GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread

[Xallace]

...inspired by Blame! and Trigun (anyone get those references?)...

Heck yes,

... i'll get to some feedback (if you guys want it that is) once I get to reading them.

and heck yes.

[Lord_Gareth]

My entry, the Bang Baby, is up! Comments and critiques are appreciated ^_^

[HeavySleeper]

Okay, here’s an actual critique of the Redeemer.

Prerequisites look good. About what I’d expect.

I’m a bit surprised Handle Animal isn’t on the skill list. Otherwise, looks good. 4+ Int seems right for the class.

Base Attack Bonus, saves, and spellcasting are about where they should be, I think.

Now, on to the class features.

I like how the Gunseed generation works, except for one issue I’ll mention below. It’s also good there is a bonus to attack and damage granted; I’m not sure if there needs to be some sort of cost. By 9th level, you could be using what are essentially two +4 weapons, which would be fairly expensive otherwise.

I like the code of conduct.

Ammoseeds: I’m unclear how Parasite Roots would work on a small, dense piece of metal, like a sword. If the bullet can penetrate the sword, it should really already be sundered. Also, I think there might need to be some way to halt the effect, even if the save fails. As is, literally any weapon or item can be destroyed if enough time is allowed. It’s vicious. Otherwise, they all seem good. I particularly like the Flytrap Sentry.

Sculpt Gunseed: makes sense for the class to have this ability. Looks good.

Ironbark Shield: defensive abilities are good. I like this.

Primal Retrogression: I see no reason this couldn’t also be used as a ranged attack, albeit with a smaller radius.

Quick Regrowth: this creates the only issue that might exist with the gunseed itself. If, when you grow a new gunseed, it is created with a full magazine, it’s actually more efficient to reverse the gunseed into seed form as a free action at the end of each round, and then regrow it at the beginning of each new round as a swift action and never have to reload. I’m sure this can be fixed easily.

Cycle’s Embrace: Hooray For Recycling!

Spirtbark Shield: a good improvement. Not overpowered.

Verdigris Repossession: See Primal Retrogression. Also, this is powerful, but only against very specific things. I think you could add some other effect, like damage as the result of super-rapid plant growth, that is effective against a broader range of enemies.

I really like the class overall. Good, unique fluff, and functional, properly powered mechanics. Well done.

[Samb]

PEACH on nameless gunman. I like that it is only 5 levels. The flavor is very spegetti western which also dig. Intimadate as a means to gain advantage is nice but maybe add a feature to take 10 on intimadate checks.

Draw! Seems a bit too powerful for battlefield control. Nothing says you can't do this to multiple targets either. At least allow a saving throw to resist it. It also needs a way to hinder attepts to learn his real name. Somthing like slippery mind.

[Samb]

Blackened soul gunman. This needs a lot more flavor. Where does this darkness come from? Is it a special connection to the negative energy plane? Is it a currportion of the swordsages' soul? Is it the darkness that lurks within all of us? This is never addressed, and there is no alignment requirement even though it is strongly hinted at being evil.

All the defensive features are okay, buy dealing 4 CON damage at the first level is way too strong. Also you never specify how long this damage lasts. Is it permenant?

Overall, I can't say I liked this PrC very much. It seems like a black flame zealot but with a gun flavorwise. Dealing 4 CON right off the bat with no limits on encounter or per day and so soon is rather overpowered.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Hmmm...debating throwing my hat into the ring, but I want to know which people would be more interested in seeing, as I have several ideas:

1: A conversion of my Black Powder Mage to a PrC. It's a Blunderbuss wielding class focused on high-damage, powerful shots and on battlefield control.

2: A class bonding with a projectile-firing symbiont and gaining aberrant powers from the connection.

3: A class that turns a Warforged into a walking artillery emplacement.

[Lord_Gareth]

Warforged! WARFORGED!

Can I get a PEACH on the Bang Baby?

[ErrantX]

All of those are exceptional ideas Djinn... I personally would love to see the black powder mage or the symbiont and to be honest, I can't really decide which I'd prefer.

But alas, I must...

Do the symbiont. It's very different, and everyone loves an aberration. That's my vote. I really like your black powder mage too much to cut it in half :)

-X

[horngeek]

...

Is it bad that when I saw the title of the latest PRC contest, I immediately thought of Yu-gi-oh?

Especially as I don't even watch it.

[HeavySleeper]

Blackened soul gunman. This needs a lot more flavor. Where does this darkness come from? Is it a special connection to the negative energy plane? Is it a currportion of the swordsages' soul? Is it the darkness that lurks within all of us? This is never addressed, and there is no alignment requirement even though it is strongly hinted at being evil.

All the defensive features are okay, buy dealing 4 CON damage at the first level is way too strong. Also you never specify how long this damage lasts. Is it permenant?

Overall, I can't say I liked this PrC very much. It seems like a black flame zealot but with a gun flavorwise. Dealing 4 CON right off the bat with no limits on encounter or per day and so soon is rather overpowered.

Yeah, there's more fluff coming. I've just been busy.

And I don't find a maneuver that deals 4 Con damage overpowered. There's a fifth level Shadow Hand maneuver that does the same thing, which means normal swordsages have access to it at ninth level, which is, theoretically, also the first level of the prestige class. If you multiclass, you could get in 1 level earlier, I guess. Seems like a fair reward for intentionally aiming for the class.

[Samb]

But a warblade or crusader can enter at level 6 right? That's a big difference. Also how long does this lose of CON last? How is it recovered? What happens when it hits zero? The reason why CON damage is so bad/good is because it deals up damage that cannot be healed.

I think vile damage might be better balanced if you are making this an evil class. Or scale the CON damage and have saving throw negates.
I think it is powerful PrC but it really some balencing and more flavor, especially for alignment.

[ErrantX]

...

Is it bad that when I saw the title of the latest PRC contest, I immediately thought of Yu-gi-oh?

Especially as I don't even watch it.

You need watch some good old Westerns, like, stat. Hit some John Wayne movies or even some Clint Eastwood movies. Because if Yu-gi-oh was the first thing that came to mind, your mind... your poor mind

-X

[HeavySleeper]

But a warblade or crusader can enter at level 6 right? That's a big difference. Also how long does this lose of CON last? How is it recovered? What happens when it hits zero? The reason why CON damage is so bad/good is because it deals up damage that cannot be healed.

I think vile damage might be better balanced if you are making this an evil class. Or scale the CON damage and have saving throw negates.
I think it is powerful PrC but it really some balencing and more flavor, especially for alignment.

Unless the Warblade or Crusader somehow gets a good Will Save progression, no, they can't.

And the ability damage comes back at the normal rate for ability damage: 1 per day unless stated otherwise.

[Xallace]

You need watch some good old Westerns, like, stat. Hit some John Wayne movies or even some Clint Eastwood movies. Because if Yu-gi-oh was the first thing that came to mind, your mind... your poor mind

-X

I concur. Tombstone, now. Preferably the Mustache-Lover's Edition.

[DracoDei]

Just posted most of the class abilities for my class... I am REALLY bummed out about missing the previous deadlines here and in the creature creation contest due to disorganization and procrastination, so help me "get back on the horse" with some feedback here! Please?

[Samb]

HeavySleeper: oh wow that's a high will save. Guess it has to be swordsage or dipping into high will save classes. Could you please specify that that shot is once a day? It read like it was a readied maneuver. Also add how long the lose of CON and how it can be recovered. Level 9 is reasonable for CON damage. Still needs more fluff!!!

Draco: please finish cleaning up your post and I'll take a look.

Xallace: the redeemer is very nice. I don't know much about druids so I'm not sure i'm the best to give you feedback but I'll do my best.

Flavor wise it seems to be a cross between trigun and the 1st hokage in Naruto. Gunseed is a great concept, a gun that is never away from you, can't be disarmed, can't be sundered. The shots are great for crowd control too. I think Fort save should be higher and less reflex seems to fit the flavor better. I think shotgun should do cone damage myself but I guess it would be hard to calculate damage.

Cycle embrace is really quite a mean thing to do. I would hate if an NPC did that to me. The capstone reminds me a lot of Naruto where theh 1st Hokage could summon wild plant growth all over the place. I liked this class a lot, as I favor crowd control too (see my own entry) other than some nitpicking I would say you put a lot of thought into this class.

I'll be doing bang babies next, and maybe look into cybernetic gunner again since there has to a combo in there that will blow my mind. I would really some feedback on my psi-shot revolver though as I'm not sure the recent revamp was less confusing (or overly powerful).

[Samb]

I concur. Tombstone, now. Preferably the Mustache-Lover's Edition.

3:10 to Yuma and Appaloosa were excellent as well if you are looking for something more modern.

[ErrantX]

3:10 to Yuma and Appaloosa were excellent as well if you are looking for something more modern.

Heck, even Young Guns 1 & 2. Gotta love Emilio Estavez's famous line of "I'll make you famous."

-X

[Bobmufin52]

PEACH on nameless gunman. I like that it is only 5 levels. The flavor is very spegetti western which also dig. Intimadate as a means to gain advantage is nice but maybe add a feature to take 10 on intimadate checks.

Draw! Seems a bit too powerful for battlefield control. Nothing says you can't do this to multiple targets either. At least allow a saving throw to resist it. It also needs a way to hinder attepts to learn his real name. Somthing like slippery mind.

Hmm, IDK about the take 10 on intimidate... I'll have to think about that.
As for the Draw! ability, I meant to make it just one person, and I thought I already added a will save to resist, I made it like the knight's challenge from the PH2.
Thanks for pointing out the idea of protecting his name, I totally forgot that there's magic that can let you read a person's mind. XD How bout a bonus of class level + wis modifier to resist any spell that can reveal your name, and you can make a will save vs. the spellcaster's spell level to figure out who cast the spell? Maybe make it a 2nd or 3rd level ability.
Anyway thanks for the PEACH, I'll add those abilities sometime next week.

[ErrantX]

Hehe, oh the Nameless Gunman.

Scene: Gunman vs Wizard outside of the Saloon, they start trading barbs and the Wizard uses divination magic to discover the gunman's name. Gunman then fails his Will save.
Wizard: *mumbojumboohwhatajerkiammumbojumbo*
Gunman: What are you doing? *twitch*
Wizard: ...hahahahaha!
Gunman: What? What?!
Wizard: You're name... *wipes away tears* is Sue?!?
Gunman: *shoots the wizard in the face*

-X

[Samb]

Hehe, oh the Nameless Gunman.

Scene: Gunman vs Wizard outside of the Saloon, they start trading barbs and the Wizard uses divination magic to discover the gunman's name. Gunman then fails his Will save.
Wizard: *mumbojumboohwhatajerkiammumbojumbo*
Gunman: What are you doing? *twitch*
Wizard: ...hahahahaha!
Gunman: What? What?!
Wizard: You're name... *wipes away tears* is Sue?!?
Gunman: *shoots the wizard in the face*

-X

Wizard baneful polymorphs gunman into a chicken after gunman's shot misses.

[Arkdelta]

To Xallace:

I gotta say that I really like your Redeemer class. I'm running a campaign with my friend right now where he is playing a Rose Gunner, who has had the Leadership feat, but hadn't picked out a cohort. When you posted your class, I suggested it to him, and he immediately decided that he had found exactly the type of tag-team he was looking for. The classes have ended up complimenting each other really well so far, and I've had a lot of trouble deciding which of the two is more useful to the party. So far, I have nothing to add that HeavySleeper hasn't already mentioned, and everything seems balanced.

For reference, the party as it now stands takes place in a world that I have created (partly for the purpose of providing a setting to test our the gunslingers, but its evolved beyond that), and has three members, a Sorcerer/Barbarian/Rose Gunner, a Druid/Redeemer, and a Wizard/Artificer/Arcane Smith (one of ErrantX's prestige classes that I wanted to try out) who uses a Disintegration Gun).

Among other things, I have found that Barbarian makes an excellent class to take a few levels in for the Rose Gunner, especially if you get the Practiced Spellcaster feat, as the health really helps and the character has already once had his life saved by Rage (being in a situation with one spell left in his gun, 3 hp, an enemy right in his face at -8 hp with the Diehard feat, the Redeemer temporarily incapacitated, and the Arcane Smith at -2 and counting), not to mention the higher BaB. I have also discovered that, at 90 health, the Rose Gunner is far more limited by hp than anything else, as being hit by both enemies and using up spells really puts a drain on that health.

While I'm on that subject, the Arcane Smith class is weaker in combat than both a pure Artificer and a pure Wizard, but the ability to cast utility spells and, more importantly, the ability to use 1 minute casting time Infusions as a Full-Round action for the price of a spell make the class worth the loss of combat power. I'd say that so far the class seems balanced, and is pretty fun.
-----

To Djinn in Tonic:

I'd totally love to see a projectile-firing Symbiont that gains Aberrant powers from the connection, especially because of the setting that I am creating (the same one I mentioned above).

By the way, if anyone wants me to post the basics of the setting I'm whipping up somewhere, I could. To mention just a few things, it has gunslingers, samurai, both ToB Martial arts and regular fighting characters (with some experimental mechanics to help balance things), new Dragon Marks, and terrain modifiers that effect arcane spell casting. It takes some elements from Eberron, Dark Sun, and Oriental Adventures, and it draws some inspiration from gun slinging westerns (including the West meets East variety, as the presence of samurai suggests) and jungle adventures among other things.

[Lord_Gareth]

I'll be doing bang babies next, and maybe look into cybernetic gunner again since there has to a combo in there that will blow my mind. I would really some feedback on my psi-shot revolver though as I'm not sure the recent revamp was less confusing (or overly powerful).

Sorry; I only barely understand psionics, though I do like the system >.<

[DracoDei]

Draco: please finish cleaning up your post and I'll take a look.

How exactly do you mean? Spelling and grammer type stuff? Filling in all the pesky "little" details (mostly the fluff)? What?

[KaganMonk]

I did have a very nice evaluation for you, but the forum or computer ate it. Here's the long and short of it though.

Samb probably means how mechanics oriented everything is, as well as some of the things I've included below.

You seem to have mechanics written down, but the fluff in your head. (Ex. why do you need ride, and it can use Dimension Door?)

Your class abilities are very technical and not easy to digest on their own. (Ex. Why reference Far Shot in your Artillary Gnome when it would be easier to use if you just put down the mechanics in the class feature instead?)

Your class seems to be focused on two separate concepts instead of forging two concepts into a conclusive and logical whole.
- A long-winded Gnome riding a (blink-dog?)
- And a multi-crossbow user
The only real link between the two is a lengthy description of a crossbow, whereas a Gnome using a gun may fit better (gunpowder, alchemy, explosions, you get the idea).

At the moment, you seem to be getting the cart before the horse with Dimension Door. (You get tolerance and then you learn how to use it consistently?)

All in all, you might want to go through, piece by piece, and ask yourself "Why did I put this where I did, and is there anything I'm not telling the reader?"

[Pramxnim]

@ Samb: I was aiming to make a Megaman X class at first, but I decided to expand the idea a bit into ranged fighters in the X universe. This would then have to include different types of guns, and I just picked the less controversial ones for use in D&D (no machine guns or bazookas for example). Dual-wielding pistols is a trademark of the character Axl from X7 and X8, and the sample character reflects that fact. With different types of guns being made available, I was aiming to give players options with how to make their character.

The maneuvers and stances progression table I took from Krimm Blackleaf's oft used tables (I think it's the same type of table used in ToB) which I believe is the standard. Deviating from it would make the table harder to understand, methinks)

The Elemental Gunman Stance is meant to give more flexibility to the player. In the Expanded Megaman Universe (in particular, Megaman Zero and Megaman ZX universes) the main protagonist gains the ability to infuse his weapons with elemental damage, thus allowing a revisit into the old Rock-Paper-Scissors theme for boss fights without using the old system. This is what I tried to recreate here.

As for Charged Shot, the reason I explicitly stated only Swift, Standard or Move actions may be sacrificed is to prevent any sort of potential abuse (I haven't thought of specifics yet, but it's better to narrow it down). You get 3 "Action Points" in a round (1 swift, 1 move, 1 standard). Sure it makes MOVE actions more valuable, but swift actions see enough use already. The reason I decided to equate the 3 types of actions is because it's one of the easier ways to keep the mechanics of the ability simple (you sacrifice 1 action, you get 1 charge).
A full round action, contrary to popular belief, is separate from the three aforementioned actions. You can use a swift action and still use a full round action, thus contradicting that particular view. By using the above mechanic, I can safely implement the mechanics behind flux capacitor without having to iron out any clinks in the system. If I had gone with the ability to fire a fully charged shot within a round, I wouldn't be able to implement Flux Capacitor easily, and there would still be action inequivalency (3 standard actions is much more valuable than a full round action)

I don't understand Weapons of Legacy that well so I don't think I'll be implementing that. Also, the range of upgrades are too narrow right now to allow for the "poaching" of other people's upgrades. It could allow for overpowered characters (and that's certainly not my intention). Like I said in the end notes, the Variable Weapons System from Megaman is far too complicated for me to try to tackle in this small a time frame. I might make a generic "Reploid" base class later on to reflect it, but I make no promises.

@ Everyone else: No comments, peeps? It's a class meant for Warforged. WARFORGED :P

[Xallace]

Sorry I haven't done anyone the courtesy of review, folks. I've looked over them, I like a lot of what's been set forth... I guess I just haven't had the will to get all nitty-gritty with any of them.

Also, anyone who thinks all these classes together would make for the ultimate western law-bringing force, say "Aye."
We need to get a Producer on this idea stat.

[Lord_Gareth]

I dunno...I think the Bang Baby wouldn't be able to stop A. shooting off the Nameless Gunman's hat and B. laughing her ass off whenever the Rose Gunner ate HP to shoot. The others would have to kill her just to shut her up

[DracoDei]

I did have a very nice evaluation for you, but the forum or computer ate it. Here's the long and short of it though.

Thank you for your help.

As a future hint: I often save things to the clipboard, or even a text file (for more major posts) before posting the message, especially on these boards
.

Samb probably means how mechanics oriented everything is, as well as some of the things I've included below.

I have fixed that now to a large extend, adding in the history of the guild. Also put in (but haven't properly formatted) the "Protect Rider" feat, and the associated "Being Ridden" skill description (contained within the feat, since they are basically useless without eachother).
EDIT: The mechanics for the Blink Dog's HD and their non-replacable natuire (unlike a paladin's mount or a druid's Animal companion for instance).

You seem to have mechanics written down, but the fluff in your head. (Ex. why do you need ride, and it can use Dimension Door?)

Exactly right. The fluff I already know pretty exactly, so I don't need much feedback on it. The mechanics I am not sure about, so I put that up first so I could get feedback on it.

Your class abilities are very technical and not easy to digest on their own. (Ex. Why reference Far Shot in your Artillary Gnome when it would be easier to use if you just put down the mechanics in the class feature instead?)

Because it doesn't stack with the feat, but does stack with a Distance weapon and I consider it simpler to read if the word count is reduced by writing it as a reference rather than copying and pasting the wheel as it were.

Your class seems to be focused on two separate concepts instead of forging two concepts into a conclusive and logical whole.
- A long-winded Gnome riding a (blink-dog?)
- And a multi-crossbow user
The only real link between the two is a lengthy description of a crossbow, whereas a Gnome using a gun may fit better (gunpowder, alchemy, explosions, you get the idea).

The dog is so you can get to the right range to use Point-Blank Shot and still stay mostly out of melee. Plus Rule of Cool for teleporting dual-wielding insane tinker-gnomes* firing at close to gatling gun rates. Semi-auto fire-arms don't fit the setting as well as auto-cocker enchantments, and extra-dimensional bolt-clips.

*Yes, I know that the words "Tinker-Gnome" technically makes the word "insane" redundant, but I felt it was worth it for emphasis.

At the moment, you seem to be getting the cart before the horse with Dimension Door. (You get tolerance and then you learn how to use it consistently?)

The key thing that is missing is the description of that magic saddle you only have to chip in a paltry 7,500 GP towards. It lets the rider Blink and Dimension Door with the Dog. Because you only need the Dimension Door ability if you get separated from the dog, but being able to shoot right after a D-Door is very useful, you get the tolerance ability first.

All in all, you might want to go through, piece by piece, and ask yourself "Why did I put this where I did, and is there anything I'm not telling the reader?"

Yes, there was a lot I hadn't said yet(especially about things OTHER than the class features), but now I have said more, and I will say still more before the deadline unless I have a total failure of morale or organization.




One person suggested I drop the HD down to d4... whcih seems a bit odd for a fighter based class, but between Blink, the Protect Rider feat, good Fort and Reflex saves, and the ability to Dimension Door out of trouble, I am not SURE that it matters.

Edit: Someone else suggested I reduce the number of feats, because theoretically feats can be gotten with fighter levels and aren't very unique... I am unsure if I agree with that analysis.

[Samb]

I hope everyone has the same concept of firearms here. I have been using the MSRD, which has all the info on range, damage, threat range etc.

Bang babies:

Like the name, kinda cute but could give the wrong message.
Pretty steep requirements. Guess it has to be a fighter entry. The high reflex save seems off. I picture a walking arsenal lumbering around where you can't see her skin. i guess you could be making a character like Lady in Devil May Cry (mini-shirt made of bullet clips for the win). Still I think Fort should be a good save too.

I would like to see escape artist on the skill list as well. She needs to get all that armor off to bathe right?

Quickest draw is a nice opening class that encourages the PC to carry a lot of guns. Never unarmed is something that is underrated IMO. Improvised armor is so out there that its awesome. Using your explosives and firearms as armor? Its both brilliant and crazy. Twitch shooter...... I heart this feature. Anything moving in range takes a hit, great damage dealing and control (esp if you have sneak attack and cheap shot). Ranged disarm and sunder...... sorry but I've seen this way too much in this PrC contest already and it doesn't fit your flavor. Instead of sunder, shot depleted uranium that treats next attacks as touch attacks. The capstone is perfect for this PrC.

The main thing I really dislike about this PrC is all the ammo and weapons you need to keep track of. Not all my guns are going to be non-magical. Some will have this quality or that bonus. What about all my bullets and which gun is empty? I might want silver bullets for the rare chance I see a werewolf, and admantine for taking out a wall. Am I supposed to keep track of all these little pieces of metal? If it wasn't for this problem I would say this is an awesome bomber.


PS use Lady from Devil May Cry as your poster child!!!!!