[3.5] Need a gem/precious stones based economic system for elves in my setting.

[newbDM]

Hey again,

I am currently working on making currency systems unique to different races (and maybe even subraces) for my homebrewed world. My inspiration for this was a documentary I have seen on the Discovery Channel a few times, which details the history of money, and has a chapter which talked about all the many things people have used as money throughout recorded history.

Though certain merchants/governments might keep around an amount of currency from neighboring nations they regularly trade with, and adventurers may have their pouches filled with treasure in many different types of currencies, for the most part I want it so each race has a certain currency based around thing they find beautiful, or simply desire.


So far I have done the following:

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Dwarves: Dwarves use the standard PHB coin system based on precious metals (cp, sp, gp, and pp). In fact, dwarves being the second race to come inhabit Origin (my homebrewed world) they invented the system (the first race were elves). Humans would later adopt this system as their own, due to their obsession with precious ores.


Gnomes: Gnomes adopted the dwarves currency system.


Goblins: Goblins have a very simply bartering based economical system within their tribes. If one goblin wants something another has, and he/she just happens to posses something that goblin craves, then a deal is struck.

The value of something can vary significantly in such a system, especially in times of splendor and/or hardship for the tribe. If there has been a drought, and the tribe has not been able to pull off any successful raids, goblins quickly realize that you can not eat that pretty gold scepter you took of that dead merchant a few solar cycles back.

However, if goblins know another type of creature craves a certain type of loot (such as those little round shinny disks humans carry), they might hoard them hoping to barter them for something else down the road.

In a bartering system such as this charisma, along with a quick tongue are vital in scoring a "good deal", or the "better deal" of the transaction.


Halflings: Halflings have no racial currency system of their own. Instead halfling caravans carry in their wagons some amount of all the currencies they are likely to encounter during migrations, especially that of the major races/powers in a given area.

Halfling caravans which have settled into a permanent "bank community" quickly adopt the currency of the larger community they have chosen to settle near to.


Kobolds: Also being a mining race, kobolds naturally evolved the same precious metals system the dwarves did.


Orcs: Orcs have a slightly more complex currency system than goblins, with different levels of importance/value, though it is still essentially a bartering system.

Below is a list of what items most orcs generally consider to be worth more than others. Some categories may have further subcategories detailing what qualities may make an item of said category even more or less valuable for an orc.

1. Metal Weapons.
   As an almost exclusively warrior culture, orcs consider their weapon(s) their livelihood, and prize it(them) above all else.
   
   Since orcs lack the ability to forge metals, and have no racial talent or inclination to tunnel beneath the earth for ore, their societies are universally incapable of producing their own forged weapons. However, being a race of warriors, raiders, and slave takers, and given their fast reproductive rate compared to he long-lived races this has yet to proven to be a major hurdle to the orc race.
   
   But since a metal weapon can only make an orc even more deadly, orcs will naturally jump at an opportunity to obtain one.
   
   Most metal weapons exchanging hands within an orc community are war trophies taken from fallen enemies on the battlefield. Though never purposely made for an orc's frame in mind, most orcs quickly adapt to their new "toys".
   
   Orcs will occasionally sell their services to other races in exchange for forged weapons. For this reason many orc units were seen accompanying human armies during the Last Great Human War, at a time when human numbers had dwindled throughout the planes.
   
   Exceptions:
   -Though orcs often come into conflict with elven armies (especially on the continent of Flanes), orcs find elven weapons to be too small and finicky to wield. This reduces their value significantly to an orc.
   
   For these reasons elf weapons have traditionally been traded to a class of orc merchant known as a "Deal Maker", who would travel to human lands to trade them off for "better" items (weapons, armor, gear, whatever), since humans seemed to loved these worthless elf toys.
   
   Since the collapse of the last human city-states, and humanity's widespread disappearance the once wealthy and prestige (by orc standards) Deal Makers have been desperately trying to find new markets for their elf toys. Though most are failing, some have found profitable trade from an unexpected source: the elves' darker cousins. When these new trading partners spontaneously approached them from the dark underworld the Deal Makers believed it to be a godsend from the orc god's themselves.
   
   Preferred:
   -While orcs would literally kill for any forged weapon they could properly wield, nothing makes an orc drool quite like a dwarven made one. Dwarven weapons are arguably the deadliest melee weapons in existence, and teh orcs are quite aware of this
   
   And considering how rare they are to come by (since a dwarf is such a freaking difficult thing to kill!), they also serve as a status symbol within an orc community, especially if the orc has a gruesome trophy proving he personally killed the dwarf he took it from.
   
   
2. Metal Armor.
   Like metal weapons, metal armor is highly prized within orc society. But unlike metal weapons, few creatures have a physical build similar to an orc, meaning that scavenging a usable piece of metal armor from a battlefield is a rare event.
   
   Traditionally orc obtained fitting suits of metal armor either as payment for serving as mercenaries for other races (capable of forging metals), or by dealing with a Deal Maker. Since the fall of humanity both these options have become much more difficult.
   
   
3. Slaves.
   Slaves usually make the bulk of an orc community's workforce, and perform all the undesirable tasks such as agriculture, cooking, caring for orc offspring, organization and maintenance of the orc's property, etc, etc, etc.
   
   
   Exceptions:
   -Orcs have learned that elf slaves are rarely worth the trouble. Elven communities (especially the more militaristic High Elves) always seem to know when an orc community got a new elf slave, and attempt relentlessly to free their friends. Even if they repeatedly fail, their kind is way to snobbish and "proud" to be of any use, and are extremely hard to break in.
   
   For these reasons a captured slave is usually killed immediately. However, some orc tribes have found that elves are willing to trade with their Deal Makers for their kind's return, even if they are currently at war. Since the orcs love the idea of getting paid by their enemies to just keep fighting them, and with the weapons and armor they paid them with no less, most tribes are usually happy to safely return their captives.
   
   -Dwarves are as hard to break in as elves, perhaps even more so. But dwarf clans won't pay to get them back (they say it is "shameful" and a "dishonor", whatever that means), and they are less skilled at stealing them back, so they keep them alive.
   
   
   Preferred:
   -Goblins make wonderful slaves an orc will tell you. They are easy to break-in, they are even stupider than your average orc, they are to disorganized (and usually nuts) to ever pull off a successful revolt, and once they get used to their new roles they love to kiss up!
   
   
4. Flint or Bone Weapons, Leather or Hide Armor, Trained Hunting/War Beasts, and Food.
   Orcs remain on a flint and bone level of toolmaking. They are capable of tanning leathers and hides for armor and loincloths. They also have enough woodworking skill to build huts, crude defensive walls, and chariots (more like carts..) to attach to the dire boars they train for battle and keep for pets. This is for the most part the pinnacle of their technology.
   
   These items are the everyday currency of or communities.
   
   
5. Anything Else.
   Anything else an orc would possibly trade for falls in this category.

Again, in a bartering system such as this a quick tongue and some charisma can greatly increase one's dominance in a trade.

For the elves I immediately got the idea of gems and/or other precious stones. It just makes sense to me, since gems/precious are beautiful, sparkly things, which are usually worked by seasoned artisans into works of art in themselves.

And, to be honest, I won't lie in that I was a bit inspired by the Ruples of the Zelda games...


Anyway, how would you all work this into an economical/currency system? I was thinking perhaps using the various gems/precious stones from the DMG treasure table as bases, but I am not sure what you can really get out of that for a balanced economical system.


Also, based on the art and fluff of the avariels (who are much more common and integral in my homebrewed setting), I want to make their system based on precious crystals. Perhaps kinds found in the mountains they build their citadels on? I keep getting an image of a beautiful crystal reflecting in the unfiltered light from atop the mountain tops, and while the avariels fly through the crystal blue skies. Would any of you have any dieas for this as well?



As always, thank you in advance for any and all help!

[Waspinator]

The easy way to do it would be to pick some gems you like (emeralds, sapphires, whatever) and say that there are standard sizes that each is cut to and it just so happens that, go from least to most valuable jewel, they are equal to the standard D&D copper, silver, and gold pieces.

[iain62a]

Would a currency based on precious stones really be viable for any race?

Unless the Elves are a race of miners, I don't see how they could get enough gems for their purposes.

Even if they were miners they'd struggle to get enough of them.

Unless gems come from somewhere else in this setting, like trees or something.

That said, I like the idea of gems as a system of currency, and it does fit the Elves very well.

I don't know about what value each gem would have in relation to other gems though.

[Satyr]

If you want to combine the idea of gems and trees to a synthesis, use amber as the basic currency material.

[bosssmiley]

Lazy DM: Semi-precious stones perhaps? I mean, there's a whole table in the DMG with prices.

Thinking Hat on: You could play up the magpie-ishness of elves by having them use stained glass as a basis of currency. Don't put these delicate pieces in with your horrible klonking metallic coins though. Instant depreciation in value.

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If you want to play up elven magical nature and love of aesthetic beauty you could give them a currency based on tiny ephemeral object d'arts embedded in glass to effectively freeze them in time. Different interesting-to-look-at things - like coral, or preserved flowers, or leaves from particular trees, or tiny jade statuettes, or swirls of metal, or tiny repeating illusions - could be different denominations. Different colours or combinations of objects might even have different cultural connotations.

Of course, thanks to each and every coin being a unique object, Elven numismatism would be a particularly demanding pursuit...

[Olo Demonsbane]

The only real way for this to work is to flood the world economy with gemstones...unless you prefer all of the elves to be ultra-rich millionares...

Then you come up with values with gems. Here are some sample ones:
Ruby Chip: 1cp
Emerald Chip: 2cp
Diamond Chip: 3cp
Ruby Sparkler: 1sp
Emerald Sparkler: 2sp
Diamond Sparkler: 3sp
Minor Ruby: 1gp
Minor Emerald: 2gp
Minor Diamond: 3gp
Ruby: 10gp
Emerald: 20gp
Diamond: 30gp

A "Chip" is just a very small part of a gemstone. A "Sparkler" is slightly larger than a chip, worked so that it sparkles. A "Minor" gem is the standard coin for expensive items, and the normal gemstones are the highest currency.

[kamikasei]

The basic problem is that you can take a bunch of coins of a precious metal, melt them together, and the value of the resulting lump is equal to the sum of the values of the coins used to make it. You can take a lump of ore, refine it into the pure metal, and lose no value by dividing it up into coins.

By contrast, gems don't scale linearly in value. The larger a pure gem, the rarer and therefore more valuable it is, so that cutting it into smaller gems causes it to lose value. Thus, it's much harder to standardize values and much harder to use them as a fair currency (people will be much more likely to overpay).

I would suggest going for a completely different type of economy with the elves. Basically you have some founded on precious metals (dwarves, gnomes, kobolds) and some on more-or-less-sophisticated barter systems that are clearly less advanced than the metal-based ones. What if elves had a different basis all together? Maybe they trade things like gems externally, but among themselves they use a gift/reputation economy where the precise value of any good wouldn't matter so much as how generous you were being by giving it to whoever needed it? It would help that you're talking about a long-lived, slowly-changing population where people could know each other well and develop and track reputations easily.

[Lost Demiurge]

You could use amber. You know, fossilized tree sap?

I imagine that elves wouldn't have a shortage of that, all things considered. Maybe have things stuck in the amber too, to increase the value...

[hewhosaysfish]

And, to be honest, I won't lie in that I was a bit inspired by the Ruples of the Zelda games...

Unless the Elves are a race of miners, I don't see how they could get enough gems for their purposes.

Even if they were miners they'd struggle to get enough of them.

Unless gems come from somewhere else in this setting, like trees or something.

Cutting long grass and smashing pots?

[bosssmiley]

What if elves had a different basis all together? Maybe they trade things like gems externally, but among themselves they use a gift/reputation economy where the precise value of any good wouldn't matter so much as how generous you were being by giving it to whoever needed it? It would help that you're talking about a long-lived, slowly-changing population where people could know each other well and develop and track reputations easily.

Elven whuffie? Nice one.

[newbDM]

Would a currency based on precious stones really be viable for any race?

Unless the Elves are a race of miners, I don't see how they could get enough gems for their purposes.

Even if they were miners they'd struggle to get enough of them.

Unless gems come from somewhere else in this setting, like trees or something.

That said, I like the idea of gems as a system of currency, and it does fit the Elves very well.

I don't know about what value each gem would have in relation to other gems though.

Well, in my world's/setting's history elves and dwarves were the first two sentient races to inhabit it, and spent quite a few millienia alone. Naturally they developed trade, with the dwarves bringing the elves at the surface things such as raw ores, precious metals, and precious stone (and perhaps crystals?), while the elves brought them the bounty of the land such as furs, natural herbs to brew their ale, medicinal ingredients, and meats.

This trade has continued to the current day, and now that the age of dwarves and elves has begun to return after the "human plague" burnt itself out, old dwarven mines are being reclaimed, and ancient trade routes are being repaved.

So I do not see much of a shortage when it comes to precious stones. And since gems do not rust or age, I imagine they would remain passing from elven hand to elven hand indefinitely?

[newbDM]

Cutting long grass and smashing pots?

Thinking Hat on: You could play up the magpie-ishness of elves by having them use stained glass as a basis of currency. Don't put these delicate pieces in with your horrible klonking metallic coins though. Instant depreciation in value.

Spoiler

Show

If you want to play up elven magical nature and love of aesthetic beauty you could give them a currency based on tiny ephemeral object d'arts embedded in glass to effectively freeze them in time. Different interesting-to-look-at things - like coral, or preserved flowers, or leaves from particular trees, or tiny jade statuettes, or swirls of metal, or tiny repeating illusions - could be different denominations. Different colours or combinations of objects might even have different cultural connotations.

Of course, thanks to each and every coin being a unique object, Elven numismatism would be a particularly demanding pursuit...

Wow. I really like these ideas. Especially the stained glass one, which the picture you posted makes me think on the level of beauty/etc I was planning for elf currency. However, it seems like these would be too complicated to work out into a table for either the playets or the DM. The glass could work like that, but I feel I would be too tempted to have one of the player's goblin slave throw a rock at their sack-o-loot, causing the PCs to cry, and sharp objects getting tossed my way out-of-character...

The only real way for this to work is to flood the world economy with gemstones...unless you prefer all of the elves to be ultra-rich millionares...

Why exactly? Wouldn't it be similar to using gold, silver, and platinum?

But then, I guess the typical elf or dwarf would be richer than your average human or orc.

Then you come up with values with gems. Here are some sample ones:
Ruby Chip: 1cp
Emerald Chip: 2cp
Diamond Chip: 3cp
Ruby Sparkler: 1sp
Emerald Sparkler: 2sp
Diamond Sparkler: 3sp
Minor Ruby: 1gp
Minor Emerald: 2gp
Minor Diamond: 3gp
Ruby: 10gp
Emerald: 20gp
Diamond: 30gp

A "Chip" is just a very small part of a gemstone. A "Sparkler" is slightly larger than a chip, worked so that it sparkles. A "Minor" gem is the standard coin for expensive items, and the normal gemstones are the highest currency.

Oooh!

I love the "Chip", "Sparkler", and "Minor" idea. What I was originally planning to do was select gems from the table in the DMG, and assign set values instead of a random d-something value. The problem was that the lowest valued gems cost a minimum, so there was nothing to use for the cp and sp level of value/trade. These concepts might be able to make it work.

The basic problem is that you can take a bunch of coins of a precious metal, melt them together, and the value of the resulting lump is equal to the sum of the values of the coins used to make it. You can take a lump of ore, refine it into the pure metal, and lose no value by dividing it up into coins.

By contrast, gems don't scale linearly in value. The larger a pure gem, the rarer and therefore more valuable it is, so that cutting it into smaller gems causes it to lose value. Thus, it's much harder to standardize values and much harder to use them as a fair currency (people will be much more likely to overpay).

I see. Is the ability to be able to fuse together and divide up the currency's value again and again vital? You can not do that with dollar bills.

But I am thinking, since elves are so long-lived, and gems are so durable, wouldn't that mean that there would not be much need to cut up and/or combine gems? I mean, when they trade with a mining race (such as the dwarves) for gems, would they be trading for different qualities and sizes? So there would be "minor" (as suggested above) and regular/standard sized precious stones circulating in elven communities?

And if you throw in the above suggested "chip" and "sparkler" level of the currency, then you do not need to cut up bigger gems to make small currency, but instead when the bigger gems are worked/crafted you naturally end up with small ships an fragments that become "chips", or if they are big enough are themselves worked into "sparklers"?

You could use amber. You know, fossilized tree sap?

I imagine that elves wouldn't have a shortage of that, all things considered. Maybe have things stuck in the amber too, to increase the value...

I guess that could be worked into the system/table, but isn't amber something far too common and easily obtained in an elven forest to be of any value? Or to common and easily accessible to quickly inflate an elven ecconomy?

[Fuzzatron]

Instead of trying to make a list of how much specific gems are worth, elves could simply be extremely familiar with the value of gems based on kind and cut. This alternative would hardly change your game, in that you would still use the same gems in the DMs guide; elves would simply choose to store/carry their wealth in the form of gems instead of coins. To solve the problem of actual gem worth (so players and NPCs don't get ripped off so badly) just give all elves a hefty racial bonus to appraise checks only when trying to assess the value of a gem.

Problems with this system include: Making change mostly. Elves would find is to their advantage to carry a few cp, sp, and gp for cheap things like beer and rope. While writing the 1st paragraph I thought of another but then forgot, nevermind.

[arguskos]

Concerning gemstone currency... if the elves have been using gem currency, wouldn't they have developed spells to seamlessly recombine gemstones? That would make an awful lot of sense. I figure that being a gem cutter in elven society would be a very important job, part magician, part banker, part jeweler.

[Mr.Bookworm]

I really like the amber idea, actually. It's in plenty supply, and is fairly durable when solid.

What I would do is have "presses", where the amber is smashed into sheets. Then the elves imprint designs (complex, of course, both to look pretty and to protect against counterfeiting) in the amber. Then you cut it up into small chips (say, poker chip size) and then let it solidify. Any leftover you can just put together into a new sheet.

So, of course, the value would be determined by the designs in the amber, whatever you want that to be. I imagine you could make some custom spells and cantrips that let the sheets stay either fluid, cause them to harden faster, and ensure the amber stays clear to show the designs.

And presto, you have an amber based economy.

[Oracle_Hunter]

For the elves I immediately got the idea of gems and/or other precious stones. It just makes sense to me, since gems/precious are beautiful, sparkly things, which are usually worked by seasoned artisans into works of art in themselves.

All currency systems are barter systems. When you accept 15 GP for a Longsword, it isn't for the gold itself, but rather for what you can get for it.

In an aesthetic based economy, you are bartering pretty things for goods. As such, the "prettiness," and possibly rarity, of the gems determines their value; cut stones are worth more than uncut, master-cut stones worth much more.

Artisans might trade for gems for their own use, but it would be fairly rare, provided Art Objects are non-essential goods. In any case, there is no easy way to do this (how do you give change for a Ruby?) but if you're willing to do all that for Orcs, you probably can pull this off.

Or you can just treat gems as coins. In that case, the above plans work just fine.

[lsfreak]

I see. Is the ability to be able to fuse together and divide up the currency's value again and again vital? You can not do that with dollar bills.

Bills are drastically different from currencies that came before, because their value is entirely artificial rather than having some intrinsic value. Coins had gold or silver that was held to be valuable in itself. Cocoa beans had value because they could be used. Glass and shells (and gems for you) have aesthetic value. Most societies didn't have an entirely arbitrary system like we have with paper money.

Also, pretty sure you could recycle bills just as you can paper, though you would not be dividing up the net worth. As I said, being completely arbitrary it's a bit different.

One thing about a gem economy is cut versus uncut. Gemcutters are going to be highly valued in such a society. If someone took an uncut gem to a very prestigious gemcutter, they're going to get more out of it than that same uncut gem to a mere apprentice. I don't have time to try and think out all the issues with that right now, but it's something you'll at least need to consider.

[newbDM]

All currency systems are barter systems. When you accept 15 GP for a Longsword, it isn't for the gold itself, but rather for what you can get for it.

In an aesthetic based economy, you are bartering pretty things for goods. As such, the "prettiness," and possibly rarity, of the gems determines their value; cut stones are worth more than uncut, master-cut stones worth much more.

Artisans might trade for gems for their own use, but it would be fairly rare, provided Art Objects are non-essential goods. In any case, there is no easy way to do this (how do you give change for a Ruby?) but if you're willing to do all that for Orcs, you probably can pull this off.

Or you can just treat gems as coins. In that case, the above plans work just fine.

Hmm.

I guess I do not want it to be a simple X = said coin substitute. To simply done and obvious by the DM.

What if I kept the gems as they are in the DMG, with varying possible values, but add in the "chips" and "sparkles" system suggested above for the equivalent of CPs and SPs? I imagine chips left over from the crafting of true gems would be of a constant and similar size and value (with the slightly bigger ones becoming "sparkles"), and can serve as the common "change" of the economy. However, once you get to the gp level of the economy you get into the gem value table from the DMG? I believe the lowest value of gems/precious stone is 4d4gp, meaning a minimum of 4gp?

[hamishspence]

In Forgotten Realms- elves do use a gem based currency. Sea elves, that is. Pearls of various kinds.

All are worth much less "below the waves" than on shore- a reasonably well-to-do sea elf is suddenly much richer, relatively speaking, when he goes on shore.

[newbDM]

Bills are drastically different from currencies that came before, because their value is entirely artificial rather than having some intrinsic value. Coins had gold or silver that was held to be valuable in itself. Cocoa beans had value because they could be used. Glass and shells (and gems for you) have aesthetic value. Most societies didn't have an entirely arbitrary system like we have with paper money.

Also, pretty sure you could recycle bills just as you can paper, though you would not be dividing up the net worth. As I said, being completely arbitrary it's a bit different.

Ah, I see. My bad.

However, does an obsession with "shiny metals" real make silver/gold coins valuable?

Either way, does artistic value such as glass or gems count as valuable currency (like gold and silver coins), or as arbitrary like paper money?

One thing about a gem economy is cut versus uncut. Gemcutters are going to be highly valued in such a society. If someone took an uncut gem to a very prestigious gemcutter, they're going to get more out of it than that same uncut gem to a mere apprentice. I don't have time to try and think out all the issues with that right now, but it's something you'll at least need to consider.

Hmm.

Mechanically how would you insert this into the system and/or table(s)? Give uncut a -XX% to their value, while Master Worked gems get a +XX%? Or some other method?

If you go ith the prior, would that give PCs a reason to take Craft: (Gem Cutting)?

[newbDM]

In Forgotten Realms- elves do use a gem based currency. Sea elves, that is. Pearls of various kinds.

All are worth much less "below the waves" than on shore- a reasonably well-to-do sea elf is suddenly much richer, relatively speaking, when he goes on shore.

Oooh.

Can you please provide a book/page reference for that? I could use that directly for my sea elves in my world.

[hamishspence]

Page 91, FRCS.

For those who don't have it:

Some undersea races typically use pearls as currency, particularly those who dwell in the shallows and trade with surface races. The value of a pearl varies by size- a quarter-inch diameter is the standard- rarity, and quality (freedom from flaws).
In the Sea of Fallen Stars, a white pearl or seyar is worth 1 cp "below the wave" and averages 2 sp in value ashore. A yellow hayar pearl is 1 sp undersea and averages 2 gp ashore, a green tayar is 1 gp and 20 gp respectively, and a blue nuyar is 5 gp "wet" and 100 gp "dry".
The most prized pearls of all are olmars, the 7-inch long, 3-inch wide diamond shaped olive pears of great clams, worth 500 gp among the aquatic races and over 2000 gp ashore.

[newbDM]

Page 91, FRCS.

For those who don't have it:

Some undersea races typically use pearls as currency, particularly those who dwell in the shallows and trade with surface races. The value of a pearl varies by size- a quarter-inch diameter is the standard- rarity, and quality (freedom from flaws).
In the Sea of Fallen Stars, a white pearl or seyar is worth 1 cp "below the wave" and averages 2 sp in value ashore. A yellow hayar pearl is 1 sp undersea and averages 2 gp ashore, a green tayar is 1 gp and 20 gp respectively, and a blue nuyar is 5 gp "wet" and 100 gp "dry".
The most prized pearls of all are olmars, the 7-inch long, 3-inch wide diamond shaped olive pears of great clams, worth 500 gp among the aquatic races and over 2000 gp ashore.

That is perfect for my needs! Thank you!

I have added this to my site under the Sea Elves entry.



Also, I have jotted down something for the Wild Elves of my world. Would you gals/guys please give me your thoughts on it?

Wild Elves:
Wild Elves have little need for concepts such as currency, or little want for things such small disks of metal, or even the precious stones used by their so called "civilized" cousins aside from a small decorative trinket here and there.

Instead wild elves use a bartering based system of trade within their communities that emphasizes on the needs and importance of the entire community. Though they can own personal possessions, mostly items such as clothes, decorative items for one's body and hair, weapons, armor, and both hunting and war trophies, most possessions are considered the property of the tribe as a whole.

All trading with outside sources is done by the tribe's ruling elders on behath of the tribe as a whole, and almost never on behath of an individual. An exception to this is if the trade concerns obtaining medical substances or treatment for member(s) of the tribe.

There is a player in our group who loves playing wild elves, and I made wild elves a major elf race in my world, so I do not want to cause him (and possibly the other players) problems.

[Quincunx]

No troubles. Like any nomadic society, his valuable items are both functional and highly decorated. They might not pay anything for a windowpane of stained glass, but stained glass treated with gold (deep pink glass) and set into the handle of a silver weapon meant to slay lycanthropes would fetch a high price. Even in communes, people have artistic preferences*. Well, humans do. If the wild elves have no artistic sense at all, they'll trade on quality or how well the items blend into the natural setting (Disguise as a quality check instead of Craft?).

Also, it's "behalf", not "behath".

*Plot hook: a covetous wild elf does have an individual desire for some object the PCs have, not necessarily one they have for sale. Covetous one follows PCs to enjoy the sight of object, not to possess it. . .

[JellyPooga]

Rather than gemstones (which take millions of years to form and must be mined), could you not use "grown" crystals instead? Growing crystals would make a reasonable profession for a long-lived elf and would provide a constant resupply to keep the currency viable. It also allows for a uniform size/shape to denote different values. Unique colours and shapes between different types of crystal also help deliniate between denominations and help towards the prevention of forgeries.

Just a suggestion...

[bosssmiley]

Ah, I see. My bad.

However, does an obsession with "shiny metals" real make silver/gold coins valuable?
Either way, does artistic value such as glass or gems count as valuable currency (like gold and silver coins), or as arbitrary like paper money?

All money values are arbitrary (and, yes, that includes precious metals). Money is only ever worth what the market will exchange for it. Gold and silver are just the most universally agreed stores of value.

Hmm.

Mechanically how would you insert this into the system and/or table(s)? Give uncut a -XX% to their value, while Master Worked gems get a +XX%? Or some other method?

First off scrap the RAW Craft rules entirely. They have only an illusory relationship to real economic practise.

Instead I'd say that degree of success at a gemcutting Craft check would add a certain %age to the value of the uncut gem. You know. For every x points by which the check beats the required Craft DC then x(squared)% value is added to the base gem. You might want to allow people to imbue gems with particular abilities (non-magical lensing, engraving, or possibly minor magical effects) by upping the base DC. This change means that highly skilled gemcutters would actually be sought after for their ability...

Failing a check would result in a miscut gem of no additional value. Really poor failure - by 10 or 20 - might reduce it to much less valuable fragments... Oh, and each attempt to cut or re-cut a gem would cost y% of the gems original value, as ever more of its substance is pared away be re-cutting

(IIRC correctly Asscher Bros examined the Cullinan Diamond for over a month before making the first cleavage. You could model that as the result of a Take 20 roll, I suppose)

[newbDM]

No troubles. Like any nomadic society, his valuable items are both functional and highly decorated. They might not pay anything for a windowpane of stained glass, but stained glass treated with gold (deep pink glass) and set into the handle of a silver weapon meant to slay lycanthropes would fetch a high price. Even in communes, people have artistic preferences*. Well, humans do. If the wild elves have no artistic sense at all, they'll trade on quality or how well the items blend into the natural setting (Disguise as a quality check instead of Craft?)

Thanks for clearing that up. From documentaries I had seen I knew that nomadic peoples traditionally wear all their jewelry everyday due to their lifestyles, but I did not realize that they had to carefully select their possessions due to weight and carrying limits. It makes sense that this would cause them to want items which are both functional and beautiful. I imagine this hold twice as true for elves. I guess I imagined them as wanting pure functionality for most of their gear.

Also, it's "behalf", not "behath".

Oops. Thanks. It was kinda late.

Rather than gemstones (which take millions of years to form and must be mined), could you not use "grown" crystals instead? Growing crystals would make a reasonable profession for a long-lived elf and would provide a constant resupply to keep the currency viable. It also allows for a uniform size/shape to denote different values. Unique colours and shapes between different types of crystal also help deliniate between denominations and help towards the prevention of forgeries.

Just a suggestion...

You can grow crystals?!

I have always wanted one IRL, fantasy style. I thought they were rare valuable things.

All money values are arbitrary (and, yes, that includes precious metals). Money is only ever worth what the market will exchange for it. Gold and silver are just the most universally agreed stores of value.

Kind of sad that while we consider ourselves so advanced, we still kill each other every day for "shiny metals" and "sparkly rocks".

First off scrap the RAW Craft rules entirely. They have only an illusory relationship to real economic practise.

Instead I'd say that degree of success at a gemcutting Craft check would add a certain %age to the value of the uncut gem. You know. For every x points by which the check beats the required Craft DC then x(squared)% value is added to the base gem. You might want to allow people to imbue gems with particular abilities (non-magical lensing, engraving, or possibly minor magical effects) by upping the base DC. This change means that highly skilled gemcutters would actually be sought after for their ability...

Failing a check would result in a miscut gem of no additional value. Really poor failure - by 10 or 20 - might reduce it to much less valuable fragments... Oh, and each attempt to cut or re-cut a gem would cost y% of the gems original value, as ever more of its substance is pared away be re-cutting

(IIRC correctly Asscher Bros examined the Cullinan Diamond for over a month before making the first cleavage. You could model that as the result of a Take 20 roll, I suppose)

Hmm. Great ideas. Thanks.

Though, I have greatly enjoyed the craft mechanics of 3.x. They are at least fun.

[ericgrau]

The thing is, most gems shown in the DMG are worth several pp or 100's of gp, when commoners need gp, sp and cp too. And they vary in value, and require an appraise check to determine that value. Not so hot for regular trade. I'd consider gem dust; leftover from cutting gems. And if it's diamond dust then it doubles as a usable spell component, though mostly for divine spells.

But, as said, elves don't really have ready access to gems. Anything natural used as currency has the potential to damage the natural resource from excessive harvestation, which also goes against elven style. Elves live off the land without clearing it for farms either, so that source is out. Grown crystals come from sodium or chemical salts. They dissolve in water and tend to wear too easily. There are guides online if you want to make some. Perhaps elves could get all their currency from trade, and thus give a reason for interacting with the bothersome outside world. Especially if that currency was something the elves found beautiful.

[Fishy]

Not to sound harsh, but if you want to be tinkering around with economies, you really ought to read up on them a little more. It's a fascinating topic.

Food has value because you need to eat it to live. Land has value because you need a place to sleep, and you need sleep to live.

Gold has value because if you give it to someone who has food or land, they will give some to you. That's it.

Coins used to have value because they were a fixed amount of gold or silver. The Norse didn't buy things with numbers of coins, they bought by weight, cutting coins in half if they needed to make change. A similar thing happened with pirates and Pieces Of Eight.

The reason you use gold is because it's hard to get. If someone gives you 1gp, it means someone did them 1gp worth of work, and you can use that fact to get someone else to do 1gp worth of work. Nowadays, we trade numbers, signatures, and government promises, which are an awful lot harder to get than gold.

If the Dwarves and Kobolds live underground, spend their lives mining, and have ready access to gold, then it loses its rarity, and they really ought to use something else for their currency. Likewise, in an elven art-based economy (despite how awesome the idea is), an artist has exactly the same economic value as a counterfeiter.

[newbDM]

If the Dwarves and Kobolds live underground, spend their lives mining, and have ready access to gold, then it loses its rarity, and they really ought to use something else for their currency.

But I figured it retained value, because they know other creatures crave it. Is this a wrong train of thought?

And what about the part you described concerning a coin is a sing of one person's day of work? If it is a society based heavily on mining and forging doesn't that mean that their days-of-work are symbolized by the ores/coins they produce? Or is this also a wrong train of thought?

Likewise, in an elven art-based economy (despite how awesome the idea is), an artist has exactly the same economic value as a counterfeiter.

I do not quite understand this part. Can you please explain it a bit more?