, or believes (or disbelieves) it, then this can be used to get info that reallly shouldn't be that available.

I mean, yeah, that works, but it goes against RAW:

Creatures within the emanation area (or those who enter it) can’t speak any deliberate and intentional lies.

I think it's pretty obvious that being able to use a 2nd level spell as a high powered divination that bypasses divination blockers ("The Ring of Thuroth is at Baron Castle") is munchkinly broken.

[potatocubed]

If spells like Zone of Truth, or 2nd ed's Detect Lie, detect the factuality of a statement, whether or not the speaker is aware of it being true or untrue, or believes (or disbelieves) it, then this can be used to get info that reallly shouldn't be that available.

The way detect lie and its replacement, discern lie work is not like this.

You know if the subject deliberately and knowingly speaks a lie by discerning disturbances in its aura caused by lying.

My emphasis.

Zone of truth states that creatures cannot speak any "intentional lies". Accidental lies, such as simply being wrong about something, can be spoken freely.

[hamishspence]

yes- same applies to Discern Lies. I was wondering if Detect Lie was the same, or has it always been intentional lies only that magic detects.

I can agree with it being more than a little cheesy if i was ever the other way round.

[LurkerInPlayground]

A priest who casts this spell is immediately able to determine if the subject creature deliberately and knowingly speaks a lie. It does not reveal the truth, uncover unintentional inaccuracies or necessarily reveal evasions.

There is a huge and noteworthy distinction to be made between a lie and a falsehood. A lie is a statement that is made in contradiction to what the speaker believes to be true, with the intention to deceive.

"Falsehood" is a label we apply to claims that does not meet a standard for accuracy and is also deemed wholly inaccurate.

A lie is often, but not always, a falsehood.

For example, I could tell a peasant that their crops are really being ruined by malicious pixies. This peasant believes my claim to be true and repeats the falsehood to other peasants.

Later, the cleric interviews the peasants using magic and discerns that they are not lying, because the peasants don't believe that they are being misleading in any way.

[hamishspence]

and what happens when a being genuinely believes something that is, in fact, incorrect? Or vice versa? Will lie detection magic give misleading results in these cases?

[LurkerInPlayground]

and what happens when a being genuinely believes something that is, in fact, incorrect? Or vice versa? Will lie detection magic give misleading results in these cases?

I already answered your question. The spell detects lies -- the willful intention to deceive. It does not determine the truth, falsity or untruth of a statement.

[hamishspence]

ah, so, if it worked other way- it would have had to be called Detect Error, Detect, Untruth, Detect Falsehood, or Detect Incorrect Statement.

(Can just imagine: "But there really is a pixie infestation!" "He didn't believe that at the time- hence, a lie.")

Given that the statement is not an untruth, that makes it a truth.
so we have a statement that is both a truth, and a lie, simultaneously.
Cue headache.

EDIT: (was making post just before you posted, so got posted before I saw answer)