paladin rogue or rogue paladin

[Mystic Muse]

making one of these for a 3.5 game I'm playing soon. is there any good way to optimize this character without making them too strong? my DM says I can only have it if it isn't too strong. if this is a bad build thank you for concern but I'm still in all probability going to make them.

I'm going to multiclass to rogue if I can as soon as I can cast the highest level paladin spells or maybe at twelth level once I can use great cleave. I generally try to make characters that can act for a few roles in case somebody else doesn't show up.

[RTGoodman]

Well, first I'd suggest not worrying about getting your highest-level Paladin spells. Paladin, really, isn't that great of a class to stick to after 2-5 levels. If you really need spells, you can either use a wand (for healing, etc.), or you can count on PrC advancement of divine casting to get your spellcasting to higher levels.

My suggestion would be to check in the Complete Divine and Complete Scoundrel books - there are a handful of things in both of them (specifically feats and prestige classes) that are almost vital to your build. Specifically, I think there's a feat made just for Rogue/Paladins, and there're at least a couple of PrCs that fit the flavor. There's Shadowbane Stalker in CDiv, and then Pelor's Shadow Guard or something in CS, either of which (if I remember correctly) might be good for you.

EDIT: Doresain's right - the Shadowbane PrCs (Stalker and Inquisitor) are both in Complete Adventurer, not Complete Divine. CDiv probably has some good stuff for you, though, as far as feats go.

[Doresain]

theres also the shadowbane inquisitor PrC in the complete adventurer thats a pretty good mix of rogue and paladin

[holywhippet]

Paladins get their level 4 spells at level 14 - by that time you don't have many levels left. Unless your campaign started at high levels the campaign could be mostly done by that point as well.

What are you hoping to gain from being a paladin/rogue? The sneak attack damage is handy, but it would have been better at low levels.

Don't forget armor check penalties - Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble all get Armor check penalties. Swim gets double armor check penalties. Most of those skills are rogue centric. Are you really planning to put your paladin in leather armour to avoid these penalties?

Personally I'd grab 3 levels of rogue for the 2d6 sneak attack damage and the skill point spends then switch to paladin. Use skill points to keep boosting whichever rogue skills you value the most - just forget about being sneaky.

[Kylarra]

I'd grab the first level (or couple levels) as a rogue for the skillpoints before switching to paladin. The added skillpoints will help, assuming you don't kill them with armor check penalties.

[Renegade Paladin]

Too strong? You'll have a hard time making it strong enough. Believe you me; it's one of my favorite concepts, but it's really hard to build to.

I'll post more on the subject tomorrow. Watch this space, but for now I'm way past time to go to sleep.

[Mystic Muse]

I was hoping to gain greater cleave at twelth level mainly. might not be necesarry but still good to have around.

so I should start with rogue and multiclass to paladin? guess there's nothing bad about being a lawful good rogue just got to make sure they aren't lawful stupid.

the reason I was building a paladin/rogue was so I could sort of replace some people who miss the session. if it isn't worth it that's fine. also I like the concept of a paladin rogue. just have to make sure I don't create a miko type character although in some cases she would be awful funny.

I'll consider all of your arguments and look at a few of those books if I can. the only problem I can foresee is I don't have the funds to buy them and my library might not have them.

[VelvetThunder]

A Paladin Rogue would be tough to roleplay. I like the concept though. Immunity to disease and bonuses on saves would definately help a rogue out, and both classes use Charisma, so it wouldn't relaly hurt the stat layout. So yeah I'd stay in Palidin only till 3rd level. You really don't need anything else from that class after that. You won't be using the mount too much as a rogue, and the spells aren't worth hanging around for.

[JeminiZero]

3 Rogue / X Cleric. Grab Able Learner (to keep up the Rogue skills) and Sacred Outlaw (Cleric Level stacks with Rogue to determine Sneak Attack bonus).

[Mystic Muse]

does a rogue count as a fighter for purpose of feats? and what about paladin? I REALLY want greatr cleave for the weaker monsters since I don't think there's a wizard in our group. also a paldin rogue isn't very hard to roleplay if you can find the right way to interpret lawful good. I'd prefer Chaotic good but can't do anything about that. also I hope my character gets a chance to kill a few of the evil gods. might be interesting battles.

oh and forgot to mention. I'm purposely avoiding the wizard wizard druid and cleric classes. also since a paladin isn't worth staying around for the spells would fighter be a better class?

[Dhavaer]

does a rogue count as a fighter for purpose of feats?

There's a rogue variant that gets feats instead of sneak attack, although that would bring up the question of why you wouldn't just be a fighter.

Why are you waiting until level 12 to get Great Cleave, anyway? Leaving aside that Great Cleave isn't very good, you can get Great Cleave at level 6 with any combination of Rogue and Paladin levels.

[Mystic Muse]

in the feat description it says "fighter' so I didn't think rogue could get it. like I said before I want to be able to kill a large group of low levels since I don't think the group has a wizard.

[Dhavaer]

The [Fighter] descriptor just means Fighters can take it as a bonus feat. It's would have 'Fighter level +x' in the prerequisites if it required the class.

The reason that Great Cleave isn't much good, by the way, is that things you can drop with one blow usually aren't powerful enough to be a threat to you, so taking a feat to kill them faster is a poor use of resources.

[Mystic Muse]

okay thanks for the addvice and any future advice I will get

[paddyfool]

If you want a rogue who's better at fighting, starting as a Rogue and then taking a 3-level dip in Swashbuckler might be more beneficial than the other options - it allows you to keep up your mobility based skills, while also getting Int to damage, full BAB, better HP, martial weapon proficiency, and Weapon Finesse as a free feat. But I like the fluff of this class idea, so as suggested before, you could go Rogue 3, Paladin 3, and then back to Rogue if you like. You won't be as skillful or sneaky as you might have been, but you will be better in straight-up combat and have better saves. Up to you.

[Mystic Muse]

of course it's up to me. that's why I'm so adamant about being a rogue paladin.

[Narmoth]

If you're going for great cleave, and sneak attacks, why not take blackguard?
The build stinks, but has some fun parts, mainly summon dead spells (from Libris Mortis, and Complete Divine I think)
You get smite good in stead of smite evil though. We homebrewed it so that I could smite any living in stead, but lost my fiendish servant. You could suggest that for your dm
And yes, the blackguard have to be evil. But you could play it as a raving lunatic, or more like a proud, uncaring black knight, inspired by the templar Brian de Boagilbert (spelling?) from the book Ivanhoe
With the alter one, you can function in good group in a shades of grey -morality world

[Mystic Muse]

thanks but I can't be a blackguard. there is only two games I've ever played where I could be an evil character because other times it makes me sick. also this is a good campaign so blackguard wouldn't work

[Narmoth]

In the group I'm playing in, the rest of the players are neutral. I'm the one who started as blackguard, and I've been both the most evil and the most good in the campaign. As I said,you don't need to kill civilians to be evil.
I simply have a wider repertoire of things I can do when dealing with evil.
Then again, I rather quicly became Neutral Good (shouldn't raise dead henchmen just because I have the money, and I really should have offed the child that tried to rob me)
Also, the blackguard doesn't loose any powers if he stops being evil. There's no falling mechanics for him, like it's for the pally.
One of the game mechanic evil you can do without being really evil is casting evil spells. Sadism and Masochism are some really nasty attack boosting spells from BoVD. Then there's blade of blood or something, which stacks with divine sacrifice.
With these spells I'm able to get +20 to hit (that's +40dmg on power attack with greatsword) and 8d6 extra dmg (for the price of 15 hp dmg to yourself) on my attacks on the 2nd round. (I'm ecl 15)

But you might want to check out Complete Scoundrel and Book of Exalted Deeds for prestige class alternatives that better combine paladin abilities and roguiness.

[Darrin]

does a rogue count as a fighter for purpose of feats? and what about paladin? I REALLY want greatr cleave for the weaker monsters since I don't think there's a wizard in our group. also a paldin rogue isn't very hard to roleplay if you can find the right way to interpret lawful good. I'd prefer Chaotic good but can't do anything about that. also I hope my character gets a chance to kill a few of the evil gods. might be interesting battles.

Paladins get very few feats. I strongly recommend against taking Great Cleave. Yes, it is undeniably cool when it works, but the odds of you ever getting to USE it are incredibly low. You want to take feats that you know you're going to use in every battle or every round.

Power Attack is something that you can use every round. Cleave is a good feat because the odds are good you'll get to use it once or twice every encounter. Weapon Focus and Dodge aren't good feats because a +1 bonus spread over 20ish levels just isn't much to brag about, but you at least know you'll be using them every round. In order to use Great Cleave, you have to be surrounded by multiple lightweight cannon fodder that you can down in a single hit. At 12th level, what are the odds that the DM is going to surround you with eight 1st level goblins?

However, there's an easy way to get Great Cleave without wasting a feat on it. There's a 2nd level Sorcerer/Wizard spell in the Spell Compendium called heroics. It grants the recipient a fighter bonus feat that they meet the prerequisites for. Buy a potion of heroics for 300 GP. This should be affordable by 4th level, which is the earliest you can qualify for Great Cleave. After that, whenever you see a combat with a lot of low-level cannon fodder, you can quaff your potion and Great Cleave your way through the battlefield.

If you want to cast heroics yourself, there's also a feat in Champions of Valor called Sword of the Arcane Order that allows you to prepare wizard spells in your paladin spell slots.

Now, as far as combining Rogue and Paladin... you might want to take a look at the Gray Guard PrC in Complete Scoundrel. It doesn't progress sneak attack, but does have some other neat features for a Paladin that doesn't want to break the law but does want to bend 'em a little. There's also a feat in Complete Adventurer, Devoted Inquisitor, that makes multiclassing between Paladin and Rogue a little easier, although I'm not sure how often the "daze foes when you smite and sneak attack them" would get used.

If you want a Chaotic Good Paladin, then there are a couple official paladin variants out there. Unearthed Arcana has the Paladin of Freedom. Dragon #310 has a CG variant called the Avenger.

Pick up Battle Blessing (Complete Champion) as soon as you can cast spells. This allows you to cast your Paladin spells as swift actions. Smiting Spell (from PHBII) can also be good if you can combine it with Divine Metamagic. This allows you to cast a touch spell as a swift action and still attack/full attack in the same round, discharging the spell when you hit.

[Mystic Muse]

once again thank you for the advice. however don't know if I'll be able to get all these books. stupid five hold limit I DARN YOU TO HECK FOR I AM PHIL PRINCE OF INSUFFICIENT LIGHT!

[TheCountAlucard]

Rogue is indeed best to start with, just for the sake of skill points. A Rog 5/Pal 5 with INT 10 has 74 skill points, while a Pal 5/Rog 5 has 48. Plus, a Rog 5/Pal 5 can keep taking levels in Paladin if he so desires, while a Pal 5/Rog 5 can't.

[Kaiyanwang]

Paladins get very few feats. I strongly recommend against taking Great Cleave. Yes, it is undeniably cool when it works, but the odds of you ever getting to USE it are incredibly low. You want to take feats that you know you're going to use in every battle or every round.

I think that you, generally speaking, are right about GC, but in some campaings DMs use a lot of small enemies coupeld with few, fast and smart bigger ones.

If they sinergize them well, I've seen a lot of useful dispatch the smaller ones fast. Anyway, you can do it with an area spell, so..

Other two istances: a big charge (lot of damage, and 3+ enemies dispatched but you have to play smart or be lucky) and epic levels... Vorpal + Devastating critical, a slaughter.

Said this, yes, better take the feat effects in other ways.

BTW, I'd second battle blessing. Great feat!

[Mystic Muse]

hmmm. everybody seems to be making very good arguments. BRAIN BREAKING. EVERYBODY KNOWS SO MUCH MORE THAN ME. I DARN YOU ALL TO SIT LISTENING TO COMPUITER CODE YOU CAN"T UNDERSTAND FOR 15 MINUTES!

[Riffington]

You need either a feat or a PrC to make it work, because otherwise the Paladin's skill list kills you. So either Able Learner to let you put Paladin skill ranks into Rogue Skills, Devoted to let you intersperse Rogue levels with your Paladin levels, or a PrC.

It sounds like you don't always know what players are going to be missing. If so, consider the following build.
Rogue 3/Paladin 2 (or Rogue 1/Paladin 4 or 5). Take Able Learner. Now go into Chameleon. You pretty much wanted all the requirements anyway. And whatever player doesn't show up, you can fill that role. Oh, today I'm fighting more; tomorrow spells. And if you want to try out Great Cleave you can take it with your Chameleon feat, and change it if you don't end up liking it.

[Darrin]

once again thank you for the advice. however don't know if I'll be able to get all these books. stupid five hold limit I DARN YOU TO HECK FOR I AM PHIL PRINCE OF INSUFFICIENT LIGHT!

Paladin of Freedom is available online, just check the Unearthed Arcana section of the SRD:

http://srd.realmspire.com/unearthedC...er-and-tyranny

Oh, I forgot... there is a Paladin-friendly PrC that advances sneak attack. Skullclan Hunter in the Miniatures Handbook. No spell progression, however, so you'd only get 1st level paladin spells. Even so, that gives you access to wands of CLW and lesser restoration. Rogue 3/Paladin 5/Skullclan Hunter 10 might be a pretty decent build.

If books are limited... five hold limit, I assume you mean some kind of library? I'd probably rank them thusly:

1) Spell Compendium (heroics, and a bunch of other good paladin spells)
2) Complete Champion (Battle Blessing, Devotion feats)
3) Champions of Valor (Sword of the Arcane Order)
4) Complete Adventurer (Staggering Strike, Devoted Inquisitor)
5) Complete Divine (Divine Metamagic)

[elonin]

You need either a feat or a PrC to make it work, because otherwise the Paladin's skill list kills you. So either Able Learner to let you put Paladin skill ranks into Rogue Skills, Devoted to let you intersperse Rogue levels with your Paladin levels, or a PrC.

Maybe I'm wrong about this but able learner is a first level only feat.

[wadledo]

Maybe I'm wrong about this but able learner is a first level only feat.

Yea, so?

[Mystic Muse]

yeah my library has a five hold limit. doubt it'll get revoked any time soon.

[wadledo]

yeah my library has a five hold limit. doubt it'll get revoked any time soon.

So what books do you have access to, or are you talking about what Darrin said above, I.e. any five books?