3.5 Archivist or Wizard

[JeenLeen]

I have heard that wizards are considered the more powerful of the two, but I don't see what sets them above.

I would imagine having access to any divine spell-list would make archivist more versatile. Do the divine spell-lists lack the utility spells needed for an archivist to qualify as a batman? Is it tricks involving having a familiar? Are the bonus feats more useful than the special abilities Archivists get?

Help in deciding and understanding which of the two is more powerful, please.

[Zaq]

Essentially, arcane magic is simply better than divine magic. Consider why people are willing to play wizards when clerics are available, given that the cleric is better in every way (Bigger hit die, better BAB, better saves, can wear armor, can CAST in armor, automatic access to full spell list) except that the wizard gets wizard spells and the cleric gets cleric spells. Divine magic is very powerful, but arcane magic is more so.

Of course, there are a few tricks that divine magic can do that arcane magic can't. Divine Power, for one... and Divine Metamagic, once we move out of core. But generally speaking, in terms of sheer magical prowess and utility, arcane magic is better.

The Archivist throws a bit of a wrench into the works because they get a wider variety of spells than just about any other class in the game (except arguably the Artificer), so they can cherry-pick the ones that can either rival arcane magic or that can do tricks which arcane magic cannot. The Archivist is in no way a weak class. It's one of the Big Five for a reason. It's just that the wizard spell list is generally more powerful than what divine magic can offer.

[tyckspoon]

The arcane spell list is generally better. The wizard has access to it by default; the archivist has to jump through hoops and probably annoy his DM to get at most of it (by using/abusing Domain spells, for example.) Therefore, at the base levels of each class the wizard is better.The archivist can excel at certain things wizards find difficult by acquiring select spells from the druid/ranger/paladin/etc lists, but if you're going to use some of the Real Ultimate Power tactics that key on wizard spells, you're best off just being a wizard to start.

[JeenLeen]

The arcane spell list is generally better. The wizard has access to it by default; the archivist has to jump through hoops and probably annoy his DM to get at most of it (by using/abusing Domain spells, for example.)

Do you mean by having a Domain-user scribe a scroll, then the Archivist learn it from that?

...but if you're going to use some of the Real Ultimate Power tactics that key on wizard spells, you're best off just being a wizard to start.

But can a high-level archivist do it as quickly (as in, in using as few spells) as a wizard? If so, then does arcane magic stay better at high-levels than divine?

[monty]

Do you mean by having a Domain-user scribe a scroll, then the Archivist learn it from that?

Something like that, yeah, which puts you more or less completely at the mercy of the DM.

Also, there are a lot of spells that do not show up on any domain list, so the wizard has a significant advantage there.

[tyckspoon]

Do you mean by having a Domain-user scribe a scroll, then the Archivist learn it from that?

But can a high-level archivist do it as quickly (as in, in using as few spells) as a wizard? If so, then does arcane magic stay better at high-levels than divine?

Practically speaking you hunt down somebody with the appropriate domain and then use the Archivist's own bonus Scribe Scroll feat to make the scroll in collaboration with the guy who has the spell you want. But yeah, that process means anything on a Domain list is theoretically available to the Archivist- just in the Core domains, that means you could possibly have the Teleport spells, Moment of Prescience, Mind Blank, Poly Any Object, and Time Stop.

For the second question, I think 'Arcane Magic' is still better than 'the set of all Divine', but it's a much closer question. In particular, careful blending of the Cleric and Druid spell sets makes 'All Divine' much stronger; at level 20 you can have Foresight and Shapechange from the Druid list, which goes some way toward evening out the difference in power of wizard/cleric spells.

[Eldariel]

It's worth noting that Wizard also has an easier access to generally stronger PrCs (in core, Loremaster & Archmage, with Completes Master Specialist, Mage of the Arcane Order, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Mindbender, etc. vs. Sacred Exorcist, Radiant Servant of Pelor, etc.). Dweomerkeeper is the singular exception, but for every Dweomerkeeper, there's the Incantatrix.

[PurinaDragonCho]

Let's say you play an Archivist and you avoid the cheese of getting restoration and other spells at lower level through the paladin or ranger list. Even so, you have access to almost all of the good wizard spells through the domain lists or through the adept spell list. You can cast in armor and you have better hit dice.

I'm not really a fan of metamagic (the increased spell level usually seems to high a price for me) so things like Incantatrix don't really blow my skirt up. I also don't like to specialize, so Master Specialist doesn't really do it for me either.

In my opinion, the archivist is the most versatile spellcasting class by far, and has access to almost all of the best wizard spells. Assuming, of course, that your DM allows you to get them, which may be a big IF.

[JeenLeen]

New, related question: a Mystic Theurge based on Archivist and Wizard would be relatively weak, correct?

At a first thought, it seemed good for versatility, but it seems you'd only unlock lv. 9 spells at level 20, at least if I did my math right: 3 Wizard/ 3 Archivist/ 10 Mystic Theurge at level 16, then +4 to one of them for a level 17/13 caster at level 20. You would have to hit lv 24 before you had lv 9 spells in both classes.
Or is there a way to speed up that process? Another good dual-class progression PrC?


Back to old question: I am aware that Archivist is very DM-dependent. It could be hard to find some druid, ranger, or paladin scrolls or scrolls of domain spells. An evil archivist could, in theory, capture and force scribes, but that doesn't really work for most PCs.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Take Wizard 1 with Precocious Apprentice, then Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Geomancer 6, advancing Archivist.

[PurinaDragonCho]

New, related question: a Mystic Theurge based on Archivist and Wizard would be relatively weak, correct?

At a first thought, it seemed good for versatility, but it seems you'd only unlock lv. 9 spells at level 20, at least if I did my math right: 3 Wizard/ 3 Archivist/ 10 Mystic Theurge at level 16, then +4 to one of them for a level 17/13 caster at level 20. You would have to hit lv 24 before you had lv 9 spells in both classes.
Or is there a way to speed up that process? Another good dual-class progression PrC?

Question - why bother with a dual casting PrC? You can get almost every good wizard spell as an archivist. It requires a lot of homework on your part to figure out how to get them all, but through the domain lists and the adept list, you can get almost every spell you'll want (notable exceptions - fireball is only on the class list of one of the Oriental Adventures clases, and Fox's Cunning, IIRC, is only available on the Baator domain list). But you can get fly, knock, dimension door, illusion spells, almost everything. There might be a few very high level spells that you can't get, but not many.

If you really want to multi-class Archivist, I'd suggest taking Factotum and Able Learner - so you can have every skill available as a class skill. I played an Archivist with a couple of rogue levels once, with the able learner feat. It was extremely fun. I kept search and disable device maxed out. I was the skill monkey and the primary caster in a small group. Extremely versatile.

The most important thing - talk to your DM before you play an Archivist and make sure you're on the same page about what your character is going to be able to do.

[Darth Stabber]

In gestalt Pair Archivist up with either wizard (for utter magical domination) or warblade (for gishing the crap out of it). Under more normal circumstances the mere existance of Geomancers also gives you some good access to the wizard list.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

In gestalt Pair Archivist up with either wizard (for utter magical domination) or warblade (for gishing the crap out of it). Under more normal circumstances the mere existance of Geomancers also gives you some good access to the wizard list.

You failed to mention Factotum. This worries and confuses me.

On-topic, the Archivist can have a better spell list than the Wizard, but it takes a lot of work and a nice DM. The Wizard, by RAW, can learn any spell that exists on his list, which is the strongest in the game, at each level-up. The Archivist has to jump through hoops to get many spells beyond Cleric. Yes, if starting at a higher level the Archivist can have all the fun spells from the Healer, Ranger, Paladin, and Divine Bard lists, but in an actual game, you're stuck trying to track down the one example of such in the setting that the DM decided to toss in because you wouldn't shut up about it.

[Keld Denar]

There are a few gems that don't show up on any lists. Contrary to intuitive thought, Glitterdust (oh! SHINEY!) does not appear on the Kobald domain list, as much as it should. Also, I tried looking a while ago, and couldn't find it except on a really obscure setting related domain, but Enervation and Ray of Enfeeblement are staple debuffs for wizards that archivists just don't get. Especially when you venture into the Spell Compendium, there are TONS of amazing wizard spells in there that don't appear on any domains. Freezing Fog, the Orbs, Benign Transposition, and a ton of other goodies. But then, you do get some pretty awesome spells that most people wouldn't have access to. Darkbolt is a favorite of mine. Thrown 1 bolt at a time, Darkbolt has the ability to chain stun one person as a non-action after the first, or AoE stun CL targets for 1 round. Versitile and awesome, it only appears on the Darkness domain list meaning its not even open to like, 99/100 clerics. Its really good though.

[Chronos]

In principle, an archivist could get access to any spell whatsoever. All you need is for there to be a Mystic Theurge (or even just a cleric 1/wizard 17) with the Alternate Source Spell feat somewhere in the world, and he can scribe divine scrolls of all of his wizard spells which you can then copy. If you really want to be thorough about it, then you also need to find a Wu Jen with that feat, too, but that's also theoretically possible. In fact, all you really need is that such a character existed some time in the world's history, and that an archivist of that time copied the spells from him. Now you just need to find that archivist's prayer book (or that of one who copied from him, and so on). Of course, this is highly dependent on what your DM allows into his world.

That's the real problem with archivists: They present your DM with a difficult balancing act. If he never gives you access to exotic spells, then you might as well have played a cleric, but if he gives you access to too many exotic spells, the class becomes overpowered.

[JeminiZero]

That's the real problem with archivists: They present your DM with a difficult balancing act. If he never gives you access to exotic spells, then you might as well have played a cleric, but if he gives you access to too many exotic spells, the class becomes overpowered.

Not necessarily. Even without the exotic spell list, Archivist make far better knowledge monkeys than Clerics and come with Dark Knowledge to boot. I would say that alone is distinctive enough for you to play Archivist even without the exotic spells.

[Irreverent Fool]

...puts you more or less completely at the mercy of the DM.

That's the real problem with archivists: They present your DM with a difficult balancing act. If he never gives you access to exotic spells, then you might as well have played a cleric, but if he gives you access to too many exotic spells, the class becomes overpowered.

This. Archivists are just wizards with cleric spells. They do have the nifty cheese-factor, but it actual play are likely to be kept on a slightly shorter leash than the wizard thanks to those "non-clerical divine spells".

An archivist ends up being a cleric without the domains, without the turning, without the armor, and without the BAB. From an optimization standpoint, as with paladins, I'd recommend playing a cleric and flavoring your class as an archivist.

The archivist is a totally playable class, however. It has some cool fluff too. Don't get me wrong.

Edit: I forgot about the knowledge-monkey thing. They're quite good for that.

obnoxious
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[Thurbane]

The Archivist also has one fairly significant drawback that the Wizard does not - two casting abilities (INT for highest level spells and DCs, WIS for bonus spells/day).

[PurinaDragonCho]

Enervation and Ray of Enfeeblement are staple debuffs for wizards that archivists just don't get.

Ray of Enfeeblement is an Envy Domain spell.
Enervation is available through the Hunger and Suffering domains.

Also, the Divine Magician alternate class feature from Complete Mage makes it theoretically possible that you could get any abjuration, divination or necromancy spell (although that seems a little cheesy to me).

[DireFrostWolf]

There are a few gems that don't show up on any lists. Contrary to intuitive thought, Glitterdust (oh! SHINEY!) does not appear on the Kobald domain list, as much as it should. Also, I tried looking a while ago, and couldn't find it except on a really obscure setting related domain, but Enervation and Ray of Enfeeblement are staple debuffs for wizards that archivists just don't get. Especially when you venture into the Spell Compendium, there are TONS of amazing wizard spells in there that don't appear on any domains. Freezing Fog, the Orbs, Benign Transposition, and a ton of other goodies. But then, you do get some pretty awesome spells that most people wouldn't have access to. Darkbolt is a favorite of mine. Thrown 1 bolt at a time, Darkbolt has the ability to chain stun one person as a non-action after the first, or AoE stun CL targets for 1 round. Versitile and awesome, it only appears on the Darkness domain list meaning its not even open to like, 99/100 clerics. Its really good though.

yeah maybe archivist don't get those but archivist do get anyspell and greater anyspell from a domain so if an archivist wants those spells he/she can have them

[PurinaDragonCho]

yeah maybe archivist don't get those but archivist do get anyspell and greater anyspell from a domain so if an archivist wants those spells he/she can have them

Actually, I don't think that works. If you read the description of Anyspell, it says you have to use a domain slot. Archivists don't have those - unless you use a tortured reading of the Holt Warden PrC to get them. But I still think the Archivist is far and away the most versatile casting class.

[The Deej]

I've played both of these classes (more or less anyway).

I had major fun as an Archivist summoner (Archivist/Malconvoker/Thaumaturgist). If it could summon, or call a creature, I could cast it. If it happened to be evil, I got nifty bonuses like maxed out HP/hit die, extra strength and con, and auto extended. And the party also had an artificer who could make any scroll I wanted/needed. This meant lots of options for imbued summoning, on top of using my Dark Knowledge ability (which synergises great with summons).

And even though it never happened, I found that it was conceivable for me to have a Balor or a Pit Fiend as a COHORT.


One area I found lacking? Lackluster blasting options. Even though blasting is sub-optimal, Wizard does it way easier and way better than Archivist.

I haven't compared debuffing in depth, but I think Wizard might win out there too.

In short, one is better than the other depending on role taken. I'm inclined to say that Archivist is a better generalist than Wizard, though since he's able to do anything a wizard can, plus everything a cleric can (except turning, but it sucks anyway unless you do a turning build).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

And the party also had an artificer who could make any scroll I wanted/needed.

Yes, pre-errata, the Archivist is incredible if partnered with an Artificer. That essentially means any spell on any list anywhere is learnable, no matter how rare it actually is(alternative spell source). But that is the exception to the general rule: Archivists can find awesome stuff, Wizards start with awesome stuff. It comes down to DM fiat if any of those spell lists people are listening exist, let alone if you can locate a member of that class.

[Nohwl]

as stated earlier, an archivist has a very large spell list. depending on whats allowed, an archivist can get most, if not all wizard spells as divine ones, along with bard spells, druid spells, paladin spells and ranger spells, in addition to the cleric spell list. an archivist has one more spell slot than a wizard does, a better hit dice, the ability to wear armor and cast without spell failure, and actual class features. instead of finding the spells, an archivist can buy a scroll of secret page, put it into his/her spell book, and abuse that to get any spell he/she wants. a warlock cohort would work too because of their 12th level ability. an archivist has every trick a wizard has when it comes to spells, and more, and can get the spells at the earliest levels possible. the problem with your spell list is you have 2 casting stats that need to be high. you are more MAD than a wizard.

a wizard has access to abrupt jaunt, which is ridiculous early on(and is useful at higher levels too). a wizard also has access to some feats an archivist doesn't, such as ones that reduce metamagic costs. as an archivist, a level dip into sacred exorcist would give you turn undead and you could abuse divine metamagic and nightsticks to pay for your spell level adjustment. a wizard has a few more options than an archivist when it comes to feats. the archivists options aren't really worse, they are just more limited.

a wizard has incantatrix; an archivist has dweomerkeeper. a wizard some better options when it comes to prestige classes, most of the divine ones sorta suck. there are a few really good divine ones, but you have to look to find them, they aren't as easy to see as the arcane ones. if i was told to build an optimized wizard, it would be something like wizard 5/ incantatrix 10/ archmage 5; if it was an archivist, i would use something similar to archivist 5/ sacred exorcist 1/ singer of concordance 4/ dweomerkeeper 10. the problem with the prestige classes for an archivist are the requirements, your race would be either elf or human, your first feat would be magical training, and you would need the dragonborn template to go into singer of concordance. you get more options as a wizard when it comes to prestige classes.

a wizard has more options as to prestige classes and feats he/she can take that are worthwhile. if you play an archivist, it takes more digging to find what you want.

the dm has more control over what spells you have access to as an archivist, and that will influence how strong you are. if you have access to all of the spell lists, an archivist will be better. a wizard will be better if the archivist is limited in what spells he/she can learn. starting at level one, a wizard is better. the archivist doesn't have many spells (only ones from the cleric list) and the wizard probably has abrupt jaunt. the archivist will be able to get more spells, and given enough time will be better than the wizard.

[Chronos]

One area I found lacking? Lackluster blasting options. Even though blasting is sub-optimal, Wizard does it way easier and way better than Archivist.

If you define "blasting" as doing a lot of damage to a single target, then a frenzied berserker does it better than wizard or archivist. But if you define it as doing damage to multiple targets, then the best blasting spells in Core, at least, are available to an archivist but not to a wizard. It's hard to find a blasting spell with a larger area than Control Winds or Storm of Vengeance, both of which are divine-only.

Yes, pre-errata, the Archivist is incredible if partnered with an Artificer.

And still is, if paired with a Warlock with a good UMD check. Scrolls made by a warlock are explicitly arcane or divine, though divine scrolls are more difficult to make.

[The Deej]

If you define "blasting" as doing a lot of damage to a single target, then a frenzied berserker does it better than wizard or archivist. But if you define it as doing damage to multiple targets, then the best blasting spells in Core, at least, are available to an archivist but not to a wizard. It's hard to find a blasting spell with a larger area than Control Winds or Storm of Vengeance, both of which are divine-only.

I was referring to both. Wizard gets orbs, disintegrate is one level lower, and has tons of other classic options that the DM can't say "not available" to. I also meant that it's easier to be a blasty Wizard than a blasty Archivist. The fact that Frenzied Berserker can out damage either for single targets is moot, since the comparison was solely whether Wizard or Archivist was better at it, not what's absolutely best at it.

[Nohwl]

I was referring to both. Wizard gets orbs, disintegrate is one level lower, and has tons of other classic options that the DM can't say "not available" to. I also meant that it's easier to be a blasty Wizard than a blasty Archivist. The fact that Frenzied Berserker can out damage either for single targets is moot, since the comparison was solely whether Wizard or Archivist was better at it, not what's absolutely best at it.

archivists can get disintegrate at level 6, and they can get all of the orb spells at the same level a wizard gets them or lower.

theres a favored soul variant that puts any wizard spell of 6th level or lower on its spell list as a divine spell. because archivists can cherry pick what spells they get from what list, they can get them all at the lowest possible levels. theres also hexer from masters of the wild that puts all wizard spells on the divine list. its 3.0, but if it hasn't been updated, i'm pretty sure its legal to use.

the dm is able to say you cant cast that spell to a wizard just as easily as he/she can say it to an archivist. the 3 dms i know all have no problem allowing an archivist to have access to all of their spell list. if you are comparing an archivist without access to everything their class allows to a wizard, its like comparing a rogue without sneak attack to a fighter. an archivist has access to all divine spells. if you are taking that away, and then comparing them, doesn't that mean that the archivist is stronger?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

the dm is able to say you cant cast that spell to a wizard just as easily as he/she can say it to an archivist. the 3 dms i know all have no problem allowing an archivist to have access to all of their spell list. if you are comparing an archivist without access to everything their class allows to a wizard, its like comparing a rogue without sneak attack to a fighter. an archivist has access to all divine spells. if you are taking that away, and then comparing them, doesn't that mean that the archivist is stronger?

The problem is that the Archivist can only have every divine spell if he can find them. How many Favored Souls are there? And how many of those use that specific variant? And how many of those have the specific spell you want? Now, can you find any of them? That's the problem for the Archivist. A Wizard, meanwhile, can automatically scribe any spell into his book he wants at levelup. That's why the Wizard is powerful independant of the DM and the Archivist is reliant on the DM.

[Nohwl]

you are right, but finding a person for every spell you want is the hard way to do it. you're correct, finding that person is very unlikely, which is why you don't do that. there are a few different ways to get your very large spell list without finding that one person for that one specific spell.

if you aren't playing with errata, a first level artificer can make you any scroll you want. those probably aren't hard to find. so what do you do if your dm uses all of the errata?

you take leadership, and get a warlock cohort. the 12th level ability lets you scribe any arcane or divine scroll, and you don't need to know the spell to do it. have it make you any scroll you want. now you aren't looking for that very rare favored soul.

so what do you do if your dm uses errata and has banned leadership? you abuse the spell secret page (players handbook). you can get that from a divine bard, one of those favored souls, or a hexer if you use 3.0. its also in the rune domain for clerics, so you shouldn't have too hard of a time finding it. one of the options is you can make it look like a spell. it doesn't say you have to know the spell, so pick any spell you want to learn and make it look like that spell. unless you manage to misplace your spellbook in the 6 seconds it takes you to cast a spell, you now have a copy of whatever spell you want. a wizard can do this trick too. now, you don't have to wait until the higher levels to get access to your huge spell list.

after doing one of those tricks, you have a character that can cherry pick every spell he/she wants, getting every spell at the lowest levels he/she can, and has one more spell slot per day than an unspecialized wizard. how is the wizards spell list better when its included in the archivists spell list?

the dm determines what's in the game. after that, it's not hard to get access to it.

[Chronos]

Quoth The Deej:

I was referring to both. Wizard gets orbs, disintegrate is one level lower, and has tons of other classic options that the DM can't say "not available" to.

Control Winds is on both the druid list and one of the core domains. If your DM isn't letting you get druid spells, then he's basically not letting you play an archivist. And Storm of Vengeance is on the cleric list, too, meaning it's one of the spells an archivist can get for free.

Quoth Nohwl:

so what do you do if your dm uses errata and has banned leadership? you abuse the spell secret page (players handbook). you can get that from a divine bard, one of those favored souls, or a hexer if you use 3.0. its also in the rune domain for clerics, so you shouldn't have too hard of a time finding it. one of the options is you can make it look like a spell. it doesn't say you have to know the spell, so pick any spell you want to learn and make it look like that spell. unless you manage to misplace your spellbook in the 6 seconds it takes you to cast a spell, you now have a copy of whatever spell you want. a wizard can do this trick too. now, you don't have to wait until the higher levels to get access to your huge spell list.

I can make a thing that looks like a trillion-dollar bill, but that doesn't mean that I'm richer than Bill Gates. Just because your spellbook looks like it has some spell in it doesn't mean you can prepare it: You have to actually have the spell in your book, not just look like you do.