Focused Specialist Evoker

[Myrmex]

I want to humiliate my group using a level 15 evoker wizard, and I was thinking Evoker2/Master Specialist 3/Incantatrix10. Banned schools would be illusion, enchantment, and necromancy. In combat, the only offensive spells cast, besides a greater dispel magic or two, would be evocations.

I'm thinking of metamagicking force missile out the wazoo, and using that to level the party, once member at a time. With CL 16 (easy), that's 4 2d6 missiles. Twinned, maximized, empowered, and repeated is 4*(48 + 0.5*8d6) over two rounds, or an average of 304 saveless damage. That should kill any party member on the first hit, and the party tank on the second hit.

With a familiar, and a quicken, that should be able to kill at least two party members in their first go.

How would you feel if this strategy was used on you? You have a reasonably optimized character (persistent metamagic abuse, over wealthed, gestalt, 40 point buy) that is level 13.

Another option would simply be using cone of cold or something with a similarly high damage cap on the dice that would kill even on a successful save.

[Frosty]

Be careful with Magic Missile. A simple Shield spell will be able to negate everything.

And why ban Illusion? It's got some of the best defensive spells in the game!

[Draz74]

And why ban Illusion? It's got some of the best defensive spells in the game!

Because it's better than banning Transmutation, Conjuration, or (arguably) Abjuration?

You're right, though, it does have some rockin' defensive spells.

[Tempest Fennac]

I'm kind of strange with these things; when I'm playing I prefer medium power/difficulty games, but as a DM, I prefer PCs to be hyper-optimized while feeling bad about killing them, so I wouldn't really want to fight this due to the chances of winning appearing to be so slim, and I wouldn't want to use it against PCs if I was DMing. Why do you want to humilliate the party? Also, how does that Metamagic combination actually work?

[Who_Da_Halfling]

I don't see how this could be fun unless the party gets to seriously plan and prepare so they have a chance of winning (lots of Shield spells, for instance). 304 no-save damage is enough to kill pretty much anyone in one shot, and they'd have no chance whatsoever. The only way they could win was if they had 8-12 party members and were willing to acrue as much as 80% or more casualties in order to defeat you. Ok for a one-shot, i guess, but if a DM in a campaign did that to us, I'd seriously consider leaving. What would be the point of doing that? It's just easier to say "rocks fall, everyone dies."

-JM

[Myrmex]

Be careful with Magic Missile. A simple Shield spell will be able to negate everything.

And why ban Illusion? It's got some of the best defensive spells in the game!

As Draz points out, abjuration, trans, and conj are simply better. That, and this isn't about showcasing a wizard using great spells, it's about a wizard evoking large amounts of damage. Also, I'm using force missile, which is like magic missile's big brother. From SpC, and doesn't list shield as something that blocks it.

I'm kind of strange with these things; when I'm playing I prefer medium power/difficulty games, but as a DM, I prefer PCs to be hyper-optimized while feeling bad about killing them, so I wouldn't really want to fight this due to the chances of winning appearing to be so slim, and I wouldn't want to use it against PCs if I was DMing. Why do you want to humilliate the party? Also, how does that Metamagic combination actually work?

I'd feel bad about murdering them if they weren't so overpowered. As it is, the only things that I've really challenged them with are optimized chromatic dragons 10 CR higher than them (and monsters with gestalt caster levels). I just want to show that evocation can still kick ass and take names; the party wizard is a bit bigoted towards fireball and whatnot. As for the metamagic, as I understand it, it gets applied in the order that you want it to go, so
4 missiles get fired off, each max'd and empowered (each missile maximized in damage, then roll 2d6 for each and divide by half; see the feats for a better description of how they work together).
Twinning duplicates the spell, so another 4 missiles go off, each max'd and empowered.
Then everything repeats on the following round (including twinning, etc).

Total LA for spell would be +12, but that can be dropped with Arcane Thesis and Incantatrix to +4, and then with 4 LA +0 metamagic feats (or practical/easy metamagic), it goes to LA +0. If I wanted to be really nasty, I'd use a rod of chaining.

The party wizard would know that the spells would be repeated, so if stayed within range they would get fried. Whether or not he'd be alive after getting slammed for 150+ damage is another thing. As far as I can tell, only SR will keep the damage off.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for the explanations (I can see why you want to use a build like that, now). Do any of them have Spell Resistance? If they do, I'm guessing it could stop Force Missile (if there is a chance that this would be an issue, having some Orb spells, or other blasty Conjurations like Arc of Lightning and Blast of Flame, could be a good idea).

[Myrmex]

I don't see how this could be fun unless the party gets to seriously plan and prepare so they have a chance of winning (lots of Shield spells, for instance). 304 no-save damage is enough to kill pretty much anyone in one shot, and they'd have no chance whatsoever. The only way they could win was if they had 8-12 party members and were willing to acrue as much as 80% or more casualties in order to defeat you. Ok for a one-shot, i guess, but if a DM in a campaign did that to us, I'd seriously consider leaving. What would be the point of doing that? It's just easier to say "rocks fall, everyone dies."

-JM

Well, three players with minimal preparation killed an intelligently played adult black dragon with customized feats and spells, stats, and more caster levels than the party had levels, followed by killing 2 half-fiend crusaders backed up by 2 mummies, a level 13 DMM cleric, and his 9th level cleric allies riding on nightmares (with +20 attack on a charge, doing around 70 damage a piece), as well as getting hit with Blasphemy and Destruction. They only had one casualty.

But yeah, if they expect to win by kicking in the door unprepared or not running, then they get what they deserve. Which is a swift death.

Thanks for the explanations (I can see why you want to use a build like that, now). Do any of them have Spell Resistance? If they do, I'm guessing it could stop Force Missile (if there is a chance that this would be an issue, having some Orb spells, or other blasty Conjurations like Arc of Lightning and Blast of Flame, could be a good idea).

The cleric could put up Spell Resistance, and persist it on everyone. Because SR checks for each missile, SR could reliably cut damage by 40% to 50%, depending on the CL for the cleric and for the wizard. I don't want to use conjurations because that is both obvious and too good, and goes against the (generally false) meme that evocations = fail. Also, the touch AC of the rogue is like 30, which the wizard really is unlikely to hit.

A persisted Assay Spell Resistance would probably negate anything the cleric could do, unless I was letting him abuse greater consumptive field (which I am not).

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I want to humiliate my group using a level 15 evoker wizard, and I was thinking Evoker2/Master Specialist 3/Incantatrix10. Banned schools would be illusion, enchantment, and necromancy.

Are you a focused specialist or not? because IIRC a focused specialist has to ban 3 schools and incantatrix requires you to ban another one, resulting in 4 schools banned.

[Talic]

If you're going to level 15, you're better off going Specialist: Conjurer, and using the Orb of X line.

Yeah, they require an attack roll (Quickened True Strike?), but can also be metamagicked out the wazoo, for similar results, without SR.

The Real challenge is surviving round 1.

To that end, I recommend banning Evocation, Enchantment, and Necromancy.

Use Illusion to hide (Greater invisibility, silent image, etc), Mirror Image to shield, etc.

One of my favorite tactics is to run/fly around a corner, cast a quickened silent image (of a wall), and behind it drop a prismatic wall. Turns most front-liners into goo.

But a Maximized, Twinned, Empowered, Split Ray Orb of Force (or pick the status effect from the orb list that you like)?

15d6 (maximized) = 90
+ 1/2 15d6 (empowered) = average 26.25
= 116.25
+ 116.25 (split ray)
= 232.5
+ 232.5 (twinned)
= 465 damage

More or less.

[jcsw]

If you're going to level 15, you're better off going Specialist: Conjurer, and using the Orb of X line.

Yeah, they require an attack roll (Quickened True Strike?), but can also be metamagicked out the wazoo, for similar results, without SR.

The Real challenge is surviving round 1.

To that end, I recommend banning Evocation, Enchantment, and Necromancy.

Use Illusion to hide (Greater invisibility, silent image, etc), Mirror Image to shield, etc.

One of my favorite tactics is to run/fly around a corner, cast a quickened silent image (of a wall), and behind it drop a prismatic wall. Turns most front-liners into goo.

But a Maximized, Twinned, Empowered, Split Ray Orb of Force (or pick the status effect from the orb list that you like)?

15d6 (maximized) = 90
+ 1/2 15d6 (empowered) = average 26.25
= 116.25
+ 116.25 (split ray)
= 232.5
+ 232.5 (twinned)
= 465 damage

More or less.

I'm pretty sure he wants to use evoker because he wants to show up his party who seems to believe that evocation is a sucky school. (Common misconception. It isn't really that bad, it's just a bad choice because duplicated by half the other classes out there).

Also: Split Ray applies to rays. Orb of ____ isn't a ray. I realize split ray doesn't define what a "ray spell" is, but I'm pretty sure it's near impossible to argue that orb of ____ is a ray.
---

Also: See if you can nab Wings of Flurry from Races of the Dragon... way better damage. (That is to say, somehow get around the Sorc-only limitation)

[Estrosiath]

Evocation IS a bad school. You need to build your character around a few spells if you want it to be effective. And then it just becomes ludicrous.

[Talic]

It can be argued that any ranged touch spell with one target is a ray. Matter of interpretation.

That said, you could always repeat it, or deal with the toned down 232.5 damage version.

For the evocation variant, I'd ban Enchantment, Necromancy, and Abjuration, in this case.

Illusion is too necessary for spells such as mirror image/invisibility/etc. If you need to ban a 4th, I'd ban conjuration, and keep either abjuration or illusion.

Before the hate wagon on banning conjuration flows, if he is intending to have all his offensive spells be evocation, then he gains access to utility through shadow conjuration, and conjuration is much less important than being almost devoid of buffs worth taking.

EDIT: Evocation is not a bad school. It's just the least good for a party because it replicates abilities others have. Damage dealing.

The key to making evocation effective lies not in optimizing a few spells, but rather, a few feats. Metamagic abuse is where it's at.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

For the evocation variant, I'd ban Enchantment, Necromancy, and Abjuration, in this case.

Not if you're going incantatrix, you can't ban abjuration in that case.

[Gorbash]

You could also take levels in Force Missle Mage from Dragon. He can ignore the effects of Shield and Brooch of Shielding and overall augments Force Missle/Magic Missle casting.

[Myrmex]

Are you a focused specialist or not? because IIRC a focused specialist has to ban 3 schools and incantatrix requires you to ban another one, resulting in 4 schools banned.

True, but the loophole is that any spells in my spell book I can use, prior to the first level of Incantatrix. If it becomes a real big deal, I'll just go with a necropolitan or something and get them spellstitched.

If you're going to level 15, you're better off going Specialist: Conjurer, and using the Orb of X line.

Yeah, they require an attack roll (Quickened True Strike?), but can also be metamagicked out the wazoo, for similar results, without SR.

The Real challenge is surviving round 1.

To that end, I recommend banning Evocation, Enchantment, and Necromancy.

Use Illusion to hide (Greater invisibility, silent image, etc), Mirror Image to shield, etc.

One of my favorite tactics is to run/fly around a corner, cast a quickened silent image (of a wall), and behind it drop a prismatic wall. Turns most front-liners into goo.

But a Maximized, Twinned, Empowered, Split Ray Orb of Force (or pick the status effect from the orb list that you like)?

15d6 (maximized) = 90
+ 1/2 15d6 (empowered) = average 26.25
= 116.25
+ 116.25 (split ray)
= 232.5
+ 232.5 (twinned)
= 465 damage

More or less.

If I wanted to do the obvious blaster that everyone does on char op, sure. But I think I'm going to go with half-orc evoker. Just to make a point.

You could also take levels in Force Missle Mage from Dragon. He can ignore the effects of Shield and Brooch of Shielding and overall augments Force Missle/Magic Missle casting.

Unfortunately, I do not have access to that resource.

It can be argued that any ranged touch spell with one target is a ray. Matter of interpretation.

That said, you could always repeat it, or deal with the toned down 232.5 damage version.

For the evocation variant, I'd ban Enchantment, Necromancy, and Abjuration, in this case.

Illusion is too necessary for spells such as mirror image/invisibility/etc. If you need to ban a 4th, I'd ban conjuration, and keep either abjuration or illusion.

Before the hate wagon on banning conjuration flows, if he is intending to have all his offensive spells be evocation, then he gains access to utility through shadow conjuration, and conjuration is much less important than being almost devoid of buffs worth taking.

EDIT: Evocation is not a bad school. It's just the least good for a party because it replicates abilities others have. Damage dealing.

The key to making evocation effective lies not in optimizing a few spells, but rather, a few feats. Metamagic abuse is where it's at.

Can't ban abjuration, but banning conjuration is a good idea, since the utility for conjuration isn't that high for a blasty NPC that isn't going to last more than 4 rounds anyway. And metamagic abuse is always where it's at.

I'm not sure if illusion will help, since at least the party wizard will have persisted true sight and see invisibility, which will negate all the tricks illusion has.

[Farlion]

Seriously, if I wanted to humiliate my group I'd go with enervation and have them ripped apart by some mediocre monster they usually own. Besides, chainspell+maximized+splitray+twinspell enervation will already piss them off just doing the math to recalculate their stats ;-D

Cheers,
Farlion

[Talic]

I'm not sure if illusion will help, since at least the party wizard will have persisted true sight and see invisibility, which will negate all the tricks illusion has.

... Wouldn't the one that can SEE invisible foes be the first one to feel the blasty blast of blastyness?


Picture this: Intelligent Half-Orc Evoker, places an illusion of a solid floor, where a pit is. Normally, you can only disbelieve an illusion that you interact with.

So, whoever notices first will tip the mage off. Who sees through the scrying eye.

Now, when the party encounters him in the room at the end of the hallway, and bursts open, they see a room with 3 illusionary walls. Sure, that mage can see through. So can the evoker. 1st action? Pick a level 3 or lower evocation. Metamagic it to a 7th or 8th level slot. Use a lesser rod of quicken to speed it up.
Then pick a level 4 or higher spell, and metamagic it to 7 or 8.

Target anyone who noticed the 1st illusion... or the mage, behind 3 illusions that the party hasn't interacted with.

Have a Contingency for a Dimension Door (or wall of force), and you have more issues for the party to deal with.

[Myrmex]

That's is as devious as it is brutal.
Brilliant.

[Toliudar]

I won't try to recalculate any of the damage being accrued here. But any boss encounter that reliably kills a PC each round strikes me as no fun at all for the players (yes, I'm looking at you, Tomb of Horrors). It sounds like the players have put a lot of time into tweaking these characters.

Ah well. You know them. I don't.

[tyckspoon]

I would feel screwed by way of DM power-play, in the same way as if you had simply declared 'a trap strikes the first two members of your party dead. No, you don't get to save against this one.' But then, I would also say that 40-point-gestalt-extra wealth-persistent buffs is beyond the mark of "reasonable optimization." Your group seems to be into Rocket Launcher D&D, however, which makes 300 points damage no-save a perfectly reasonable proposition; the party should be expecting to suffer a death or two if any sort of serious threat gets the drop on them.

[Kylarra]

It strikes me as needlessly cheesy on the lines of instant DM death trap. You might as well walk a kobold up to them and introduce him as "Pun-pun". It'd have about the same effect if combat started, and hell they might get a laugh out of it before they died.

Quite frankly, if my DM pulled this metamagic abusing no save 300 damage on me, I'd be leaving the game.

[ChaosDefender24]

The only glaring hole I see with Talic's example is that nothing screams "illusory wall" more than a flurry of magic missiles shooting through it. But with adaptation, you can still get it to work

Seriously, you need to do something about Shield. Shield *ends* you. Can the PC's pull their scrying stuff on you, or use some sort of divination to get info about you? One solution is to make this guy be another mook, because they're not going to scry every mook they encounter. My wizardly characters tend to have shields up regularly to begin with, soo.... this gets worse if you have more than one shielded spellcaster running around. I think Force Missile Mage only works on the vanilla Magic Missile anyway.

...y'know, Scorching Ray probably works better here, unless people are walking around with massive touch AC's and/or immunity to fire, because of split ray etc.

Also, if the party is as strong as you say it is, you do NOT have four rounds with which to kill them all. You didn't tell us what's in your party.. I'm not good at gestalt optimization, but the Big 5 can easily throw a save-or-lose at you, give you a (much stronger) taste of your own medicine, pounce on you, etc.
Be sure to have some sort of defense or else your wizard is a 304 damage single-use trap encounter. And it would have to be insidiously good in order to work! Again, I don't know what the party's composed of, so I don't know what it's capable of doing.

[RandomFellow]

For those people that keep shouting about Shield...

They are talking about FORCE MISSILES.

Force Missiles are here.

Force Missiles aren't affected by Shield

As for people whining about death traps...

It is a style of play. I personally prefer DMs that kill the players every once in awhile. As long as we are capable of resurrecting or something.

[Radar]

The only glaring hole I see with Talic's example is that nothing screams "illusory wall" more than a flurry of magic missiles shooting through it. But with adaptation, you can still get it to work

Seriously, you need to do something about Shield. Shield *ends* you. Can the PC's pull their scrying stuff on you, or use some sort of divination to get info about you? One solution is to make this guy be another mook, because they're not going to scry every mook they encounter. My wizardly characters tend to have shields up regularly to begin with, soo.... this gets worse if you have more than one shielded spellcaster running around. I think Force Missile Mage only works on the vanilla Magic Missile anyway.

...y'know, Scorching Ray probably works better here, unless people are walking around with massive touch AC's and/or immunity to fire, because of split ray etc.

Also, if the party is as strong as you say it is, you do NOT have four rounds with which to kill them all. You didn't tell us what's in your party.. I'm not good at gestalt optimization, but the Big 5 can easily throw a save-or-lose at you, give you a (much stronger) taste of your own medicine, pounce on you, etc.
Be sure to have some sort of defense or else your wizard is a 304 damage single-use trap encounter. And it would have to be insidiously good in order to work! Again, I don't know what the party's composed of, so I don't know what it's capable of doing.

1. I'm quite sure, there was sort of an invisible spell metamagic somewhere (can't find it right now), so problem of being found can be solved.

2. Shield works only on Magic Missile, so Force Missile is good to go. I wouldn't expect a 1st level spell to block a spell a few levels higher.

3. Assuming the evocer gets a suprise round, which is possible, he can take two PCs before they can react (1 in suprise round, second in the next). Even if the rest of the party would be able get the evocer in the third round, then casualties would still be severe considering that first to go would be wizard and cleric (or any other full caster).

[Kylarra]

As for people whining about death traps...

It is a style of play. I personally prefer DMs that kill the players every once in awhile. As long as we are capable of resurrecting or something.

Kill the players sure. Stuff happens. Players make stupid mistakes. Unlucky roll of the dice. It's part and parcel with the gaming system.

Instant kill the players with no chance of survival regardless of what they do? Not so fun. I mean you might as well just say "okay, you and you, you're dead. Go ress them."

[monty]

1. I'm quite sure, there was sort of an invisible spell metamagic somewhere (can't find it right now), so problem of being found can be solved.

Invisible Spell, a +0 metamagic from Cityscape.

[Radar]

Invisible Spell, a +0 metamagic from Cityscape.

It's only +0? Allmost to good to be true considering, that Incantatrix needs a few +0 metamagic feats anyway and the fact that invisible spell is quite usefull.

[crazedloon]

I do not think this is to mean as far as an encounter goes but have you tried simply using some antimagic fields....

or a master abjurer.... I am playing in a non optimized game and my abjurer dispels all buffs on a creature with a single casting of greater dispell (unless there caster level is 23). give him a greater rod of chaining (something I wish I could afford) and a greater rod of quicken. He can now first turn area dispell their spell turning and then chain dispel all their persistent buff cheese. He now is flying and invisible well above them with 2 dispell actions waiting to happen. Now have his friends come in with antimagic fields to really lay the smack down..... or if you want to be sneaky have a few allied earth elementals hiding in the ground with antimagic field cast on them to extend onto the players but where they can not be reached (melded with the ground)

It seems like a hard encounter would probably kill one or two before they somehow get out of the fields to be able to use their magic items to maybe cast 3 spells to get off 1 spell...

[woodenbandman]

You realize that cheesy tactics like Arcane Thesis, Easy Metamagic, and Incantatrix don't prove a thing, right? All that it proves is that Incantatrix is broken. Anything casting a 16th level spell in a 4th level spell slot is broken. Evocation is still a bad school. But all schools have their saving graces (scorching ray, enervation). And, yes, technically the DM can toss anything out that will kill anyone, but in the long run, an evoker will lose spell slots rather quickly, while yours starts with full spells and ends dead.

It seems that your game is a high challenge game which I applaud, but I just thought I'd let you know that this challenge doesn't prove the point that evocation's not crappy, because it is. That Incantatrix would destroy anything no matter what school it specializes in, because it's an Incantatrix.