Help with a build: Gestalt Spiked Chain Fighter

[Jasper1972]

Hey all,

My DM is running a gestalt campaign, starting at 5th level. We have 32 pts to build the character. For the purpose of this campaign, we get 50,000 gp to spend on one signature item, and 9,000 gp for other magic items. The character cannot be evil.

We can play any race that has a level adjustment of 2 or less (no monster classes). The DM is cool with using the WOTC books for classes, races, feats.

As a side note, I get the feeling that we’re going to be fighting a lot of undead and demons/devils.

So, after reading a few posts here and elsewhere, I decided on what someone else referred to as a 20’ weed whacker of death:

Human (for that extra feat)

Str 10
Dex 17 (18 at level 4, 20 with Gloves of Dex +2)
Con 10
Int 17
Wis 10
Cha 8

Level 1 – Fighter/Rogue
Level 2 – Swordsage/Rogue
Level 3 – Swashbuckler/Rogue
Level 4 – Swashbuckler/Rogue
Level 5 – Swashbuckler/Rogue

For Swordsage, concentrating on Shadow Hand, using the Spiked Chain. In terms of maneuvers, the only one I really cared about was Island of Blades, to get sneak attack on, well, everything.

Feats
Level 1 – Exotic Weapon Proficiency – Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Monkey Grip
Level 3 – Shadow Blade

In addition, the player gets Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) from Swordsage, and Weapon Finesse from Swashbuckler.

With Shadow Blade and Insightful Strike, I’m adding both Dex and Int to damage. This brings up a question – Since wielding a weapon with two hands gives a x1.5 strength bonus, when using Dex “instead of Str” does the Dex get a 1.5 bonus? Anyway…

To deal with the undead, I’m thinking of the Death’s Ruin Rogue variant from Complete Champion for ½ Sneak Attack dice on undead.

Additionally, the 50,000 item is a +5 weapon – a +1 Large Holy, Ghost Touch, Bane (undead) Spiked Chain. With this weapon, at 5th level, he has a +10 to hit, and a 2d6 +9 for damage (+3d6 sneak attack).

The additional items are Gloves of Dex +2, Ring of Pro +1, Amulet of Natural armor +1, and Studded Leather +1. This should give him an AC of 21.

With that as the base, I’m thinking that from here on I go Fighter/Rogue the rest of the way, with the following feat order (using the Rogue special abilities to get more feats):

Level 6 – Deft Opportunist, Vexing Flanker
Level 8 – Weapon Specialization
Level 9 – Mage Slayer
Level 10 – Adaptable Flanker, Combat Expertise
Level 12 – Improved Trip, Dodge
Level 13 – Mobility
Level 14 – Spring Attack
Level 15 – Whirlwind Attack
Level 16 – Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization
Level 18 – Bounding Assault, Rapid Blitz
Level 19 – Improved Critical
Level 20 – Power Critical

Any thoughts?

Jasper

[Eldariel]

Well, I'll just suggest the Rogue ACF "Penetrating Strike" that allows dealing ½ Sneak Attack damage to any creature when flanking them. I'm not sure if Rogue is really such an awesome class for a Spiked Chain fighter, but you could do worse.

Still, something that increases your reach seems welcome. Psion/Psychic Warrior/some such? If you want to stick to Rogue, of course, it'll be ok. I'd consider cramming Swashbuckler to the Rogue-side and using Daring Outlaw though - would open room for different classes on the Fighter-side, such as Warblade or Crusader.

Oh, and Monkey Grip sucks - doesn't increase your reach and the damage increase is no larger than the hit penalty. Where's the Power Attack & Stand Still/Improved Trip?


Also, Chain Fighters usually want Thicket of Blades-stance, which might hurt Shadow Blade's usefulness.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Spiked chain builds are usually best off with a high Strength rather than focusing on Dex. Sneak attack is not a reliable source of damage, especially against undead. A spiked chain build is best used as a tripper for battlefield control, which allows your allies to get better positions on your opponents and gives you and your party better survivability. In that regard, you're probably best off sticking with Fighter and getting feats like (Greater) Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery (PH2) rather than trying to rely on sneak attack. Add on an additional ability that hinders or debuffs your opponents, and every encounter your party will have a huge tactical advantage. This is completely different from what you originally had in mind, but this is what I would play given the thread title:

Human, Fighter 20// Dragonfire Adept 20
Armored Mage variant from Complete Mage

Str 16 (15 base, +1 at 4th)
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 15

Flaw: Shaky
1. Exotic Weapon: Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Entangling Exhalation (RotD)
2. Improved Trip
3. Knock-Down
4. Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain
6. Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain, Frightful Presence (Draconomicon)
8. Melee Weapon Mastery: Piercing (PH2)
9. Greater Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain
10. Power Attack
12. Greater Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain, Ability Focus: Frightful Presence
14. (Fighter feat)
15. Defensive Sweep (PH2)
16. (Fighter feat)
18. Weapon Supremacy: Spiked Chain, (open feat)
20. (Fighter feat)

Invocations Known:
1. See the Unseen
2. Frost Breath
3. Endure Exposure
5. Weakening Breath
6. Frightful Presence
8. Draconic Flight
10. Thunder Breath
11. Terrifying Roar
12. Cloud Breath
13. Devour Magic
15. Force Breath
16. Greater Draconic Flight, replace Draconic Flight with Voidsense
18. Energy Immunity
20. Paralyzing Breath

Items: +1 Sweeping Spiked Chain, Amulet of Fearsome Might (Dragon Magic), Spiked +1 Mithril Breastplate, Armbands of Might, +1 Animated Mithril Light Shield, +2 Belt of Strength, +2 Vest of Resistance, +1 Ring of Protection

Strategy: Use your Dragonfire Adept breath attack as often as possible with Entangling Exhalation to keep as many opponents slowed as possible. If their movement speed is reduced they cannot even 5 ft step, so any movement they make provokes an AoO. Make AoOs whenever possible to trip your opponents, or just melee attack them and use Knock-Down to trip. You'll get +4 from Improved Trip, +2 for Sweeping, +2 for Armbands of Might, and +4 for Strength to trip. Put Endure Exposure on all your party members each day so they won't be affected by your breath attack.

Your Frightful Presence feat will stack with your Frightful Presence Invocation, Shaken opponents take a -2 to their save against the next one and will become Frightened if they fail and will try to flee, so they'll be slowed and you'll probably get AoOs and trip them. The -2 for being Shaken also applies to their opposed roll vs Trip, and Frightened opponents will have to get up and provoke more AoOs before they flee.

This makes a very powerful melee combatant, and with UMD and your Invocations you're a lot more versatile than a typical single-classed Fighter. Also remember that once you get Draconic Flight you'll be able to make diving attacks to deal double damage (MM p312, RotD p10, RotW p68). Don't worry too much about your breath attack DC, even if they make the save and take half damage they'll still be slowed, plus it ignores SR since it's a Supernatural ability. With slows and fear effects and tripping, the rest of your party should have an easy time of cleaning up any encounters.

[Talic]

Human

Str: 17 (18 at level 8)
Dex: 15 (16 at level 4)
Con: 10
Int: 13
Wis: 14
Cha: 8

{table=header]Class 1 | Class 2 | Feat | Special Features
Psychic Warrior 1 | Fighter 1 | EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip |
Psychic Warrior 2 | Fighter 2 | Improved Bull Rush | Dungeoncrasher
Psychic Warrior 3 | Warblade 1 | Power Attack |
Psychic Warrior 4 | Warblade 2 | |
Psychic Warrior 5 | Warblade 3 | Stand Still |[/table]

Level 6, you want Shock Trooper. Dungeoncrasher lets you give damage to people you bull rush. Psychic Warrior gives bonus feats, and Expansion. Expansion increases your reach, strength, and size, which makes bull rushes easier, as well as improving your chances of tripping (your strength check). Shock trooper gives trip checks when you bull rush, lets you direct bull rush, and lets you power attack on charges without sacrificing accuracy.

Other good feats at future levels include Knock Down, Leap attack, and the like.

Against foes that would likely resist tripping and bull rushing (very large foes, for example), you have Stand Still, which lets you sacrifice a bit of damage to stop an enemy in his tracks. Dexterity is acceptable, Strength is good. Wisdom is good enough to get bonus power points, and your warblade at level 5 is initiator level 4 (Warblade level 3). You're set up for a variety of Prestige Classes.

Bear in mind, if you're chaotic, you can also take spirit lion barbarian (2 levels, instead of Warblade 1 and 2). This will give you a pounce on the charge. This means at level 6, you can do the following:

Charge a foe, make a full attack. Declare power attack of 6, subtract it from Armor Class.

Make a trip attack (20 foot range, if you're large). Trip your foe. Get a free attack against him.

Attack 2: Make a trip attack against another foe in range. Trip. Get a free attack.

Each foe gets up, provoking an AoO for each.
Each foe then moves, provoking an AoO for each. Use trip. They each fall down again. You get another 2 attacks against them.

So now, in one full round, assuming 2 foes, you can get a total of 6 attacks that damage your foe (3 versus each). 1 for the first trip, 1 for standing up, and 1 for the second trip.

If there are more foes, you can cut out the stand up AoO's, and use those extra AoO's for trip checks, to control up to 4 foes per round.

When your manifester level increases a bit more, you can grow 2 size categories, which allows for even more options, and the War Mind PrC is a good option for additional power points.

Shock trooper / Power attack is the bulk of your damage, and leap attack can augment it further. Damage is important, as Stand Still is fuelled by your damage (if large, at level 6, spiked chain deals 2d6+7 - nonmagical... on a charge? 2d6+19. That's a stand still reflex save DC of 24, or 36 on the round following a charge. Enhancement bonuses to the chain raise the DC by a like amount. I can't think of much at ECL 6 that has much of a chance against those save DC's.)

On top of this, there's a few warblade maneuvers. They should add some flexibility, and since the bulk of your control is through AoO's, the maneuver recovery isn't as big an issue. Charging Minotaur would be an excellent low level Maneuver, however.

[quick_comment]

If you take crusader levels, you can get thicket of blades stance, which makes it so the enemy cant 5ft step or withdraw away from you without provoking an AoO

[Chronos]

Str: 17 (18 at level 8)
Dex: 15 (16 at level 4)
Con: 10
Int: 13
Wis: 14
Cha: 8

You'd be better off starting with both Str and Dex at 16, and then increasing Str twice. That'd give you the same net effect, but free up one point to increase some other stat (say, bringing that Int from 13 to 14 for another skill point, or Con +1 in preparation for an eventual Manual of Bodily Health), and would also leave you with a higher Dex mod at levels 1-3.

As a general rule, if you're using point buy, you should always use all of your level-up gains on the same ability score, since the level-up gains don't have a diminishing return like point buy does.

[Human Paragon 3]

I would say screw dex and put it in int. Then get rid of rogue and replace with Factotum. Factotum will give you your int to all str checks which includes the trip attempts, plus you can add your int to attack, damage, saves, AC, get extra actions, cast spell like abilities (like enlarge person on yourself) and a bunch of other useful crap. You'll also be better at skills because you get all skills as class skills and add your Int to all dex and str skills, too!

If you keep swashbuckler, you'll actually be getting int to damage twice. How bout that.

[RavKal]

I'd advise going fighter/cleric, because then you can work up to a spiked chain fighter who is consistently DMM: persist: enlarged, and later even better spells.

Plus there's the turn undead thing. And the healing. Healing is good.

Other than that, get rid of that dex score and buff your strength. A spiked chain fighter operates with melee weapons, so str is crucial. Not to say dex is unimportant, since you need the aoos, but str is what gets people killed.

[Talic]

I would say screw dex and put it in int. Then get rid of rogue and replace with Factotum. Factotum will give you your int to all str checks which includes the trip attempts, plus you can add your int to attack, damage, saves, AC, get extra actions, cast spell like abilities (like enlarge person on yourself) and a bunch of other useful crap. You'll also be better at skills because you get all skills as class skills and add your Int to all dex and str skills, too!

If you keep swashbuckler, you'll actually be getting int to damage twice. How bout that.

How about that? Yes, you'd get int to dex skills. Not dex feats. So the AoO-reliant spiked chain fighter, when you "screw dex", doesn't qualify for combat reflexes. Which means 1 AoO per round. Which means control just turns to goo.

At this point, you might as well go for uber-charger. You've removed the control in favor of damage, so we might as well at least make it good damage.

No. Dex is essential. You'll need at least a 16, all said and done. Why? AoO's are crucial to the build.


Some of the mage slayer feats would be good, though. Particularly the one that prevents people from casting/manifesting defensively. That way, if someone gets into your "stand still" bubble, and get stopped... They have precious few good options.

1) Stand there and do nothing (control achieved!)
2) Ranged attack (provoke AoO! use to disarm? Spiked chain does give a bonus to that... or trip. That would stop most ranged weapons that aren't crossbows.)
3) Cast a spell (see above).
4) Cast a quickened spell (a good deal less common than you'd think).

In other words, without advance planning... They're controlled the moment they enter your bubble.

[Os1ris09]

Items: +1 Sweeping Spiked Chain, Amulet of Fearsome Might (Dragon Magic), Spiked +1 Mithril Breastplate, Armbands of Might, +1 Animated Mithril Light Shield, +2 Belt of Strength, +2 Vest of Resistance, +1 Ring of Protection

Hmmm. I was just wondering the OP said he had 50,000gp to spend on 1 weapon and 9,000gp to spend on other gear.

The +1 sweeping spiked chain is 8,000+ mstw spiked chain.
The +1 Mithral Breastplate: 5,200 gp.

That leaves 3,800 for the rest of the gear.
+1 Animated Mithral Light Shield: 10,015gp
Belt +2: 4,000
Vest of Resistance +2: 4,000gp
Ring of Protection +1: 2,000gp
Armbands of Might: 4,100gp

What I Suggest for starting gear from this list is the weapon (put more enchantments or stuff on it maybe make it adamantine).
Take the +1 Mithral Breastplate, Ring +1, and 1,800gp left for you to spend on Misc. Stuff. Hope this helps.

[Jasper1972]

Wow! Thanks for all the feedback!

I'm struggling to understand some of the comments, so I'd appreciate any answers folks feel like giving:

1. In looking at the rules, and reading some of the other posts on this subject, my understanding is a Large Spiked Chain would give the character 20' reach. Am I incorrect?

2. The point (IMHO) of a Spiked Chain, or a large reach weapon, is to control the battlefield. So I need lots of AOOs. So, that was my reasoning for a high dex fighter. The notion then became to try and leverage that high dex into damage. Going Swashbuckler for 3 levels gives me Weapon Finesse (so I'm already adding Dex instead of Str to hit) AND adds Int to the damage. The arguments for going down the Str path are great for damage, but not for control. So which is better, damage or control?

Thank you SO much for the alternate build/equipment suggestions!!!!

[Talic]

Wow! Thanks for all the feedback!

I'm struggling to understand some of the comments, so I'd appreciate any answers folks feel like giving:

1. In looking at the rules, and reading some of the other posts on this subject, my understanding is a Large Spiked Chain would give the character 20' reach. Am I incorrect?

You're Close. A large character with a large spiked chain has a 20 foot reach. If they're huge? 30.

2. The point (IMHO) of a Spiked Chain, or a large reach weapon, is to control the battlefield. So I need lots of AOOs.

Correct.

So, that was my reasoning for a high dex fighter. The notion then became to try and leverage that high dex into damage.

Here's where you deviate from your mission statement. The point is control. Consider amplifying those resources, instead of beefing damage.

Going Swashbuckler for 3 levels gives me Weapon Finesse (so I'm already adding Dex instead of Str to hit) AND adds Int to the damage. The arguments for going down the Str path are great for damage, but not for control. So which is better, damage or control?

Thank you SO much for the alternate build/equipment suggestions!!!!

For spiked chain? Control. Other weapons work better for damage. Boosting Strength boosts your trip check (and Stand Still DC, and bull rush check).

Boosting size boosts your trip reach, trip bonus, your stand still DC, and bull rush check.


Affecting a large area of a battlefield is one of the key parts of control. Your main ways to do this are movement and reach. Reach is more universally useful, though there's something to be said for charging into a good position.

Succeeding on your checks or setting hard to meet checks for saving throws is the other. To this end, anything that boosts base attack, size, strength, or provides another modifier to your control checks is good. A reasonable average damage (20-30) sets the stand still DC ridiculously high, so too much beyond that isn't highly effective.

Assuming a belt of Str +2, and a 17 str at level 5 (16 base + 1 level), you'll have a str of 19, normally. Expansion will get you 21, or a +5 modifier.

A 50,000 gp weapon? +4 Adamantine Spiked Chain. When expanded, you'll be doing? 2d6 (base damage for a large spiked chain) +4 (enhancement bonus) + 7 (str * 1.5), or 18 damage per hit, on average.

At level 6? Shock Trooper + power attack for 6. When expanded, you'll be doing 2d6 + 4 + 7 + 12 (power attack modifier *2) = 30 average damage, for an average stand still reflex save DC of 40. Even if the enemy is DR 10/Cold Iron, you're still forcing a DC 30 save or stop in your tracks. From here, you add +2 damage per level, which will scale the DC faster than Save bonuses increase. Damage is good for control.

At this point, you should be searching for class features that alter your size, provide trip bonuses, bull rush bonuses, or the like, rather than boosting damage. The point of control is NOT damage. It's stopping the enemies so that the rest of the party can deal with them.

Anything that makes you do one of the following is good:
Threaten larger areas (increased reach)
Expand the list of actions that provoke AoO's (example: Robilar's gambit)
Deny the opponent actions that do NOT provoke AoO's (example: Spellcasting Harrier, denying 5 foot steps)
Increase movement (barbarian, Speed of Thought, Quick trait)
Increase the number of attacks you get (Pounce ability, Improved Trip feat)
Increase the number of attacks of opportunity you get (combat reflexes, high dex)
Offer additional movement types (flight, for example)

Increased number of attacks allows you to trip more people. Increased AoO's allows stand still, improved trip, and the like to work more each round. Increasing threat range increases the likelihood you'll need more than one AoO per round.
Increasing actions that provoke removes safe choices from your opponent. Decreasing actions that don't removes safe choices from your opponent.
Increasing movement allows you to get in position easier. Increasing modes of movement allows you to get in otherwise inaccessible options and provides additional options for places to control from.

[jcsw]

2. The point (IMHO) of a Spiked Chain, or a large reach weapon, is to control the battlefield. So I need lots of AOOs. So, that was my reasoning for a high dex fighter. The notion then became to try and leverage that high dex into damage. Going Swashbuckler for 3 levels gives me Weapon Finesse (so I'm already adding Dex instead of Str to hit) AND adds Int to the damage. The arguments for going down the Str path are great for damage, but not for control. So which is better, damage or control?

Damage doesn't quite control the battlefield. As someone said (about another game) hitpoints don't matter until they're below zero. They don't affect the creature at all until he loses all of them. (Now this isn't exactly true in some cases, but not the point.)

How does a martial character achieve battlefield control? By preventing opponents from taking actions. The typical answer to this is using trip, which makes them take an action to stand up, and provokes an AoO on top of that. However, a character with reach has a second option - bull rush. An opponent with less reach than you can be repeatedly bull rushed away from you and your allies, allowing your allies to focus on other targets while the target is forced to move up again.

Either option is improved by having lots of attacks of opportunities, *but* you don't need them. If you hit one opponent a turn, that's still one opponent disabled a turn.

Therefore:

Fighter 1/Half-Giant or Goliath 1 - Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
Fighter 2/Monk 1 - Improved Grapple(Monk), (Dungeoncrasher ACF from Dungeonscape)
Psychic Warrior 1/Monk 2 - Combat Reflexes(Monk), Knockback (Races of Stone), EWP (Spiked Chain)
Psychic Warrior 2/Barbarian 1 - Multigrab, (Spirit Bear Totem Variant (Complete Champion)), (Frenzy Variant - Cityscape Web Enhancement)
Warblade or Crusader 1/Barbarian 2 - Wolf Totem Variant (UA) (Gives Improved Trip)

Key points: Goliath/Half-Giant 1 - Very good race, despite the dex penalty. +4 to trips, bull rushes, and grapples, and effectively gets monkey grip. The normal problems with LA are negated in gestalt.
Monk levels - Very high free feat density, all of which are useful in this build which is feat starved. Warning: Technically you can switch alignment between levels 3 and 4 when you take the barbarian level, but many DMs don't allow this.
Psychic Warrior - More Free Feats, and gains access to expansion and grip of iron.
Barbarian 1 - Yes, that's right, not lion totem, bear totem. Improved Grab > Pounce for you, especially if you can get your grapple to astronomical levels to use multigrab (Savage Species). If you feel your grapple checks aren't high enough to use multigrab, take something else like cleave or extra rage instead. Improved Grab also lets you pull your target into your space, which comes in handy sometimes when you and your allies want to pound in on someone.
Frenzy - Instead of Rage's +4 Str +4 Con, you get +4 Dex +4 Str. It lasts 3+Con rounds and makes you sickened instead of fatigued. It can also be activated before initiative rolls. (Web enhancement for cityscape http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)
Barbarian 2 - Wolf totem in unearthed arcana for the free Improved Trip. Warning: Technically you *can* take both Spirit Bear Totem and Wolf totem, but your DM may not be so kind.

Future Feats: Knock-down in SRD's divine section. (On a normal attack your character can Trip, Bull Rush AND Grapple Someone? WHOO!)
Shock Trooper - No brainer

Future Levels - Maybe more martial adept levels, maybe more psychic warrior, maybe both.

[Talic]

Not sure about grapple. It tends to remove you from being able to deal with other foes, and the others may be better served if you could enhance them further.

Further, you misinterpret Bull Rush rules. Reach is irrelevant. You must move into the defender's space in order to initiate a bull rush. Reach doesn't really factor into that.

[RebelRogue]

I'd just like to repeat the idea of Psychic Warrior for one side of the build. As soon as you hit manifester level 7 you can use Expansion to gain two size categories (and contrary to Enlarge Person it doesn't have any Type restrictions). That's Huge (or even Gargantuan if you pick a Large race). Though, you'll have to consider the Dex loss which may not be conductive if you're looking for Combat Reflexes/lots of AoO etc.

[jcsw]

Not sure about grapple. It tends to remove you from being able to deal with other foes, and the others may be better served if you could enhance them further.

Further, you misinterpret Bull Rush rules. Reach is irrelevant. You must move into the defender's space in order to initiate a bull rush. Reach doesn't really factor into that.

1. Grapple - If you have high enough grapple to use things like multigrab, and have more than one chain on you, it can be useful. (Keep extra chains for you to draw after you use your first one to improved grab the guy at -20 (or -10 if you have the feat)). It's situationally useful, but against single targets it's usually useful. Barbarian was also used for the frenzy, so improved grab is like semi-icing anyway.

2. Sorry, slight mistake on my part. I forgot you needed to use the Knockback feat (races of the stone) to do this with bull rush. This limits it to those with powerful build or large size.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The feat Large and In Charge from the Draconomicon is just amazing for battlefield control, the only downside is you have to be Large or bigger to take it. Half-Ogre is probably the best choice for the lowest ECL (+2 LA).

Driving Attack (PH2) lets you bull rush at your weapon's reach without entering your opponent's space or moving with them.

[Jasper1972]

Okeydoke, let’s give this another shot.

I went over the previous suggestions (thanks again!). I looked hard at Bull Rush, Stand Still, and Improved Trip. It seemed like I should either go just one of those choices. Ultimately, it seemed like Improved Trip was the better choice, as it provided the other players with an advantage. Opinions welcome.

I also decided against the Psionic Warrior. While that made a powerful build, my DM doesn’t care for psionics.

I looked hungrily at Large and in Charge, but it requires a 10’ natural reach.

So here’s what I’ve got so far (same parameters as above), with a few open questions:

Goliath Fighter/Barbarian/Crusader with a 20’ spiked chain (bye-bye Monkey Grip!)

Str 22
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8

The above stats are 32 point buy with Gloves of Dex and Belt of Giant Str, and the 4th level point going into Dex.

Level 1 – Fighter/Goliath Level Adjustment
Level 2 – Fighter/Wolf Totem Barbarian
Level 3 – Fighter/Wolf Totem Barbarian
Level 4 – Fighter/Crusader
Level 5 – Fighter/Crusader

The feats I picked up (in addition to Improved Trip from the Barbarian) for the first five levels are:

Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain
Combat Reflexes
Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain
Mage Slayer
Deft Opportunist

With the first Crusader level, I’m thinking I’ll just adopt the Iron Guard’s Glare stance, to make all enemies I threaten, that attack allies, get a -4 to their attack!

My intention, from this point on, is to go Fighter all the way down to 20th.

For the other class, I’m planning on Crusader until 8th level, where I get Thicket of Blades as a stance (Aoo’s for 5 foot step or withdrawing).
After that, I’m thinking Exotic Weapon Master for 3 levels, to get Trip Attack (can’t hurt to help the Trip DC), Flurry of Strikes (more attacks = more tripped dudes), and Uncanny Blow to up damage on attacks (not sure about that one).

That would take the character to 10th level (11th if I take the 3rd level in Exotic Weapon Master). After that, I honestly have no clue how to proceed class wise. More Crusader levels? More Barbarian? Shrug.

The feat progression would be as follows:

Level 6 – Weapon Specialization, and… ? Power Attack, maybe?
Level 8 – Greater Weapon Focus
Level 9 – Melee weapon Mastery: Piercing
Level 10 – Hold the Line
Level 12 – Robilar’s Gambit, Great Weapon Specialization
Level 14 - ?
Level 15 – Defensive Sweep
Level 16 - ?
Level 18 – Weapon Supremacy: Spiked Chain, and…?
Level 20 - ?

Changed Magic items to:

Large +3 Spiked Chain, Sweeping & Ghost Touch
Gloves of Dex +2
Belt of Giant Str +2
Studded Leather +1

Leaves him with an AC of 19, which is pretty bad, but folks are gonna have a hard time getting to me (yeah, yeah, ranged attacks and spells will really suck).

With 4 Aoo’s, that’s pretty good. The Trip attack at level 5, with Deft Opportunist, is a 19 melee touch attack. With

For saves, this build is woefully unbalanced. Everything is Fortitude strong, and everything else weak.

Any thoughts?

[Os1ris09]

go for Occult Slayer 5 to help with saves and help against mages in general. need to take Improved Initiative at 14 LVL to go into the PrC. I would take it at 8th because an extra +1 to hit isn't all that great since your already at Full BAB anyway. Instead put Improved Initative at 8th LVL and bumb all the other feats up one LVL up to 14th. That way you qualify for Occult Slayer and can gain the benefits early on. IMO only 1 lvl of EWM because the other's don't really help you. Basically its something I call fluff. You already have stuff that do that job well enough and you don't need to spend extra resources on it. ESPECIALLY LEVELS. So ya GITP is going to have to help with rest because I am new to the spiked chain thing as well. I just have a basic knowledge but because I played card games I have some idea about how valuable resources are.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Goliath has a 5 ft. reach, a reach weapon doubles your current natural reach regardless of size, so you will only have a 10 ft. reach as a Goliath with a spiked chain. A bigger weapon does not grant additional reach.

I'd switch Goliath for Half-Ogre from Races of Destiny. For one more point of level adjustment you're actually large size, so you get a 10 ft. natural reach and can use Large and In Charge, plus your strength score will be considerably higher. That way you'll actually be able to have a 20 ft. reach when using a reach weapon.

[Jack_Simth]

Any thoughts?

Jasper

A couple of things...

1) Be aware of power curves. A Melee-character (a Fighter, Barbarian, TWF Ranger, or a member of one of any number of similar classes) is on the higher end of the curve at lower-levels, but on the lower end of the curve at high levels. Most Full Casters are on the lower end of the curve at lower-levels, and on the higher end of the curve at higher levels. Most skillmonkey classes are in about the middle for the entire spectrum. You're starting at 5th; you're about even with the Full Casters for now in overall usefulness, but it's downhill from here. I strongly advise being a Full Caster on at least one side because of this (Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Beguiler, or Favored Soul - but you really will want Full Casting in there eventually - for it to be full, though, you need to start now). Do note that if you don't expect the game to go past approximately level 10 or so, this isn't really a problem.

2) Keep in mind that you may have more options in gestalt, but during a battle, you still have only so many actions. You generally want one side to have "active" abilities (stuff that takes actions - spells, full attacks, whatever), and the other side to have "passive" abilities (things that do not take actions - sneak attack, long-duration buffs, full BAB, good hit dice, good saves, passive abilities, and so on). The Wizard//Cleric may look good on paper, but in practice, you won't go through enough spells for it to matter, and the split casting stat HURTS. The Cleric//monk, on the other hand, is surprisingly good (all good saves, Wis to AC, Wis-based casting, a nice loadout of passive always-on defensive abilities), as is the Druid//monk (same, but Wildshape removes the need for Strength and Dex), the Druid//ninja (same, but Wildshape removes the need for Strength and Dex, and Ninja Swift-action Invisibility goes very, very well with the Sudden Strike on the five attacks the Wildshaped Druid can get on a charge), the Sorcerer//paladin (full spellcasting, full BAB, Charisma to saves, d10 hit die), and so on.

3) Keep in mind that even on a 32 point buy, you can't afford MAD (multiple attribute dependancy), and you really want to have a case of SAD (single attribute dependancy). Again, the Wizard//Cleric looks good on paper, but it has some problems: You have two primary casting stats (Wisdom, Intelligence), you need a decent Dex (because armor gets in the way of your Wizard spells), and you need Con for HP. You need decent scores in four different stats. The Sorcerer//paladin, on the other hand, needs... Charisma for spells (and Paladin abilities), Con (for hit points), and either needs Dexterity for AC (as armor interferes with spells), or needs to find a way to get Charisma to AC (not too difficult - one-level dip in Monk on the Paladin side + Ascetic Mage from Complete Adventurer). The Druid//Ninja or Druid//Monk has it even better - Wildshape removes the need to worry about Strength or Dexterity, and both sides are primarily fueled by Wisdom - all you really need is Wisdom and Constitution - two abilities.

4) Don't try to fill two roles fully unless it's particularly necessary - it'll usually break you if you try. Think instead of Primary//supporting, and focus on one role - pick your Primary to do that role, and your secondary to strengthen it and/or shore up weaknesses. E.g., the Sorcerer (Primary)//paladin (supporting) is better than a regular Sorcerer - Paladin side provides a good base Fort save, much better saves, extra hit points, a better to-hit, and access to some healing; if you're playing as a Sorcerer, you can cut back a bit on Con (the d10 hit die and base Fort saves help you out) compared to what you'd normally do. If you're playing as a Paladin, you select your Sorcerer spells and feats based around wearing armor - pick up Still Spell, take a lot of V only spells (buffs, escape spells), and long-duration buffs (where you can take off your armor, cast them, and put your armor back on). The two have the same sets of class features, but the Sorcerer//paladin plays very much differently than the Paladin//sorcerer.

Note: this is all generic Gestalt advice - if you have good reason, go ahead and break the above rules. For instance, if you do only have two players, you'll probably need to fill two roles. Ideally in such a case, one of you plays a Druid//Skillmonkey, the other plays a Druid//Arcanist. Both of you take combat-oriented animal companions to fill the meatshield role, you share the band-aid role, and one of you is a skillmonkey while the other is an arcanist. All four roles are covered (and you're breaking Rule 4, in that you're filling multiple roles). If you don't expect to go above about 10th level, you don't really need a full caster on one side of your progression, as you're a lot less likely to be overshot by a full caster below 10th (and you're breaking rule 1, because you're not planning for high-level play). If you have a really crazy-high point buy, MAD isn't such a big deal (rule 3). If you don't expect to see much in the way of combat, then combat actions take a back seat to character flexibility, and the Wizard//Cleric is a good choice (breaking rule 2).