Leveling Rate 3.5/4th

[Lord_Xaedien]

This is just a quick question. I got bored and started listening to the D&D podcast that penny arcade and Scott Kurtz did. The DM wizards provided made a comment that threw me off. He said "I am DMing two groups right now, one has reached lvl 6, and they have been playing for about 6 months, so they have leveled pretty quickly."

This comment threw me off. I play weekly, and we tend to try and level once a session (yeah, we fudge xp) I was just curious how other groups viewed leveling in 3.5/4th, to see if my group is insane or something.

[Frosty]

I want them to level at the speed of plot, but generally once every 4 sessions or so.

[sonofzeal]

I do "once every second session" as a general rule of thumb (I don't use explicit XP at all). LA buyoff generally puts you one session behind for a few levels, as does significant amounts of crafting. Anyone who's two levels or more behind the highest automatically levels up at the end of each session until they're one level behind the highest, and then progress as normal.

[Crazy Scot]

I would say it depends upon a lot of factors: number of PCs in the party, how well balanced the party is (good balance means they can take on higher level threats, thus leveling quicker), the level of the encounters they are going against, and the length of each session. All of these things come into play with this question, but the most important thing to remember is rule #1 of all RPGs (at least as I see it): Have fun. If everyone is happy with the progression of their PCs, then there isn't any need to worry. If one person isn't happy but the rest of the group is, talk to them. If everyone is upset, then maybe it is time to relook at how things are going. But in the end, the DM is right, but don't forget that this is supposed to be a fun time hanging out with friends above all else. Numbers, character sheets, dice, food, etc, these are the minor details, having fun should always be the focus.

[Kaiyanwang]

Previous group rate: 1 level once 5.5 sessions (40 levels)

Current group rate: 1 level once 8.8 (10 gestalt levels), but consider that pre epic, I assign - 30% XP*, after 21st level +30% (DMG).

* In thruth, I don't assign XP but I see the amount of encounters, RPG and fight, I see if they are balanced, if players did something significative plot-wise, and then LEVEL UP (HOOORAAY!).

[Lord_Xaedien]

Wow, that seems really slow to me! But our group is just now getting the intestinal fortitude to run longer campaigns... so leveling quickly is the only way to experience higher level mobs.

[Kaiyanwang]

Wow, that seems really slow to me! But our group is just now getting the intestinal fortitude to run longer campaigns... so leveling quickly is the only way to experience higher level mobs.

At the opposite, I'm enjoying throwing at them goblins, orcs and occasional frost giants now, because I was tired of legions of Devils, Swarms of Pit Fiends + Malebranche + Parragon things allied with 5 kind of Elder Chromatic Dragons.

I like the different feeleng of the game at different levels, but AT THE MOMENT I'm tired with epic

Anyway, at least my gaming group find a lot of things to do out of combat (in the current campaing even more, is crafting - trade oriented and they have a bard).

IMHO, combat is a part of the game. Fun, very important in a lot of campaings, and needs to be detailed to avoid the "I hit you - no you don't - yes I do" issue... but it's a part.

IMHO, those who think that D&D it's all kill things and take their stuff, lose something from the game

[bosssmiley]

I use Berin Kinsman's session-based XP replacement. Basically: # of sessions/adventures to reach next level = current level. That'll get you from level 1st to 5th level in about 10 'episodes', then on to 10th lvl after ~50, then 14th lvl in ~100, 17th in ~150, and ultimately to 20th in about 200.

Benefits of this mechanics:

• Suddenly 20th level is a big deal again, not a <nerdwhine> build capstone level </nerdwhine>.
• Regular players (who are, let's be honest, the mainstay of any campaign worth the name) forge ahead; casuals fall behind. This is as it should be IMO: those who invest more time and effort in the game should reap the benefits thereof.
• This mechanic also fits in with my (old school-influenced) personal philosophy about levelling: you should fly up the initial levels, then slowly taper off in advancement rate as you become ever more powerful. None of this n encounters/lvl stuff thanks.

Levelling once a session? Been there, tried that. Too hectic! This weeks 'kewl new toy' ability is next weeks "ho hum". Where's the sense of achievement?

[Tsotha-lanti]

We play maybe once a month, so leveling each session is pretty much a must.

That's D&D, though. In Rolemaster, such a pace was never even remotely possible. The characters leveled, on average, twice per year. Seriously - the campaign went on actively for maybe 5-7 years total, and the highest-level PC was something like 10th, while the others were 7th through 9th or so, depending on player activity (and luck, and ability; the highest-level PC's player was both the most active, and the deadliest, playing a very focused stealth archer).

[Lord_Xaedien]

Levelling once a session? Been there, tried that. Too hectic! This weeks 'kewl new toy' ability is next weeks "ho hum". Where's the sense of achievement?

If i got my sense of achievement out of leveling I wouldn't play D&D.

[Sallera]

Well, it's the first campaign I've run, and all the players are as new as I am, but they've been leveling about once per session. However, they're not big on non-combat activities, and our average session is 7-8 hours long, so this may not be all that unusual. <<;;

[Toliudar]

In person, I tend to settle into one level up per four sessions. None of my players plan ahead more than a couple levels, and levelling is done at the table, so I don't like to take too much time away. PBP is even tricker, but seems to work out to about once per 4-6 months of play, over all.

[DarknessLord]

Hmm, I think my players in 4e are leveling once every other session, then again, I do like throwing encounters above their level at them. *shrug*

[ColdSepp]

In one group, we level every 3-4 combat sessions, though there is an occasional session of just RP that gives XP (not skill challenges, just interparty stuff). The average is every 4 sessions, which works out to once a month.

My other game we level at the speed of the plot, AKA whenever the DM says so.

Both games are 4E.

[Oracle_Hunter]

If i got my sense of achievement out of leveling I wouldn't play D&D.

That... was rather the point of having levels in the first place. A marker of your accomplishments and offering "treats" at certain intervals.

In 2E, 10th level is when you got powerful followers (generally) - which are sweet.

In 3E every level granted you access to new abilities, training in skills, and the ability to learn an entire new class.

In 4E levels give you access to new tiers of power which can be used to do more amazing feats.

Certainly, leveling shouldn't be the whole of the D&D experience, but it has always been a fairly important part of it.

I believe Bosssmiley's point is that leveling that quickly makes levels lose all meaning. In 11 sessions (is that even an Arc for you?) they will already be Paragon characters - facing dramatically new foes and experiencing a different scope of action. Aside from making it really difficult to keep PCs challenged during an adventure (why are the Ogres hanging out back while the Goblins are in front? ) you miss out on a lot of the possibilities that different power Tiers provide, story-wise.

That said, I don't think there is really a "perfect" rate of advancement. The 4E books give solid guidelines for the strength of encounters, number of encounters per level, and so on; but you should always adjust it to the taste of your players. My players, for instance, feel that leveling every 2-3 sessions (for a weekly game) is too slow - so I sometimes juice up Quest XP and throw in more Skill Challenges and "quick" chances for some spare XP. It gives them time to run through an adventure per level (roughly) and get used to their power set without getting antsy about a new power.

Particularly the Paladin - he hates the 2nd Level Utilities so much

[Lord_Xaedien]

I didn't mean to insult the idea of leveling, I just play an RP heavy group. Character success in game is HUGE for us. In college with some other groups, we played more standard D&D type campaigns, and I just found it less enjoyable.

Now I will say that 4th edition has made leveling feel more significant, if only because our battles are normally highly cinematic in description, and opening up some higher level encounter powers feels lovely. Of course, that's part of the problem, and why I postulate we level fast... because battle description in 4th can get old if you have no new tricks to pull out.

We also tend to play 12 hour sessions, not sure how that compares to other people.

[Oracle_Hunter]

We also tend to play 12 hour sessions, not sure how that compares to other people.

Well, that certainly explains that! My weekly games run 3-4 hours, so my PCs level at roughly the same rate - once per 12 hours of gaming.

[DarknessLord]

XD, funny I think my sessions are about 5~6 hours of actual play (time from when it's supposed to start to end is longer but we never start right away and take breaks to eat and stuff), so I guess I'm on or near the 12 hours/level mark too...

That actually seems like a better reference towards leveling speed then how often per session...

[Wizard_Tom]

Particularly the Paladin - he hates the 2nd Level Utilities so much

Yeah Paladin Utilities as a whole have just left me unimpressed. Seriously, once per day I can take the damage one adjacent ally would take? And that is supposed to be awesome how? Personally, I went with Sacred Circle when I played my paladin, just because it seemed the only one sort of worth being a daily.

[Hzurr]

Let's see. Current group I'm DMing is 4E. We meet 1/week (with the exclusion of a few weeks at Christmas/New Years, and a few random weeks here and there that didn't work for people's schedules), and our sessions are usually 4 hours long (which really means 3 hours of actual play time).

We started in...late August of last year with level 1, and hit level 7 a couple of weeks ago (This is with 7 PCs). This is a little bit slow, for us, but not significantly slower. I'm following the xp/encounter rules pretty closely (with occational bumps up and down if an encounter was much easier/much harder than I anticipated).

[Who_Da_Halfling]

Personally, I've been levelling the party rather haphazardly. Since we're definitely coming to a story-close at the end of the semester, I've sort of just been trying to make sure they're at a level at the end where I can make a BBEG who is challenging and fun to fight.

I feel like it would be ok to stay at the same level for a while, but only if you got to skip past the first couple of levels, or at least do them quickly. There's a limit to the interesting CR 1 and 2 encounters you can throw at the party, so spending a month fighting small groups of goblins and orcs would get boring really quickly. Not to mention the fact that low level characters can just do less to begin with.

-JM