Wizards

[Xenogears]

So according to the description of a Wizards spellbook he only gets to write two spells into her spellbook at each level. Any extra spells would be due to finding them in another Wizards spellbook. So wouldn't this make Wizards a lot less overpowered if instead of having access to thousands of spells they would have only a total of about 50 spells not counting cantrips? I just think its odd that in every discussion that involves Wizards everyone assumes that they have access to every spell whereas without a DM specifically allowing them to have access to these extra spells through finding other spellbooks they only have maybe 20 more spells than a sorcerer.

[quick_comment]

So according to the description of a Wizards spellbook he only gets to write two spells into her spellbook at each level. Any extra spells would be due to finding them in another Wizards spellbook. So wouldn't this make Wizards a lot less overpowered if instead of having access to thousands of spells they would have only a total of about 50 spells not counting cantrips? I just think its odd that in every discussion that involves Wizards everyone assumes that they have access to every spell whereas without a DM specifically allowing them to have access to these extra spells through finding other spellbooks they only have maybe 20 more spells than a sorcerer.

You can scribe spells into your book from scrolls.

[Stormageddon]

Interesting that you bring this up. The last campaign I was in the DM didn't give the wizard in the group enough spells, maybe 1 extra a level. It sucked.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Also, Collegiate Wizard doubles your spells per level, and you can copy spells from another Wizard's spell book without removing his access to it(think 90's-era filesharing).

[RavKal]

That can be a pain, but the DM typically allows more spells, elsewise the wizard (generally me) only learns the most broken spells, and due to lack of options, said broken spells get used A LOT.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, until the DM and the player find a way to coexist peacefully. Sorta.

[ErrantX]

Also, Collegiate Wizard doubles your spells per level, and you can copy spells from another Wizard's spell book without removing his access to it(think 90's-era filesharing).

What's that from?

-X

[kyoten]

What's that from?

-X

Complete Arcane p.181

[aivanther]

Couldn't you spend some of your starting gold on writing in more spells?

Actually, would you have to spend gold on scrolls then the scribing, or would you just pay for the scribing cost?

[MeklorIlavator]

Couldn't you spend some of your starting gold on writing in more spells?

Actually, would you have to spend gold on scrolls then the scribing, or would you just pay for the scribing cost?

You can do both.

[Starbuck_II]

Interesting that you bring this up. The last campaign I was in the DM didn't give the wizard in the group enough spells, maybe 1 extra a level. It sucked.

You mean the 2 free ones you get no matter what + 1 extra/level you find to buy or he lowered the 2 free to just 1 free?

[Chronos]

Restricting player access to new spells means that you can't ever put the party up against an enemy wizard, because if you do, the party's wizard is going to take the enemy's spellbook as loot. Or at least, you never put the party up against any wizard who has any spell the PCs don't already have. Either way, you're making the game significantly easier on the entire party, because now they never have to face any powerful wizards.

[arguskos]

Restricting player access to new spells means that you can't ever put the party up against an enemy wizard, because if you do, the party's wizard is going to take the enemy's spellbook as loot. Or at least, you never put the party up against any wizard who has any spell the PCs don't already have. Either way, you're making the game significantly easier on the entire party, because now they never have to face any powerful wizards.

Or, you just use wizards and accept that the party will get some good stuff for beating the baddie. Seems sensible, right?

Also, who says that wizards keep their spellbook on their person going into battle? That's pretty silly if they know combat is coming. Just use one of roughly a million spells to hide that book away, like Secret Chest or Force Chest or whatever.

[JBento]

You're right. Geez, if only there was a spell that would allows us to find hidden stuff... Or, maybe an entire school, yeh. And, and maybe it could be available to every spellcasting class, even those that have access to the entire list from the get-go. Oooh, oooh, and we could call it... er, Divination, yeh.

[JellyPooga]

You're right. Geez, if only there was a spell that would allows us to find hidden stuff... Or, maybe an entire school, yeh. And, and maybe it could be available to every spellcasting class, even those that have access to the entire list from the get-go. Oooh, oooh, and we could call it... er, Divination, yeh.

Or perhaps we could invent a spell that disguises magical auras or hides stuff on other planes of existence or put it in an Ethereal Lockroom or have it guarded by a demon or built into a golem or send it to the other side of the planet or have it explode upon the owners death or any number of other ways of stopping the players from obtaining said spellbook. Hell, simply putting it in a language that the wizard can't read is enough to slow him down in the copying (having to prepare Comprehend Languages every day until you've finished copying is going to be a pain in the ass).

[J.Gellert]

The Elven Wizard substitution level from Races of the Wild gives +1 known spell per level as well.

I generally bug my DM to drop me scrolls and allow me original spell research because he's rarely bothered to write complete spellbooks for mage NPCs.

[JellyPooga]

I've never really liked the idea of Wiards having access to every spell on the list just because they can afford it out of their starting gold. To my mind arcane writing (spellbooks, scrolls, etc.) should be rare. A single Level 9 spell-scroll should require a whole (side-)quest to locate or years of research (for the auto-gain spells known, I assume that the Wizard has been doing said research over the years of his career...to gain further spells would need more). I would personally prefer a character in one of my games to research his own spells than just dole out spellbooks and scrolls for him to scribe. Then again, I'm a fan of relatively low-magic settings (wizards are rare, magic items rarer and most of the monster manuals either don't exist or are unique or semi-unique creatures...think Greek Myth and/or Conan Chronicles and you're thinking along the same lines as me).

[Dr_Horrible]

Or perhaps we could invent a spell that disguises magical auras or hides stuff on other planes of existence or put it in an Ethereal Lockroom or have it guarded by a demon or built into a golem or send it to the other side of the planet or have it explode upon the owners death or any number of other ways of stopping the players from obtaining said spellbook. Hell, simply putting it in a language that the wizard can't read is enough to slow him down in the copying (having to prepare Comprehend Languages every day until you've finished copying is going to be a pain in the ass).

1) Most of those both make it harder for the wizard who owns the book to cast spells, and don't add appreciable difficulty to getting the spellbook.

2) You can't write the spells in a different language. They are in the universal language of spellcraft, sort of like math. It takes the same spellcraft check that any Wizard ever can make to 'decipher' any spell, no matter what language you claim it is written in.

3) It only takes one day to copy.

[Gorbash]

A single Level 9 spell-scroll should require a whole (side-)quest to locate or years of research

That doesn't really makes sense. That means that the high lvl party should spend entire campaigns getting their gear. If Wizards must do that for one single spell, then what will other, more gear-dependant, classes have to do?

From my experience, as both DM and player, denying the party avability to acquire their gear (whether that's arcane scrolls, or magic weapons/armor, wondrous items etc) is just irritating. In the end they won't appreciate their gear more, they'd be just annoyed that they had to do it.

[JellyPooga]

1) Most of those both make it harder for the wizard who owns the book to cast spells, and don't add appreciable difficulty to getting the spellbook.

You only need the book once a day. If you have an easy and reliable method of hiding the book, then it doesn't increase the difficulty of preparing spells, but for someone to find it upon your death is made much harder (especially if you've rigged it to disintigrate/explode/be otherwise destroyed upon your death!).

2) You can't write the spells in a different language. They are in the universal language of spellcraft, sort of like math. It takes the same spellcraft check that any Wizard ever can make to 'decipher' any spell, no matter what language you claim it is written in.

Hmm, true enough. I'd forgotten that.

3) It only takes one day to copy.

Each spell takes one day. A whole spellbooks worth is going to take much longer. You can of course master the whole book without copying the spells over but that takes one week plus a day per spell in it...

@Gorbash: It's just a different play style. If I were running a high level campaign yes, If a Fighter wanted a +5 Longsword of Choppy-Doom he'd have to a) find out where the fabled sword is and b) go and find it. My campaign worlds are not rife with "Ye Olde Magick Shoppes" which are stocked with every magic item in the DMG and beyond.

On the flipside, I would not throw as tough encounters at them as would be expected in a more 'standard' game. As I mentioned, most of the MM will be unique monsters...the Chimera is just that "the" Chimera, as in there's literally just one. You kill it, it's extinct. Thus encountering it is a Epic Saga(tm) in itself, while in a 'standard' game encountering "a" chimera might just be part of going to defeat the BBEG and not something of particular note.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

You only need the book once a day. If you have an easy and reliable method of hiding the book, then it doesn't increase the difficulty of preparing spells, but for someone to find it upon your death is made much harder (especially if you've rigged it to disintigrate/explode/be otherwise destroyed upon your death!).

The general problem with any defense is you accessing it. The spellbook is going to have to be retrievable once/day with no risk to you. There's a reason most people prefer to coat their spellbook in traps and toss it in a Secret Chest than to go Phylactary on it. And a trapped spellbook in a Secret Chest is fairly easy to retrieve by the time it's owner is dead.

And why would the book explode? That's purposeless destruction by the Wizard, and only serves to hurt him. He expends resources on a trap that renders him useless if it activates, and then if he does die, coming back leaves him nerfed beyond reason.

Each spell takes one day. A whole spellbooks worth is going to take much longer. You can of course master the whole book without copying the spells over but that takes one week plus a day per spell in it...

Or you just prepare spells directly from the book. DC 15+Spell Level. Which means at 5th level you need a DC 18 Spellcraft check. 8 for ranks, +5 Int, +2 synergy, you make it on a 3. At 9th? DC 20, 12 ranks, +5 Int, +2 Synergy, you make on a 1. Yeah, it's a bit chancey at low levels(10% chance of failure), but very quickly it becomes easy.

[Dr_Horrible]

1) The point is that most of your examples make it hard to access. Like exploding books when people come back to life all the time.

2) Adding a second enemy isn't a big deal, we already beat a Wizard, we can somehow manage to beat another level appropriate challenge, or less, in order to get that valuable treasure.

3) Locate Object.

4) The way to copy spells is to look at the spell, and then make an exact secret page copy of the spell in your spellbook. Save time and money.

5) Tallkid, you can take ten on that check, so in fact, it's an autosuccess from level 1. DC 16, 4 ranks + 3 Int (stupidest allowable Wizard) + 10 taking ten = 17.

[Xenogears]

Another random spellbook related thought. For those wizards that do have access to every spell ever made do you also have an infinitely big spellbook or do you hafta carry 50+ spellbooks with you? I mean a normal spellbook has 100 pages and even a single 9th level spell would take up 18 pages. So high level wizards would either have to make some VERY hard choices about what spells to have or carry multiple spellbooks.

Actually I'm willing to bet that in some supplement I haven't read there is some special spellbook that lets you put as many spells as you want in it....

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Another random spellbook related thought. For those wizards that do have access to every spell ever made do you also have an infinitely big spellbook or do you hafta carry 50+ spellbooks with you? I mean a normal spellbook has 100 pages and even a single 9th level spell would take up 18 pages. So high level wizards would either have to make some VERY hard choices about what spells to have or carry multiple spellbooks.

Actually I'm willing to bet that in some supplement I haven't read there is some special spellbook that lets you put as many spells as you want in it....

Core, actually. Generally I recommend it for anyone above 10th level. Alternatively, there's a PrC in one of the completes that reducces all scribing to a single page on 2nd level. Geometer, IIRC.

[Xenogears]

Core, actually. Generally I recommend it for anyone above 10th level. Alternatively, there's a PrC in one of the completes that reducces all scribing to a single page on 2nd level. Geometer, IIRC.

Now if only I had ever owned a DMG I might've known that already......course I thought I had read the SRD in its entirety. Meh still a rather expensive item. Good thing I don't like playing Wizards.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Now if only I had ever owned a DMG I might've known that already......course I thought I had read the SRD in its entirety. Meh still a rather expensive item. Good thing I don't like playing Wizards.

Yeah, like I said it's for when your collection of spellbooks gets beyond your carrying capacity. However, since it saves you 100,000 in the long run, it's worth it at mid-high levels.

[Yuki Akuma]

Another random spellbook related thought. For those wizards that do have access to every spell ever made do you also have an infinitely big spellbook or do you hafta carry 50+ spellbooks with you? I mean a normal spellbook has 100 pages and even a single 9th level spell would take up 18 pages. So high level wizards would either have to make some VERY hard choices about what spells to have or carry multiple spellbooks.

Actually I'm willing to bet that in some supplement I haven't read there is some special spellbook that lets you put as many spells as you want in it....

Spells take up 1 page per spell level (and cantrips take up one page as well).

Also, yes. You would need to carry around a lot of spellbooks at high levels.

This is why my wizards acquire a portable hole and install shelving at the soonest opportunity.

[Xenogears]

Now I know this is just silly but technically since there are so many 0 lvl spells with all the supplement books wouldn't that mean that by RAW (since ALL 0-level Wizard spells are in your spellbook at 1st level) you would have like 3 spellbooks filled with zero level spells at character creation? That would kinda suck huh.....

Also would it be fair to increase the time it takes to prepare spells each day if the Wizard has to go through multiple spellbooks? I mean it just makes sense to have a wizard take longer to search through 8 books picking a spell here and a spell there rather than just one.

[Yuki Akuma]

Now I know this is just silly but technically since there are so many 0 lvl spells with all the supplement books wouldn't that mean that by RAW (since ALL 0-level Wizard spells are in your spellbook at 1st level) you would have like 3 spellbooks filled with zero level spells at character creation? That would kinda suck huh.....

Also would it be fair to increase the time it takes to prepare spells each day if the Wizard has to go through multiple spellbooks? I mean it just makes sense to have a wizard take longer to search through 8 books picking a spell here and a spell there rather than just one.

I can only think of one non-core cantrip, personally. Where are you finding all these other two-hundred and eighty?

Also I would assume most wizards would use bookmarks or something. Or simply remember where their spells are. They are very intelligent. Also, an hour is much longer than you think it is.

[tyckspoon]

Yeah, like I said it's for when your collection of spellbooks gets beyond your carrying capacity. However, since it saves you 100,000 in the long run, it's worth it at mid-high levels.

Blessed Books are also well inside the capabilities of Wish (even a sanely ruled one that re-installs a limit on the value of magic items it can create). Bind an Efreet at first convenience, get it to cough up three Books, and you have all the spellbook space you'll ever need- carry one book with you, make one copy to leave in your portable hole/bag of holding in case something goes wrong, and one copy to stash in your stronghold/base of operations in case things go really wrong.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Also would it be fair to increase the time it takes to prepare spells each day if the Wizard has to go through multiple spellbooks? I mean it just makes sense to have a wizard take longer to search through 8 books picking a spell here and a spell there rather than just one.

The preperation time is basically meditation. You can tack on the time the player spends figuring out spells, but really, what's 15 more minute?