[3.5] The most powerful full spellcasting gestalt combinations

[Myou]

I've been thinking about different gestalt combinations recently, after re-reading parts of UA.

I'm wondering what the most powerful full casting combinations are. Purely out of interest.

I've been thinknig about Wizard//Archivist, to me it seems like an excellet combination, since both sides use Int and it gives you full arcane and divine casting.

Cleric//Druid also seems very potent to me.

What do you think?


Edit: Well, since you guys are suggesting PrCs too why not throw it open? What are the best full spellcasting builds you can think of? Wizard/Incantatrix/Archmage//Archivist?

[Kazuel]

Although I've been out of Dnd for awhile now, I'm pretty sure you can come up with way more powerful options than that. I would start with Wizard//Druid and then move the wizard through IotSFV and Arcmage. I'm sure theirs some pretty nasty Druid PrC out there with full casting. That's just a start, I'm sure someone else will come behind me with a level by level break down of something trully nasty.

[monty]

Those are probably the two big ones, yeah. Wizard/Archivist is more or less the best of both worlds, while Cleric/Druid basically owns low- to mid-levels. I mean, druid is already pretty much unquestionably the best in the early game, and now you're adding more spell slots, better buffs, and access to divine feats.

Edit: I had assumed we were just talking about base casting progression. Prestige classes are an entirely different ballgame.

[Ernir]

Wizard//Cleric/Geomancer? Add other PrCs to taste.

The MAD does not matter so much at early levels. And when it does start to kick in, Geomancer sweeps in and just removes it.

[Myrmex]

Wizard//Archivist has got the real ultimate spell selection, but it doesn't really give you any more actions/round.

Wizard//Psion gets you synchronicity & schism, which means you can be using your psionic abilities in the same round you do all your wizard tricks.

Druid//Cleric is really solid, since you get so many awesome buffs that you can share with your animal companion.

[Myou]

Although I've been out of Dnd for awhile now, I'm pretty sure you can come up with way more powerful options than that. I would start with Wizard//Druid and then move the wizard through IotSFV and Arcmage. I'm sure theirs some pretty nasty Druid PrC out there with full casting. That's just a start, I'm sure someone else will come behind me with a level by level break down of something trully nasty.

I wasn't talking about PrCs, and Wizard//Druid means you have to have high wis and int, dumps stats for the two respectively. IotSFV is certainly a good PrC to use though.

Myrmex's Psion suggestion sounds like it has potential, I don't know much about psionics myself.

[Zaq]

Anything that gives you greater action economy is pure gold in Gestalt, since you'll never have enough actions to burn all the spells that both sides give you. Just about any full caster becomes significantly more powerful with, say, Factotum giving them additional standard actions, even if factotum itself gives only a pale shadow of full spellcasting.

Alternatively, you could use anything that has a lot of swift-action spells and pair that with your normal spells... Arcane Spellsurge, from Dragon Magic, is good for adjusting spellcasting times if you're a spontaneous caster, though less so if both sides are prepared casters. Of course, it's a 7th level spell, so it doesn't kick in for quite a long time.

But yeah, double spellcasters really underscore the fundamental problem of gestalt, that you have twice as many options and the same number of rounds to use 'em all. Unless you're careful to make sure that you can use all your shiny new spells, they won't do you that much good.

[Keld Denar]

Wizard//Factotum is strong, almost stronger IMO than Wizard//Archivist. Factotum gives you some really sick manevuers, the best of which is the one that allows you to burn insp for extra standard actions. Being able to dump 5-6 spells at the start of combat means the game is over before it began. Even tossing an Evards + Solid Fog + Silence on an area is a nearly absolute game winner for you against 95% of opponents.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

For endgame fun make sure that one side is a maxed Swiftblade. Double your pleasure from the Celerity+Time Stop combo, turning it into 2d4+2 spells in the first round.

[dspeyer]

How about a cleric // sorcerer / incantrix? Combine DMM with improved metamagic to get out lots of quickened spells. Take Practical Metamagic if it stacks. Take geomancer if you've got the levels, so that you can use dmm on the arcane side.

Sorcerer // Beguiler is also a fun combination. It's like playing a sorcerer with an enormous spell list, and a whole bunch of skills.

[AdamSmasher]

I would say one side wizard with IotSV or Incantrix, but on the other side use Factotum far enough to get extra standard actions THEN go in to Psion or Archivist.

That would get you full wizard goodness, extra actions, and some of the low and middle level useful divine spells.

[Eldariel]

Wizard//Factotum is strong, almost stronger IMO than Wizard//Archivist. Factotum gives you some really sick manevuers, the best of which is the one that allows you to burn insp for extra standard actions. Being able to dump 5-6 spells at the start of combat means the game is over before it began. Even tossing an Evards + Solid Fog + Silence on an area is a nearly absolute game winner for you against 95% of opponents.

If we consider Factotum a "full caster" (which it isn't), Wizard//Factotum is pretty much unbeatable. Having a dozen extra actions starting from level 8 along with Int to everything (including Initiative and all that) is just sick in every sense of the word. Also, having ~20 Int from level 1 and all skills as class skills and martial weapon proficiencies means the guy isn't a slouch in everything else either. Heck, you could make a fine Gish that way and be more than a match for just about anything with mere Power Attack & maybe Improved Trip at some point; having Wizard-spells & Int to attacks, damage and AC is just that good.

Of course, that's less efficient than just focusing on casting (especially since you want a bunch of Fonts of Inspiration; 5-6 starts to give you good returns) - just simple Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5//Factotum 20 seems pretty ideal as Incantatrix provides all the metamagic you could ever need thus freeing your actual feats for Fonts (aside from the Earth Spell-necessities). Oh, and Factotum also provides you with the banned schools' spells. How convenient.


Let's not forget that Factotum gets the ability to mimic any class features on level 19. That's no slouch. Also the ability to ignore SR. From anything. By the reading that magic immunity = SR infinite, that ignores magic immunity too. And it's a free action! Oh, and that per day +20 to any skill once/skill is also fairly incredible and abusable to a degree (makes UMDing Beads of Karma a breeze; not that you wouldn't have UMD maxed anyways).

[Thurbane]

Archivist/Beguiler, Archivist/Wizard or Beguiler/Wizard would all be pretty tough...

Archivist and Wizard are quite obvious, but Beguiler could pack some spontaneous punch and a bunch of nifty class features to either of the other two. Moreover, a Beguiler/Archivist can joyfully cast away in light armor with no ASF....medium if he takes the Battle Caster feat (hello mithril full plate!)

[Jack_Simth]

I've been thinking about different gestalt combinations recently, after re-reading parts of UA.

I'm wondering what the most powerful full casting combinations are. Purely out of interest.

I've been thinknig about Wizard//Archivist, to me it seems like an excellet combination, since both sides use Int and it gives you full arcane and divine casting.

Cleric//Druid also seems very potent to me.

What do you think?


Edit: Well, since you guys are suggesting PrCs too why not throw it open? What are the best full spellcasting builds you can think of? Wizard/Incantatrix/Archmage//Archivist?

You've got a slight underlying problem. Action economy.

The Wizard/Incantatix/Archmage//Archivist will do quite well - however, he's got some problems.
1) He's a Glass Cannon. At mid to low levels, the HP is not worth noting, and the spells aren't nearly so much made of win. One good direct-damage effect and he's dead (this changes a bit at high levels).
2) Action Economy. You still only get one standard, one move, and one swift action in a given round (until Time Stop). Sure, you've got a lot of spells... but you can only push them out so fast (until Time Stop). Most battles will be over before the mega-endurance comes into play.

For a "full" 1-20 play, you don't really want a dual full caster. You want one "active" side (Full Caster), and one "passive" side (something with a lot of non-action usefulness - Full BAB, good saves, high hit die, sneak attack, and so on). You still want to cut down on your stat requirements, of course, but for a full play game, you want something that's good at all of low, mid, and high levels. If you look at something like a Sorcerer-5/Mage of the Arcane Order-10/Archmage-5//Monk-2/Hexblade-X; making sure to take Ascetic Mage (it's possible to optimize it much better than this, mind), you've got something very useful. Full spellcasting, the ability to get any PHB Sor/Wiz spell once per day on one round's notice. Your primary spellcasting stat (Charisma) is also a bonus to your AC, and it's also a bonus to your saves vs. spells and spell-like abilities. Your hit die are 2d8+Xd10, and you've got full BAB for all but two of your levels - plus both Evasion and Mettle. As a Sorcerer, you've also got a goodly amount of endurance. At most levels, he's a fairly hardened target, and he's still a full caster, and has some of the flexibility of the Wizard.

[Arbitrarity]

Grey Elven Generalist with Natural Bond substitution Wizard5/Swiftblade9/(full casting class here) 6//Factotum5/Wizard 1/Factotum 2/Wizard 1/Factotum 2/wizard 1/Factotum 6 (?)
Get a hummingbird and Nerveskitter. Twice INT, and Dex +13 to initiative. Fun.
Oh, and so many actions it's not funny. This can probably be improved on.

[Flickerdart]

You've got a slight underlying problem. Action economy.

The Wizard/Incantatix/Archmage//Archivist will do quite well - however, he's got some problems.
1) He's a Glass Cannon. At mid to low levels, the HP is not worth noting, and the spells aren't nearly so much made of win. One good direct-damage effect and he's dead (this changes a bit at high levels).
2) Action Economy. You still only get one standard, one move, and one swift action in a given round (until Time Stop). Sure, you've got a lot of spells... but you can only push them out so fast (until Time Stop). Most battles will be over before the mega-endurance comes into play.

For a "full" 1-20 play, you don't really want a dual full caster. You want one "active" side (Full Caster), and one "passive" side (something with a lot of non-action usefulness - Full BAB, good saves, high hit die, sneak attack, and so on). You still want to cut down on your stat requirements, of course, but for a full play game, you want something that's good at all of low, mid, and high levels. If you look at something like a Sorcerer-5/Mage of the Arcane Order-10/Archmage-5//Monk-2/Hexblade-X; making sure to take Ascetic Mage (it's possible to optimize it much better than this, mind), you've got something very useful. Full spellcasting, the ability to get any PHB Sor/Wiz spell once per day on one round's notice. Your primary spellcasting stat (Charisma) is also a bonus to your AC, and it's also a bonus to your saves vs. spells and spell-like abilities. Your hit die are 2d8+Xd10, and you've got full BAB for all but two of your levels - plus both Evasion and Mettle. As a Sorcerer, you've also got a goodly amount of endurance. At most levels, he's a fairly hardened target, and he's still a full caster, and has some of the flexibility of the Wizard.

A Paladin dip will get you CHA to all saves, not just against spells. Hexblade isn't that good, so after you get Mettle from it, you can go fish for more dips. Maybe pick up Warblade at one point so you can get sweet Martial Adept stuff in.

[JoshuaZ]

It depends what level of play you want. If you are actually playing around 20th level then one nice one is Wizard 9/Rainbow Servant 10/1 something else on one side and Warmage 20 on the other. At 19th level you can cast any cleric spell spontaneously on the warmage side. That means anything, regardless of what book it is in. And on the wizard side you've still got 8th level spells which isn't too shabby at all. It isn't directly the most powerful but it is certainly the most flexible possible build.

[Jack_Simth]

A Paladin dip will get you CHA to all saves, not just against spells. Hexblade isn't that good, so after you get Mettle from it, you can go fish for more dips. Maybe pick up Warblade at one point so you can get sweet Martial Adept stuff in.

You saw the bit about "(it's possible to optimize it much better than this, mind)", right?

If you work at it, you can have Charisma to saves two or three times over, and Charisma to AC two or three times over, and Evasion, and Mettle, AND still be a full spellcaster (Charisma-based)...

[Hida Reju]

I have to go with Charisma based caster/Wilder
Wilder 6, Slayer 10, Constructor 4 with using Expanded knowledge from alternate class feature at lvl 5 to get to get Astral contrstruct and have to take it one more time for the other power constructor needs from the Shaper list.

Mage side Sorcerer 6, fatespinner 4, Incantrix 10

Full caster lvl's, low MAD, and you get decent Psi power(including a bodyguard of epic power on demand) and can have schism, arcane spellsurge, and meta magic to your hearts content. Also your BAB and hitpoints are not to bad off either.

[Myou]

Wow, some really impressive combinations, guys!

[Arcane_Snowman]

Druid//Totemist: while Totemist isn't actually a caster, it offers a melee druid a wast bonus (since soulmelds are still useable while shapeshifted).

[mikethepoor]

What about wizard//duskblade? Gives you good martial capabilities, and INT fuels both classes' casting. As a bonus, go into ultimate magus and abjurant champion on your wizard side to gain boatloads of tricks.

[Ferrin]

Or just take Duskblade//Archivist, not a full caster as most of you have but powerfull nonetheless, especialy if you consider using harm with Arcane Channeling. Duskblade//Archivist / Geomancer if you just want to be nasty. (pounce and natural attacks) Also, you can wear medium armor(Heavy with a feat).

But that's just me.

[Eldariel]

Or just take Duskblade//Archivist, not a full caster as most of you have but powerfull nonetheless, especialy if you consider using harm with Arcane Channeling. Duskblade//Archivist / Geomancer if you just want to be nasty. (pounce and natural attacks) Also, you can wear medium armor(Heavy with a feat).

But that's just me.

Hmm, Duskblade 13/Spellsword 7//Archivist 15/Sacred Exorcist 4/Contemplative 1 could be fun. Spellsword further improves your channeling abilities. A pity you can't reach Spellsword 10 without losing relevant spellcasting (that is, Archivist) or Full Attack Channeling though; Multiple Channel would be fun with all the rest. Too bad Spellsword sucks (move action to channel?!), but that could be fun as far as the combination goes.

Adding a level of Barbarian for Pounce and Boots of Battle Charger would allow Pouncing on a Standard Action Charge to get a Full Attack after Move Action Channeling though. Seems handy.