Houserule: Random Knowledge. OP?

[Deth Muncher]

In most games I've participated in, if someone at some point needs to make some sort of knowledge check, but no one really knows what knowledge it applies to, that person just makes an Int roll. But today, as a friend of mine was rolling up a Bard, I realized...that's basically Bardic Knowledge. (Now, most of the time we don't have bards, but in this particular campaign we don't have clerics and needed some healing ((Pills here!)), and the guy wanted a bardish kind of guy ((his actual specification was "Pirate" but we're using mostly Core, so no Swashbuckler)), so we mixed the two for the bard.) So, if we continue to use this houserule, does it make the bard less effective? Or in games with no bards, is it too OP to let people basically have free Bardic Knowledge?

[MeklorIlavator]

Can you give us some examples of such checks? I always thought that the checks were pretty much general enough that they covered anything, so perhaps better classification is the answer.

[kamikasei]

I would just go with "roll a d20, tell the DM your roll, he adds the modifier for the skill he knows applies".

[gibbo88]

The way we usually go is that you can only get the DC 10 info from a general knowledge, as I think its max of DC 15 for bardic knowledge?

[Myrmex]

Untrained knowledge checks are essentially int checks that only give you up to DC 10 worth of info, while bardic knowledge has no such cap. Bards also add their level to the check, and if they have 5 ranks in knowledge history, get an additional +2.

[Tempest Fennac]

I agree with kamikasei (when I make that sort of roll, I'll mention any modifiers which may be relevant to the roll while makign an Int check).

[Sebastian]

Why don't you take a class feature and replace it with an equivalent or weaker versin of Bardic knowledge? For example, Rogue lose un sneak attack die and gain bardic knowledge, a wizard could lose the Scribe Scrolls free feat, etc. If you think it is too good a deal you could use a weaker version, using only half the level for the check, for example.

[Riffington]

Bardic Knowledge isn't usually powerful per se. It's usually the power of "plot exposition", which is great for overall enjoyment but never overpowered. If you lack a bard, most DMs will still find a way to convey that information to the players... with or without rolls.

Though in some campaigns, bardic knowledge tells you lots about what kinds of traps are in what locations, and what certain magic items may do...

[Kurald Galain]

So, if we continue to use this houserule, does it make the bard less effective?

No, as long as the bard is better at it.

Or in games with no bards, is it too OP to let people basically have free Bardic Knowledge?

Overpowered, definitely not. To make up for the fact that not everybody wants it, I'd simply add a skill Knowledge (Trivia) to the list, and let people put points in that if they want to.

In one of my campaigns, one of the characters had the Hat Of Knowledge as a magical item. It mentally conferred lots and lots of information to the character (not all of which was actually useful, but it was a lot of fun!)

[Devils_Advocate]

So, if we continue to use this houserule, does it make the bard less effective?

In an absolute sense, obviously not. In a relative sense, kind of, but not really, since only the Bard adds his level to the roll. He'll be way better than anyone else at these checks at high levels. And I'm not convinced that it's a good thing when one level in a class grants you a special shiny ability that most characters can't use at all. Too much of that stuff is part of what makes many classes so front-loaded.

In the same vein, here are some other things that you can go ahead and give to everybody and probably make the game more balanced, not less:

- Wild Empathy as a 0th-level druid.
- Trapfinding.
- The ability to use all spell trigger items.
- The ability to use spell completion items as a 0th-level caster in every class.
- Proficiency with all simple and martial weapons.
- Proficiency with all armor and shields.
- The opportunity to purchase up to (character level + 3) ranks in any skill.

(You may need to readjust some PrC prereqs if you use these. Maybe just rule that you still need a class that gives you one of these things by RAW if a PrC requires it.)

Further, if a feat allows a character to attempt some sort of special maneuver, then a character without the feat can also attempt it but only at a -4 penalty and provoking an attack of opportunity. (Modify as deemed appropriate. Use your best judgment.)

Note that several of these don't really give an ability so much as houserule away a RAW restriction.

[Deth Muncher]

Melkor, honestly, the knowledge checks that fall into Random Knowledge are literally those defined by Badric Knowledge: random bits of trivia that anyone might randomly pick up. Alternatively, and on a somewhat different vein than BK, it's sometimes used as a "I, as a player, forgot this vital piece of information, but maybe my character knows."

DA: When you say proficiency with all armor and shields, does that include ignoring the ASF for casters?

[ericgrau]

Bardic knowledge tends to be general legendary stuff, not for specific misc. things. It gives...

information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places.

It's "notable", "legendary", "noteworthy". And it's people/things/places, which covers nouns. i.e. any exceptional noun falls under bardic knowledge. Or, bards only care about the stuff special enough to put in a story. Contrary to a certain comic, they can't tell you the local weather patterns and census data. But they could tell you that Azure City is a city founded by and containing many paladins. Or with a higher check that their origins are covered in secrecy, which is odd for a group of paladins.

Anyway what kind of random knowledge are you talking about? Throw me a few examples and I bet I could figure out which categories they fall under.

[The_Werebear]

If there is random knowledge, I usually lump it into History (Legends that are widely known) or Local (Local Folklore)

As for random knowledge, I would let someone take Lore as a feat.