[4e] Suggestions for a class to play

[tcrudisi]

My normal group had two people that are joining us, but they are only sporadic. When they are not there, we'll be playing our mains. When they are there, we'll be playing some level 1's.

They joined us for the first time last week. I took the opportunity to play a Fighter for the first time. I really wanted to play a Barbarian, but one of the new guys was already playing one (and asked me to create it for him), so I ended up choosing Fighter for myself. (Side note: his level 1 Barbarian crit for 50 points of damage!)

Anyway, this party had some serious deficiencies occuring. For starters, here is/was our group make-up: Fighter (me), Swordmage, Barbarian, Rogue, Wizard, Druid, Invoker, Warlord (Tac). Yes, 8 characters and only 1 healer.

The real problem is/was the healer (Warlord): he doesn't understand team-work. At all. It's not in his vocabulary. At one point he denied flanking for the Rogue so he could take it and use an at-will power himself. Hmm... 1d6 + 3 damage or 1d4 + 2d8 + 4 damage. Also ... he is/was a Gnome. A gnome! With a strength of 16. Now, I know 16 might normally be sufficient, but as I have stated before: our DM likes to make normal encounters several levels above us, so we have to crunch out every +1 to hit that we can if we don't want to be forced to roll a 19 or 20 just to hit (which happens way too often).

Well, to shorten the story: he refused to heal me, the tank. We both died. Now he's creating ... a Drow Warlock. Besides the fact that I absolutely, positively, unequiovacly hate drow, it has put me into a very, very difficult positon. This leaves us with: Swordmage, Wizard, Invoker, Druid, Warlock, Barbarian, Rogue, and ... me. I can see two glaring needs: another tank (especially with a party this big) and a healer. I can only play one character. What do you guys recommend?

As an aside: I'd say close to 75% of my time playing 4e has been playing a Leader. Yeah, I really like healers in 4e ... but I'm also really wanting to try something else. I'd really like to play something else.

I thought of the Battlerager Fighter, but I'm worried about how they operate. I'd miss the +1 from weapon talent and I'd be stuck using +2 prof. bonus weapons to make best use of the Battlerager at-wills.

So: all suggestions welcome. What would you guys play in my situation? (And before anyone suggests, no one is willing to play anything else.)

[erikun]

I'm sure they'd be more willing to try a new class after dying a few times.

No, really. There's a difference between "assisting the party to be awesome" and "walking band-aid". I feel your pain for falling into the second category too often.

That said, the leaders can still be quite fun. You're not just stuck on healing detail, as your main "heal" is a minor action - and unless you're a cleric, you probably won't be focusing on healing anyways. Bard sounds like an amusing choice, as you can always Misdirected Mark onto someone bothering you.

Other than that, have fun with a defender, and try to keep all those squishy ranged people alive. You might try the Warden, too; I've heard Form of Winter's Herald is a lot of fun. Avoid the Paladin, as it is NOT a leader; it's healing is just another way of defending (by erasing damage done to the party).

And Gnomes can be perfectly fine Warlords! Don't let one low-INT player color your opinion.

[tcrudisi]

I didn't mean to give the wrong impression. I do love playing Leaders in 4e. If WotC got one thing right, it was Leaders. Healing in the previous editions was tedious and annoying. In 4e, it's fun. The problem is that I've done it so much since 4e came out that I just want/need a change. I want to experience different roles, not just the healer.

Having said all that, yeah, the Bard kicks butt. It's my favorite class, bar-none. Everything about it is perfect. But I've already played a Bard for a few months, albeit an unoptimized one (I started it with the play-test and didn't get to change it any when PHB 2 came out).

[NPCMook]

You could go Bard and snag the Warlord and Cleric Multiclass feats, but its up to you, there is also the option of the playtest for Artificier, which is also an Arcane Leader(I believe the Eberron Player's Guide is in July), or you could do try out the Dual Class system, but they've only done the write-up for PHB 1 classes and Swordmage

[Shadow_Elf]

If you want to show your allies just HOW MUCH healing you can manage, try a Human Bard who picks up Multiclass Cleric and Multiclass Warlord. Then, you can be really great and never use a weapon; just use an instrument with a nice healing effect for short rests. Also, definitely pick up Misdirected Mark - if that Warlock gets all high-and-mighty, marking a soldier or brute onto him will set him straight. Also, for a campaign where things are hard to hit, I have one recommendation for the members of your group: Take Multiclass Avenger, if you're desperate to hit. It increases your to-hit and critical hit chances by 25%, I think, according to Char-Ops, for two rounds. Great when you want to chain encounters or dailies. And it stacks with Elven Accuracy too - it gives you 4 rolls in total.
Failing that, play a STR-WIS Shifter Paladin - you'll help fill the Leader role a bit if you take a high Wisdom score, and your shifting will kick-in when bloodied, which'll be very often for you. Then the regeneration with cover your self healing for awhile.
Also, I cannot stress the need for Dwarven Armour and Dwarves in this party - second wind as a minor and free action healing will be MUCH needed.

Advice to the party - take advantage of all that great control and use it! Keep enemies where you want them with Ray of Frost, Cloud of Daggers, Sunstrike and Flame Seed, etc. For good auto-damage, your Invoker can push enemies into Flame Seed and Cloud of Daggers AoEs, as well as other zones. By slowing, dazing, immobilizing etc., you can limit the pressure on your Swordmage and keep the damage off the party so they don't need too much healing. The barbarian should stay away from the Swordmage whenever possible and handle things himself - his HP total should keep him alive long enough, and then the Swordmage can focus on protecting those squishier than him. Finally, if the Warlock is playing a Fey Warlock, he should be using his Fey Step and other teleportation powers to stay out of harm's way - the Swordmage shouldn't need to worry about him overmuch. If he's a Dark Warlock, he can use his Darkspiral Aura to damage enemies and distract them. If he's not either of those, he's suboptimal, and you should glare at him menacingly until he plays something optimal. Very menacingly.

[erikun]

I'm afraid the problem is that I'm not sure what kind of a character you'd like to play. You've said what your party needs, but not necessarily what you'd like to do - as such, you're probably just suggestions for more healers.

Other than the bard superhealer (Bard/Cleric/Warlord/Paladin for MC healing powers), perhaps try out something new. Right off hand, I think there's an Eladrin feat that deals damage whenever you teleport - I've heard of Eladrin Fey Warlocks or Assult Swordmages (or multiclassed both) who have fun hopping around the battlefield, dealing damage simply by teleporting around. I personally like the idea behind the Wizard - locking down stuff in a large area - and I've liked what I've seen from the Warden.

Beyond that, try something unusual? Perhaps a Paladin/Rogue focusing on Dex/Cha wielding a rapier and shield? Perhaps something multiclassing into Druid, just using Wild Shape and a utility shapechange?

[valadil]

I'm running a Dragonborn Paladin right now. I had no intentions to make a healing character, but between LOH and a couple encounter powers I can help out quite a bit on the healing end. I don't think I could replace a leader with this character, but maybe one designed as such could?

[Oracle_Hunter]

I'm afraid the problem is that I'm not sure what kind of a character you'd like to play. You've said what your party needs, but not necessarily what you'd like to do - as such, you're probably just suggestions for more healers.

QFT.

Seriously, I can understand the "I should take what's best for my party" but you shouldn't get stuck playing a class you're bored with. Besides, look at your party - 4 1/2 Strikers, 1 1/2 Controllers, and a Defender. You should be dealing enough damage (particularly with focused fire) that healing isn't going to be too much of a problem. And even if it is, one Leader can't provide enough heals for that many Strikers, so forget it.

Go Battlerager if you think it'll be fun. You can, at the very least, be the Rogue's flanking buddy. But if you'd like to play something else, then go for it! Your party can either adapt or die - the DM will either fix his EL issues after another few character deaths, or someone will roll up another Defender or Leader.

Personally, I'm glad the former Warlord decided to play a class that fits him better. Better to have another Striker than a Leader who doesn't lead

[tcrudisi]

There are a few things I am interested in playing, but this party make-up is just so sub-optimal that I don't want to up and die in the first session again. I've always been a team player who understands tactics well -- which is what makes me a great leader when I play my Bard. Though now that someone mentions it ... Misdirected Mark would be all kinds of fun on that Warlock. <grin>

I think my expectations are so low for this party that I am just going to throw caution to the wind and play something that I know won't last long. I'm curious about an Avenger, so I might give one of them a shot. Once we all TPK and other people step up to the plate willing to come back as a Defender or Leader, then I'll step back into my more natural role. With this many players, I feel that 2 Defenders and 2 Leaders are necessary. Heck, in the combat I died in, we were fighting several level 4 and 5 monsters (plus a bunch of minions). The TPK will occur, and probably in the next session. At least I'll get to have fun with an Avenger for a day.

Thanks for the input guys. I'll keep checking this thread to see if anyone came up with any new suggestions. I have a feeling I'll be creating quite a few new characters in the mean-time. haha.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Have fun with the Avenger - it's something that I've been playing around with myself

But for fun, what would be the theoretical optimization for a 7-man party? At a minimum I'd put 1 Healer Leader, 1 Area Defender, and 1 Controller - you're going to be fighting very large groups of monsters, and you're going to need a way to herd 'em. You will definitely want to go heavy on the strikers though, as herds of monsters are far more dangerous than smaller groups (e.g. greater potential for role variation and synergy). IMHO, something like a CHA Lord or STR Cleric can kick off enough Surges to keep even such a large party running along without issue, and an extra Defender is going to eventually get overwhelmed by the press of numbers if the monsters aren't dying fast enough.

Hmm... against relatively high-level opponents, attacking the NADs is going to be your best bet, too - or Dagger Rogues optimized for attack bonus. A nice DEX 18 Halfling with Nimble Blade and a Dagger is going to have a +11 to hit with CA - and he can target Reflex at that. Pair him with a CHA Lord doing Furious Smash and you've got your damage-dealing set

[tcrudisi]

But for fun, what would be the theoretical optimization for a 7-man party? At a minimum I'd put 1 Healer Leader, 1 Area Defender, and 1 Controller - you're going to be fighting very large groups of monsters, and you're going to need a way to herd 'em. You will definitely want to go heavy on the strikers though, as herds of monsters are far more dangerous than smaller groups (e.g. greater potential for role variation and synergy). IMHO, something like a CHA Lord or STR Cleric can kick off enough Surges to keep even such a large party running along without issue, and an extra Defender is going to eventually get overwhelmed by the press of numbers if the monsters aren't dying fast enough.

Hmm... against relatively high-level opponents, attacking the NADs is going to be your best bet, too - or Dagger Rogues optimized for attack bonus. A nice DEX 18 Halfling with Nimble Blade and a Dagger is going to have a +11 to hit with CA - and he can target Reflex at that. Pair him with a CHA Lord doing Furious Smash and you've got your damage-dealing set

Hmm... Well, I'd start with the defenders: Fighter (sword and board). Paladin as a second defender (and back-up heals). My leader: Bard. Misdirected Mark to allow the Fighter to easily take two at one time. Any controller would work, but I am partial to Druids ability to step in and out of melee/ranged, as each turn requires. For my strikers I would definitely use: Rogue (as you said), Fey Pact Warlock (for extra mobility to get around the large battlefield), Rageblood Barbarian (great burst damage and ability to charge around the battlefield depending on where he's needed). As my final class, I think I'd do a Tac Warlord. It's another back-up healer, but it would really allow the other melee's to shine. I think that's how I'd do it, anyway.

[Colmarr]

Hmm. Theoretical 7-person party huh?

Well, the obvious first choices are Defender, Leader, Striker and Controller, chosen "according to taste"

My personal preference for fifth and sixth wheels is another defender (preferrably a 2H fighter for the quasi-striker effect) and another leader (different to the first).

The seventh wheel would probably be another striker at lower levels, or another controller at higher levels. I imagine that 2 mid-to-high-level controllers could lay down some pretty nasty battlefield control.

[Glyphic]

I'm gonna toss out a vote for a Shaman. You're never alone when you have a snuggly spirit (animal of your choice).

[Jothki]

If you already have a more 'serious' party, do you really need to worry that much about this one? There's something to be said for having an unoptimized party run into challenges and likely be slaughtered by them. If everyone is low level, it should be fairly easy to replace the characters as they fall over dead.

How exactly is your DM running the games? If he's intending to have the majority of the party survive, then worrying about how you can help the group might be a good idea. If he's deliberately sending you through a meat grinder to see how well you can do, then just do whatever you want to do.

[cupkeyk]

I would vote for either a valor bard or a warlord(any). Both of them can defend pretty well.

[Asbestos]

Well, I was going through my early released copy of Arcane Power (woot) and noticed something slightly ludicrous. There exists a feat for bards that allows you to use Charisma for attack rolls with any and all powers procured through multiclass feats, paragon multiclassing, and the half-elf racial power. Ludicrous, I know. The only caveat on the feat is that you still use the original stat for damage rolls. Anyway, with such a feat you could probably make a half-elf bard that filled almost whatever role you want it to.

[TheOOB]

Well, I was going through my early released copy of Arcane Power (woot) and noticed something slightly ludicrous. There exists a feat for bards that allows you to use Charisma for attack rolls with any and all powers procured through multiclass feats, paragon multiclassing, and the half-elf racial power. Ludicrous, I know. The only caveat on the feat is that you still use the original stat for damage rolls. Anyway, with such a feat you could probably make a half-elf bard that filled almost whatever role you want it to.

That feat is good, really good, but not game breaking. Unless you use paragon multiclassing, you'll only have 2 out of class attack powers, and you still have to use proper implements/weapons.

[Asbestos]

That feat is good, really good, but not game breaking. Unless you use paragon multiclassing, you'll only have 2 out of class attack powers, and you still have to use proper implements/weapons.

Well, since you're a half-elf bard, you can easily have more than 2 out of class attack powers before paragon and even more after that since you can just keep taking multiclass feats without going paragon multiclass. As well, there is a feat called Implement Proficiency that lets you choose an implement from an arcane class other than your own and use that implement "with your arcane powers" So... be a valorous bard, snag Implement Proficiency: Heavy Blades, and get to work.