Armor and HP

[DrizztFan24]

I expressed to my DM that I didn't think that the current armor rules and HP were properly reflecting the ideals supported by the classes. The DM told me that the HP system reflects this unbalance by saying that nicks and scratches become minor injories as the level increases and HP totals increase; thus, rogue have more HP than a wizard because the rogue is better at dodging blows and minimizing losses from strikes. So what about the fighter in heavy plate?


The fighter has massive hitpoints and can use the most protective type of armor available. This makes him take fewer hits AND survive longer when he does take hits.

The rogue has lower HP and a higher dexterity to compensate for lack of protective plating. Does it not seem that it would be better to not get hit than to get hit and hope that your metal plates don't malfunction?

The final bit is that the fighter gets hit less often in straight dice rolls and that he will also survive longer because of his increased HP, which is supposed to represent his ability to doge blows...in full plate mail.

Correct? Incorrect? Better explanation please?

[Tempest Fennac]

From a fluff perspective, I think it makes sense due to Fighters being trained to serve as frontline fighters who can take a ton of damage while Rogues are trained in less combat-orientated areas. From a crunch perspective, the idea is that Rogues need to be weaker then Fighters as far as taking and avoiding damage goes due to them being designed to be more useful outside of combat (excluding when they can Sneak Attack, which ideally needs a flanking buddy).

[Katrascythe]

I think of armor and HP slightly differently.

I look at HP as the hardiness of a character. A fighter has more HP because he's in the front lines all the time taking hits. Just like in the real world, someone who is going to be in stressful situations more often tend to be hardier and less affected by the stress. It's why a wizard has lower HP, they don't have to deal with getting beaten to death all the time because they're standing in the back. Rogues take a few hits because they do close with their enemies but they have a high dex so they don't get killed all the time.

The armor is just the way to help the fighter stay alive. Wizards can't use it because they don't have the training and strength to be able to even move well using armor. It's just not something that is necessary for them since they're not front lines. Rogues don't use it because they need to be as quiet as possible.

That's just how I view it though

[D-naras]

The way I see it, a heavy armor negates strikes, it doesn't help you dodge them, and the bigger Hit Dice means a higher threshold for pain.

For example: at 1st level a fighter gets hit for 5 points from a club. He got hit on the chest and lost some wind but thats it. A 1st level wizard got hit for 5 points from the same club. He got hit on the chest and broke some ribs and fell unconsious.
Also the same fighter has an AC of 14 and the opponent misses. So he got hit on the padding of his armor, causing no harm to him.
The wizard with an AC of 10 would dodge the blow or the opponent would swing a few inches from his face.

[BRC]

What they said. Ones AC represents how difficult it is to deal damage to somebody. Whether that is because you are harder to touch than MC hammer, or because you are basically encased in armor. For Fighters, it's not so much that the attack didn't hit, as it is they didn't feel anything.

[TheOOB]

Remember that your hit points isn't your ability to soak damage, it's your ability to avoid being seriously wounded. Armor and dexterity are important, they are your first line of defense. If the attack cannot connect then you take no damage.

On the other hand, hp makes wounds less severe. A character with 10 hp with takes 9 damage from a sword slash might have just taken a large gash to the gut, only their heroic resolve is keeping them up and moving. On the other hand, someone with 200 hp will only get a small scratch from such a wound.

[Katrascythe]

What they said. Ones AC represents how difficult it is to deal damage to somebody. Whether that is because you are harder to touch than MC hammer, or because you are basically encased in armor. For Fighters, it's not so much that the attack didn't hit, as it is they didn't feel anything.

I second with the AC. It's why even if you're sitting right in someone's face and there's no reason you can't kick them between the legs, you'll still "miss." You might not *actually* miss, but their steel case AC means that they won't even notice you hit them.

[Zaq]

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this, and while I hate to be so blunt, basically, you're on a fool's errand trying to make sense out of it. It's an abstraction that makes less sense the more you think about it. That's all there is to it. It doesn't make sense, not one bit. It's not internally consistent, it doesn't map well into anything we know about reality, and there's even less logic behind it than behind the alignment system. After all, why should a bonus to hit from high strength work equally well against AC gained from dodging around (high dex) as against AC gained form turtling behind solid steel (full plate)? It shouldn't, but at the same time, do you want to have to figure out how your fighter has a separate to-hit against every single enemy, particularly when your to-hit bonuses come from different sources? I sure as hell don't.

It's a fairly necessary abstraction, though. Just about any combat-oriented game is going to have something like it (and like it or not, D&D is a combat-oriented game. Just because you CAN do other things with it doesn't mean it's not fundamentally about cracking skulls and burning things.), with varying degrees of elegance. Some are clunky, some are slow, some make more sense than others. None of them come close to being perfect. The best you can hope for is simple and fun. D&D's isn't the most simple out there, but I feel it gets the job done overall. I'll be the first to tell you, though, that it doesn't make any sense whatsoever, and if you try to apply any kind of real-world logic to it, you're only going to end up confusing yourself.

So I guess the short answer is, armor and HP work the way they do because it's easy to deal with them that way. You can consolidate all your bonuses to hit and to avoid being hit into a single pair of numbers (plus touch AC if you want), whether they come from the wind guiding your hand a little bit to the left or to the right, or you actively dancing out of the way, or you swinging your mace so hard you can splinter steel, or the gods themselves nudging arrows out of the way, or whatever. In the end, it comes down to comparing two numbers, and even that can take quite long enough if your players (and your GM, for that matter) are slow. Every new dimension you add to it is going to make it even slower, and at some point you have to say "you know what? No. Combat takes long enough without having to look up how attack bonus from source X interacts with armor bonus from source Y on a table every time I swing my fist. I roll a 24, does that hit?"

[Spiryt]

dodging blows and minimizing losses from strikes.

The final bit is that the fighter gets hit less often in straight dice rolls and that he will also survive longer because of his increased HP, which is supposed to represent his ability to doge blows...in full plate mail.

Correct? Incorrect? Better explanation please?

Armor greatly helps in dodging blows to minimalize their effect. Very slight turn, and the blow hits at angle and deflects.

You're searching error where they're none.

When you see someone who is in lighter armor you describe his HP more as dodge.

When someone has a plate you can describe more "hit but didn't do much".

[oxybe]

HP is plot armor in my books. fightery-types require a bit more plot armor as they generally take the gist of the sharp objects pointed towards the group. theify-types and mages usually hang back and strike when appropriate so they tend to get less plot armor. healers get a decent amount as they need to run interference between the melee types and the back row.

the higher level you get, you're awarded that much more plot armor. low-level PCs don't nearly have enough plot armor to survive a PO'ed balor but high level PCs can. Why? because it makes just as much sense as how a creature with the bone and muscle mass as a dragon can somehow sustain flight: it makes for an awesome story.

as for armor and misses? flavor as appropriate. the heavily armored dwarf takes it full on but ignores the blows, the paladin deflects the blows with his sheild, the rogue swiftly dodges the swings, the wizard barely avoids the attack as he predicted the swing, the cleric manages to evade as though the attack was deflected by an unseen hand.

hits? slight grazes, small cuts, cosmetic changes to clothing/armor, whatever... the only attacks IMO that really count are those that bring to below 0 and the one that finishes you off.

that's my 2 copper anyway.

[erikun]

Armor (and other things that grant AC) is the ability to prevent an attack from hitting the character. Full Plate is high AC because it takes a lot of power/skill to get past the thick slabs of iron sitting between you and your target. 20 DEX is high AC because the target just won't stand still long enough to be hit. AC doesn't raise on it's own, it's the passive quality of the equipment. A suit of Full Plate will protect you as well at level 20 as it did at level 1 (that is, +8 AC). This explanation doesn't quite work with 4e.

HP is the character's luck, ability, training, divine protection, arcane wardings, and whatever else it is that keeps them alive. A level 1 character in +5 Full Plate that gets backstabbed will probably die - they have very good armor (AC), but aren't experienced enough to avoid taking a rapier to the kidney. A level 20 character who gets backstabbed will feel the taletell prick of the blade, and twist out of the way to avoid getting complete ginsu'd. They can roll with the punches; they know how to turn their armor to protect their vulnerable points, of their god has provided them blessings for survival, or perhaps the can supernaturally heal the wounds they are dealt. Either way, HP represents the character's experience keeping them alive, rather than their equipment doing so.

Of course, your millage my differ with other systems. This is the classic D&D descriptions, though. (or as I understand them)

[Brogen]

I think the Alexandrian explains the hit point system pretty well.

[JonestheSpy]

I'm thinking that a lot of the folks responding to this don't have a lot of actual fighting experience. Whether fencing, boxing, whatever, at least half your training is about protecting yourself. I think people tend to just look a fighters as damage-dealing machines, but an expert fighter will also be blocking, parrying, deflecting, etc - as opposed to just dodging, as anyone with a high DEX would be doing.

Some games have elaborate attack/parry systems - Runequest leaps to mind. DnD streamlined the whole idea of combat by having hit points stand in for defensive skills, though obviously things like stamina and hardiness are represented by the CON bonus. And in 3.5 there are some options that emphasize defensive fighting like the Combat Expertise feat, but they decided it was mechanically easier for that to effect AC than hit points, I suppose.

If you read some of the literature that inspired Gygax, like the amazing Fafhrd and Grey Mouser series, you'll see these wonderful, intricately narrated sword duels by folks wearing pretty much no armor at all, or a bit of leather at best. Ol' GG just decided to keep it simple and let player's imagination create the details, but the heroes hit points were what determined how long they could fight before slipping up and letting the mortal blow past their guard.

[mcv]

Zaq is correct: HP and AC abstractions designed for game effect, not for realistic (or even plausible) simulation. HP is simply a buffer to absorb hits that would kill any normal human being. There's just no realistic way to explain it. If you want realism and simulation, play GURPS or The Riddle Of Steel or something like that. Realism means that any sword blow, even the first of the day, can kill or incapacitate you.

The only explanation for HP that sort-of works is badassness. Lots of HP means you can take damage that would kill or seriously inconvenience any normal person, but because you're do bad-ass, you can shrug it off and keep functioning normally. You're Bruce Willis and Arnold Schwarzenegger in one. But afterward it'll take a lot of healing to get you back into shape (which is something that HP=dodging or parrying doesn't explain).

[Chronos]

Despite all the rationalizations to try to explain it away, I've always thought that HP make more sense if you take them at face value: The amount of HP you've lost is the amount of physical damage your body has taken. The way I figure it, it takes about 200 points of damage to reduce a human body to hamburger, but most folks will be killed long before they get to that point. The first-level wizard who gets killed by a housecat has only taken 4 points of damage, and his body is almost completely intact, but it was still enough to kill him. The 20th level barbarian, though, can shrug off that same amount of physical damage and keep going: The only way you're going to be able to drop him is to reduce him to hamburger.

[Shpadoinkle]

Hit Points are a mostly abstract game mechanic like spells are a game mechanic. They have little basis in reality, and are really only there because being murdered every other fight or so sucks and isn't fun (well, for most people, anyway).

[Magentawolf]

I've actually always been a fan of the systems that separated the two; there's the chance that the person would miss / you dodged, and then there was a second comparison against your armor to see if you got hurt.

It was either Shadowrun or one of the WoD games where armor and your natural toughness gave you 'soak' dice to prevent damage, and you had a pool of dice you could dodge with, too.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

After all, why should a bonus to hit from high strength work equally well against AC gained from dodging around (high dex) as against AC gained form turtling behind solid steel (full plate)?

Obviously because swinging that 30-pound greatclub with 10 strength is gonna take you half a day and the other guy will dodge while swinging it with 20 strength only takes a moment-making dodging much harder. A strong character swings faster for a weapon of the same weight than a weaker guy. And obviously the fast-moving club hits harder, smashing in the steel plate.

[ericgrau]

There was a dragon warrior related comic on this. They explained HP as plot armor, avoiding blows, awesomeness, etc. Then DW said, "Wait, so when I cast a heal spell on myself, does that heal plot armor or my ability to dodge blows?"

I look at it in two ways. One as an abstraction and to not worry about it. Maybe it makes a little sense maybe it makes no sense at all, doesn't really matter. Second is to just take it as flesh wounds. Higher level guys can somehow handle more. Still doesn't make sense when "light wounds" can kill a 1st level guy and "critical wounds" barely graze a high level guy, but oh well. They heal an amount of resilience I guess. Other than stinging a bit, these wounds don't impede your actions; i.e. none of your limbs have been chopped off or anything even when you're down to 1 HP.

[bosssmiley]

I think the Alexandrian explains the hit point system pretty well.

That's a good 'un. Although I currently lean towards The Rambling Bumblers' take on hp as combat readiness myself:

Hit Points represent that state of combat readiness that makes the veteran soldier able to react almost instinctively to avoid all the hazards that kill the green soldiers so easily, including not just reflexes, but awareness of surrounding, mental toughness so as not to hesitate in the slightest, physical conditioning, economy of motion, and so forth. Damage, in this view, is primarily not actual wounds but the kind of accumulated fatigue and minor injuries and strains that require not just a night’s sleep to restore but days or weeks of R&R.

Sure, it's part way to being a Wound/Vitality conception of HP, but that's not necessarily a bad thing...

[Telonius]

I think the Alexandrian explains the hit point system pretty well.

This. Don't think of HP loss as an absolute number. Think of it as a loss of a percentage of total HP available. "Goblin hits you for 10 hp" means different things depending on how good the character is. At level 1, that usually means "axe to the face." At level 20, "he scratched your arm."

Fighters and Barbarians are used to getting up in the middle of melee; so they're used to protecting their own vital areas. It's less likely (at higher levels) that they'll leave their head open to an "axe to the face," more likely to leave themselves open to a "scratched arm." Their higher AC - which is mainly Armor and magic bonuses - means that the armor absorbs the shock of the blows without damaging the fighter.

Rogues aren't quite as used to protecting their vital areas as Fighters are. And let's be honest, they're most often wielding a rapier, which isn't really going to offer much parrying against an axe. So, they leave themselves a little bit more open to a deadly blow than a Fighter would. A Rogue's higher AC - mainly based on DEX - means that they're trying not to get hit in the first place, rather than having armor absorb the shock.

The way I would generally describe a miss generally goes in this order: Base, Dex, Shield, Armor. If an attack roll is below 10, the attacker embarrasses himself and totally whiffs. If it's between 10 and 10+Dex, the attacker swung, but the defender dodged. If it's between 10 +Dex and 10+Dex+Shield, he blocked it with his shield. If it's between 10+Dex+Shield and 10+Dex+Shield+Armor, the attacker's blow clanged off of the armor.

[The Rose Dragon]

Ones AC represents how difficult it is to deal damage to somebody. Whether that is because you are harder to touch than MC hammer, or because you are basically encased in armor.

If I were in the habit of sigging things, I would totally sig this.

[JaxGaret]

Armor As Damage Reduction

This may be what you are looking for.

[Dogmantra]

I'm with the HP is combat readiness/willingness to fight/energy group.

The more you get beaten up, the less willing you are to fight, and the more energy you lose. Eventually, you get so beaten that you just can't (or won't) fight anymore. This is when you fall "unconcious" (though I think it would be better as "incapacitated"). Since Fighters are trained more for combat, they know more what it's like, and are likely to have more fighting spirit and more realistic expectations of combat, whereas Wizards are going to lose the will to fight at a much lower damage level, because they're not trained to resist it.

Of course, Armour stops you getting beaten up.

[Doug Lampert]

Armor As Damage Reduction

This may be what you are looking for.

Doesn't really work. Historically the most effective Armor Piercing weapons are often the LOW damage variants.

Arrows designed for use against armor had bodkin points, far less damaging than a broadhead.

The misericorde was one of the few weapons specifically designed to kill people in full armor. Basically a dagger.

Modern you have AP vs. HE, the AP is often an order of magnitude less damaging against unarmored targets, but more effective against armor.

You don't normally defeat armor by hitting harder, but rather by hitting where there's less armor/no armor or by concentrating the same force in a smaller area sacrificing total damage for concentrated damage.

"Armor makes you harder to hit effectively" is a gross simplification, but it's better than armor as DR.

DougL

[Fiery Diamond]

By previous people on this thread:

The only explanation for HP that sort-of works is badassness. Lots of HP means you can take damage that would kill or seriously inconvenience any normal person, but because you're do bad-ass, you can shrug it off and keep functioning normally. You're Bruce Willis and Arnold Schwarzenegger in one. But afterward it'll take a lot of healing to get you back into shape (which is something that HP=dodging or parrying doesn't explain).

And

Despite all the rationalizations to try to explain it away, I've always thought that HP make more sense if you take them at face value: The amount of HP you've lost is the amount of physical damage your body has taken. The way I figure it, it takes about 200 points of damage to reduce a human body to hamburger, but most folks will be killed long before they get to that point. The first-level wizard who gets killed by a housecat has only taken 4 points of damage, and his body is almost completely intact, but it was still enough to kill him. The 20th level barbarian, though, can shrug off that same amount of physical damage and keep going: The only way you're going to be able to drop him is to reduce him to hamburger.

These are how I look at HP.

Edit: Media example-- Anime. Look at Ichigo and Kenpachi from Bleach as examples of characters that have high HP, whereas Ishida has lower HP but high AC from dodging. Kenpachi has high DR as well, and Ichigo has high AC gained from parrying.

[Berserk Monk]

Considering fighters should get attacked the most (why do you think they're called meat-shields), they should have the highest chance of survival. Would you rather have a one foot thick stone wall blocking the entrance to your home or a rather large piece of soggy cardboard when a horde of zombies are coming to get you?

[Talic]

Armor as DR would work, provided weapons had an armor penetration rating.

For example, a Suit of Full Plate has DR 8. Good stuff.

A light mace has 1d6 damage, and AP 3. It'll go through light armor with ease, but once you get into chain, it's gonna have problems.

A heavy pick, may have 1d6 damage, but have an AP of 10. It's designed to punch into tough surfaces.

If the AP is equal to or greater than the DR? The armor's DR doesn't apply. If the AP is less than the DR? The armor's full bonus applies.