[3.5] Infernal Pacts - are they serious?

[grautry]

So. I've just borrowed friend's Fiendish Codex II and I'm reading through it.

I came upon the Pact section and expected serious badassery there. Especially after reading the V-arc. Sure, once-in-a-century kind of deal, but I still expected that your average infernal dealer would be a seriously powerful dude. After all, if someone forfeits their own soul, you expect that the reward will be appropriately powerful, right?

Apparently not so. Let's assume an, oh, 15th level character.

If he trades his soul for cash, he can receive 120k. Nice, but not terribly awesome. By level 20 that would be about 15% of his total WBL.

Or maybe he can gain 7.8k xp. That's quite nice... But it doesn't even advance him by a level(15k needed to go from 15 to 16).

Or maybe he can get a feat. If he's a skilled bargainer and goes over the default Pact Certain rating, he can get two. Or if he's really badass at bargaining, maybe he can get +2 to an ability(the equivalent of an about 55k Tome).

If you add enough gouda then the "any level" spell slot Pact could give you, say, a 1000th level spell slot, allowing for some insane cheese. But that's clearly not how it's meant to work.

This is weak. This is seriously weak. How in the world did anyone at WotC think that this could be in any way a tempting deal? No sane adventurer would ever, ever, ever do this. All the power you gain from an infernal deal where you sell your own soul is less than what you'd gain if you simply advanced a level. And certainly less if you advanced two.

My question is: did anyone create a homebrew Infernal Pact system that actually offers rewards that would make someone think of selling their own soul?

[Lady Tialait]

What are the mechanical penalties for selling one's soul? If any?

Can you steal someone elses soul and use it, then sell it later?

Just a couple of questions. I'm just like that.

[mostlyharmful]

They seem to be a response to the unbelievably breakable rules for sacrifices in the 3.0 book of vile cheatiness that could give you Wishes and other game breaking stuff for the grand cost of tricking out a skill modifier.

The soul selling rules have the problem that unless they're fairly pansyass the guy that does it and doesn't care about the long term of the campaign can use it to become instantly hideously overpowered, much like the PC that contracts a decent form of lycanthropy. If it isn't at that level then yeah, it'll feel mighty pointless but it wont break your campaign into little tiny slivers.

Personally I'd just rule that you can sell other peoples souls if you have them on hand (tied up and gagged or locked in a soulgem) and then stack the benefits, +1 feat isn't too shabby when you can do it for the cost of a random bar wench, just be sure to play up the consequences in game of that level of diabolism.

[Dr_Horrible]

1) Trap the Soul Gem or that weird metal in Complete Warrior. Free XP/feats/spell slots/ect. Effectively, a new form of treasure.

2) A Necropolitian with Contingent Revive Undead, an Elan with a Cleric Friend, ect: WHo cares about your soul, because you are going to live forever.

[Callos_DeTerran]

V was an exception to the rule, rather then the rule in practically every way. The fact is the whole thing is SUPPOSED to smack of instant gratification with long-term drawback. The fact is it ISN'T supposed to be a good idea, a trick. Picture yourself in this situation, not an adventurer and not knowing the implicit details about Pacts and how devils try to hurry up your side of the payment. Just the plays and stories about people cheating devils.

It's been an incredibly crappy day, it's raining on a Monday, and all you want to do is have a nice pint and kick back. Your farm was one of a few that got burned down by a marauding red dragon. You head down to the tavern and order your favorite brew then told that's it's out. You end up with some piss-poor concoction that could gag a otyugh when your approached by a charming guy you don't remember seeing around town before. He talks you up, seems really sympathetic to your troubles and buys you a pint. A good pint too, then asks you a simple question.

"What if I could help you get back at the dragon? I hear it's got quite the hoard amassed up in it's cave, enough to turn a man's fates around even to set him up as a lord. How much is that worth to you?"

You don't believe, why should you? This is just some crazy bloke with delusions of grandeur. Then he proves it to you. Tells you to ask for any one thing and, thinking him a fool, ask for money. A bag of gold pieces finds it's way unto your belt. Understandably impressed you ask him what his price is.

"When you die, I get your soul. Don't worry about it after that, it'll be out of your hands and you have a good long time to live your life. This is how all the great heroes get started after all."

You think about and agree. Why not? If the man can give you enough power to take down a red dragon, then surely you have nothing to fear from him and you can use the dragon's hoard to get some bishops to cleanse your soul to trick the man.
---

It's only later that you find out the +5 red dragon dread keen longsword coated in dragonsbane is the perfect tool to slay a red dragon. Too bad it's death triggered it's contingencies and revived a clone of the red dragon...and your sword gives a -10 penalty to reflex saves vs. breath weapons. Well hey, you DID slay a dragon.
---

That's how it'd work out. That's how most of them DO work out. You think a campaign specific/ PLOT specific event by a rules anomaly should be the norm, and frankly it shouldn't.

[Starbuck_II]

So. I've just borrowed friend's Fiendish Codex II and I'm reading through it.

I came upon the Pact section and expected serious badassery there. Especially after reading the V-arc. Sure, once-in-a-century kind of deal, but I still expected that your average infernal dealer would be a seriously powerful dude. After all, if someone forfeits their own soul, you expect that the reward will be appropriately powerful, right?

What 1/3rd of a level 30 character is 10 levels.

That is what 3 feats at most. These feats don't have a time limit so the benefits are actually equal when you realize that.

V's soul is worth 3 epic characters for an unspecificed time (ifthey leave her) or she gives up them voluntarily.

She can't even be sure they will last a sesson (only 2 did last a session, as 1 left).

This is weak. This is seriously weak. How in the world did anyone at WotC think that this could be in any way a tempting deal? No sane adventurer would ever, ever, ever do this. All the power you gain from an infernal deal where you sell your own soul is less than what you'd gain if you simply advanced a level. And certainly less if you advanced two.

Dude, adventurers are rarely sane.

My question is: did anyone create a homebrew Infernal Pact system that actually offers rewards that would make someone think of selling their own soul?

The problem is how broken that might be.

Is the +2 ability an inherent bonus or untyped? That is worth more if untyped.

[lesser_minion]

I think a standard mechanic would definitely need to tack on some mechanical penalties to a character if a demon is going to grab their soul when they die. In the very least the instant they die they qualify as dead, gibbed, obliterated, annihilated, eternally destroyed and just plain gone forever.

I think a contract granting your soul to another when you die would also be worth a -8 deduction to charisma at least.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think a standard mechanic would definitely need to tack on some mechanical penalties to a character if a demon is going to grab their soul when they die. In the very least the instant they die they qualify as dead, gibbed, obliterated, annihilated, eternally destroyed and just plain gone forever.

I think a contract granting your soul to another when you die would also be worth a -8 deduction to charisma at least.

Nah, I wouldn't suck him with a Cha penalty, I'd do one worse...

When you die, the demon gets your soul. Period. That means any form of Raise Dead automatically fails. Much like a Soul Gem, in that the soul is not there to put back in the body.

No Clone foolery, no 'Contingency Revivification, so I'm not really dead, right?', if you are Dead, even for an instant, your soul goes to the Demon, and you need to write up a new character, because that one can never be raised. Unless you go kick that demon's ass and get the soul back, which would be an awesome quest.

[Oslecamo]

V Too bad it's death triggered it's contingencies and revived a clone of the red dragon...

And that's how ALL dragons should be played by the DMs! Killing it once is only the beggining of the challenge.

[lesser_minion]

Well, I mentioned doing that as well - admittedly not explicitly blocking out contingent revivifications and so on. But I said annihilated, which explicitly requires the direct intervention of a deity to resolve.

[Eldariel]

"When you die, I get your soul. Don't worry about it after that, it'll be out of your hands and you have a good long time to live your life. This is how all the great heroes get started after all."

What?! What kind of infernal bargaining have you been into? No devil seeking to corrupt you outright tells you that "Yes, this will cost you your soul." except in very special circumstances, like when the mortal is obviously indifferent to his fate in the afterlife. This is entirely in the lawyer territory. The whole point is to get you to sign the contract without really realizing that yes, you are forfeiting your soul.

It will be stated in the contract, yes, but he won't outright tell me "Give me your soul for X" unless the guy is really desperate and might actually do it (like V was - all in all, that was pretty good negotiating considering V's Int). The devils' contracts are long and go to minute details. As much is stated in FCII. Few mortals will be able to read the fine print. It isn't breaking Baatezu Laws not to mention something.


The dealing starts with promises of small power and rewards for doing some obviously evil, but seemingly harmless things. Greater evil for greater power. Tempting offer to any mortal. Then the devil has the decree in the contract that "Once all the promised powers are given, the recipient's immortal soul will belong to Devil X."

I mean, if someone's life or the life of one they love is forfeit, they might in desperation sign a Pact Certain to get out of that situation. But otherwise, there're many cases where the mortal wouldn't knowingly sell his soul, but might just trade something for power. For example, our Really Bad Day man in your example might, or might not sign a pact to sell his soul. I'm fairly sure he would sign a Pact Insidious with a side-clause that forfeits his soul, especially if the devil says something like "The payment for this is soul." and then has a Pact stating "For killing a man, you'll get XnY weapon and the power that can be used to slay the Dragon." The man, given that he's probably not in the most contemplative mood, will likely believe that the devil simply wants the soul of the man he is to kill. Little does he know that the two things are separate - killing the man is just a step in his corruption, and it's his soul that is forfeit once the clauses of the Pact are fulfilled.


Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer contains an awesome section where you can encounter a person who has signed a pact, the devil he signed it with and you'll even get to read the pact itself. It was a pretty beautiful pact overall. A great example of how to get a mortal to condemn themselves.

[JellyPooga]

If I were designing some kind of 'Sold your Soul' rule, I'd simply tack on an arbitary Level Adjustment based on the magnitude of the sale...a morphic template based on the wishes granted and their impact.

Level Adjustment is a purely metagame concept and represents nothing but the equivalent power-ratio of your character in relation to others. If you've sold your soul for something that is the equivalent of 1 character level, BAM! LA +1. The consequences after your character dies are irrelevent because you have a power increase now, so that should be represented now. So if you want to sell your soul in game and your price equals the equivalent of a +10 LA, then as GM I'm well within my rights to insist that your character become an NPC or take no further part (at least until other characters catch up, if that occurs) because it unbalances the player equilibrium.

[Reaper_Monkey]

The ability bonus is never stated as any type, therefore I'd say it was untyped, in which case it really is worth a lot.
And the mechanic isn't as bad as other soul selling ones I've seen due to this one specifying the only cost is that the recipient is unable to be raised, reincarnated or resurrected . It just means you put you total lives left counter to 0 and watch you don't get killed doing something stupid.

However, to get real rewards you have to do acts of corruption (which means you cant be corrupted already) which is the main bane here.
You want +5 on that stat, fair enough, go kill every king in every kingdom, I'll give you +1 for each you kill, plus the cost of your soul when you die.
Only want a +2? Okay, make those two kingdoms declare war on each other, and your soul.
Only want to give your soul? Hmm well I guess you are important, a +1 is fair enough.

The power gain is equal to the evil you do, otherwise why would anyone care to give you that much for you soul, more so if your nothing special.

[Benejeseret]

I have recently taken a new approach to pacts in my game.

The problem with the selling of the soul is that there is NO repercussions to the player. A DM with lots of time on their hands can indeed work in nefarious backfire plans etc and this is the way to go....but really, if the PC gets dead at some point and thus screwed then they re-roll a character as a worst case. Most of my players are fine with re-rolling (they enjoy it).

So, I have started viewing Pacts along the lines of Graft/Symbiont rules. You get something of immediate benefit - but have to immediately take some disadvantage. As they come to use this new power, or even enjoy/rely on it, it adds more and more benefits along with more and more disadvantages until one day....they wake up and they are no-longer really in control of their body.

Eg.

One of my players recently found a great weapon that was designed to tempt him. It was in fact a possessed item. It happens to be a hellfire-hand-cannon.

Equipping to cannon, it burrows its power cords directly into his arm (loss of 5hp permanently, loss of the hand while "equipped") and powers itself off of his soul/body.
Benefit=a good ranged weapon with unlimited ammo

The lure = he can 'boost' its power at a direct cost to his health to mega-blast a stream of hellfire. For every 2hp he loses (non-permanent=untyped damage) he deals a nd6 30' cone of hellfire (so 30hp loss means a 15d6 blast as a standard action) and the total of "n" cannot exceed his HD.

The catch = He thinks it is just a graft and that I'm the coolest DM ever. He thinks the sacrifices of health are balanced to the benefits.
BUT, each time his total hp lost to the item reaches 50hp (I set this according to his level and it may raise by stage) the item 'upgrades'. Also, I work in a secret -2 penalty to any will saves against acting violently (like from a Confusion spell) and describe things to him in a way that leads him toward violent acts. Other violent/evil acts will be counted as 'bonus hp' toward the upgrade and an alignment shift (if the player embraces one) is an auto-stage upgrade

Stage 2

As above, and gains +2 Natural Armour as the weapon integrates farther up his arm. Cost is 2hp more permanently gone (powering weapon) and a -2 to charisma related checks.

Stage 3

Gains the ability to Rage as per a barbarian once per day. Cost is a further -2 on will checks (making it -4) against keeping/regaining control at DM's secret discretion. A wee bit more railroading him into violent and despicable acts.

Stage 3

As above, and gains a +2 profane bonus (I tell him its a weapon enhancement bonus) to hit/damage. The weapons now glows red and infernal whispers radiate from it = Cost of -5 to all hide/move silently checks and any Good clerics etc will react more negatively toward him. First real signs something other than a neat legacy item is in play. Removing the item now become complicated and may need to loose the arm completely.

Stage 4

He gains Powerful Build and the weapon increases a size catagory. He is seriously corrupted physically by now. The power cords/runes/spread of the weapon is all over his upper torso and down through his legs. Cost is that he now radiates a strong evil aura (reactions/spell affects him as if evil even if alignment has not followed), and beneficial divine magic no longer works on him (The Gods refuse!)

Stage 5

Nearly a full conversion. Fully gains a size increase with all related stat advancements. Plus the profane enhancement increases to +3 weapon hit/damage and now armor. His body turns to a brass/metal color and texture and his taint is now impossible to hide. His Rage ability can now go off at any time (DM fiat) and it is very hard for him to regain normal control (similar to a Frenzied Bezerker). If the Player chooses to continue he is doomed.....

Stage 6

The infernal powers fully assume control of his body and he becomes a BBEG of the DM. He has become a mini-Hellfire Engine golem. Did I mention the character was playing a warforged? Yep, hence the Hellfire Engine and the flavor.

This may result in a re-roll...but in my case it results in his soul being cast out of his body as a ghost (he's not 'dead'....just bodyless) he was able to possess another warforge for the battle to re-claim his body.


Edit:
With all this in the works my encounters were designed harder to a) account for his uber-ness and b) help convince him to use the powers.

[Callos_DeTerran]

What?! What kind of infernal bargaining have you been into? No devil seeking to corrupt you outright tells you that "Yes, this will cost you your soul." except in very special circumstances, like when the mortal is obviously indifferent to his fate in the afterlife.

None actually and I also had neither the time or inclination to type out a full on devil contract for what amounted to a limited example. Plus I don't have the lawyer-knowledge to make it seem authentic.

That, and it's never come up in any of the games I've played or run. Either my characters are too good (rare) or smart (more often, in my group I'm forced to play caster types most often) to accept a deal like that. In the games I run...well they haven't come across baatezu yet and two of my (grand total) three players know better then to take devils lightly in any way and the third would rather kill them outright then bargain with them.

[Eldariel]

None actually and I also had neither the time or inclination to type out a full on devil contract for what amounted to a limited example. Plus I don't have the lawyer-knowledge to make it seem authentic.

That, and it's never come up in any of the games I've played or run. Either my characters are too good (rare) or smart (more often, in my group I'm forced to play caster types most often) to accept a deal like that. In the games I run...well they haven't come across baatezu yet and two of my (grand total) three players know better then to take devils lightly in any way and the third would rather kill them outright then bargain with them.

Not even one small Pact with an Imp? I pity thee, young'un - you have missed so much! Now you are obliged to make things happens so your players will be making some faustian pacts. Few things you get you started:
-Devils need not look like devils - Baatezu Laws do not require the devil to show his true form.
-Pact need not be called a pact - it can simply be a written agreement. Just the fact that the paper is signed by both parties is relevant.
-Often Pacts are formed because of the humanoid party having the need and summoning a devil, but certainly there's nothing wrong with a few mighty devils noticing the rapid growth in power of certain virtuous mortals (PCs) and going out of their way to lure them to evil.
-The Humanoids' jobs need not be too obviously evil and they need to have a cover explanation for why the things need to be done for luring good characters to evil. Do note that baatezu laws prohibit the devil from forcing the completion of the humanoid's part of the agreement.

Your job is complete when the party becomes lawful evil, forfeits their immortal souls, becomes a bunch of NPCs under the command of the Great Evil and an added adversary for the next party they roll up, making their quest that much more impossible. Note that corrupting Lawful Good is easier than corrupting Chaotic Good. They already have the strict adherence to law and all that right. They may be a tad Paladinish so few seemingly Kobayashi Maru-situations will take them down quick.


Also note that all of the above is written tongue in cheek. That said, please corrupt your PCs anyways.

[Jothki]

Is there any real need to go for someone's soul the first time? If you genuinely help them out, then odds are that they'll be back.

If I wanted to corrupt someone, I'd start by offering them a few small favors for free or for little cost. Once they're used to going to me for help, I'd jack up the prices but make my assistance more significant as well. Once they've gotten over their hesitation to do evil things in exchange for power and are dependent on what I've given them, I'd let them know that I could take everything I gave them away, and offer to make it permanent in exchange for their soul.

And then I'd leave them alone for the rest of their life once I have their soul, unless they choose to contact me for more power, which I would give them in exchange for whatever corrupt tasks I think are appropriate. Satisfied customers make for good advertising.

[Eldariel]

If I wanted to corrupt someone, I'd start by offering them a few small favors for free or for little cost. Once they're used to going to me for help, I'd jack up the prices but make my assistance more significant as well. Once they've gotten over their hesitation to do evil things in exchange for power and are dependent on what I've given them, I'd let them know that I could take everything I gave them away, and offer to make it permanent in exchange for their soul.

That's what Pact Insidious is for entirely. However, if you can get the soul on the first go, go for it. After all, it's the thing of true interest for the Devil.

And then I'd leave them alone for the rest of their life once I have their soul, unless they choose to contact me for more power, which I would give them in exchange for whatever corrupt tasks I think are appropriate. Satisfied customers make for good advertising.

Depends, in some cases it may be prudent to hasten their death. The one thing they could try is to slay the Devil they made the pact with thus freeing them from his claim (when slain on their homeplane, an outsider is gone for good). It may be prudent to try to counteract that, although of course the Pact itself can go a long way here.

But by and large, yeah, let the short-lived mortals perish on their own - few hundred years is nothing for a devil.

[Mystic Muse]

Not even one small Pact with an Imp? I pity thee, young'un - you have missed so much! Now you are obliged to make things happens so your players will be making some faustian pacts. Few things you get you started:
-Devils need not look like devils - Baatezu Laws do not require the devil to show his true form.
-Pact need not be called a pact - it can simply be a written agreement. Just the fact that the paper is signed by both parties is relevant.
-Often Pacts are formed because of the humanoid party having the need and summoning a devil, but certainly there's nothing wrong with a few mighty devils noticing the rapid growth in power of certain virtuous mortals (PCs) and going out of their way to lure them to evil.
-The Humanoids' jobs need not be too obviously evil and they need to have a cover explanation for why the things need to be done for luring good characters to evil. Do note that baatezu laws prohibit the devil from forcing the completion of the humanoid's part of the agreement.

Your job is complete when the party becomes lawful evil, forfeits their immortal souls, becomes a bunch of NPCs under the command of the Great Evil and an added adversary for the next party they roll up, making their quest that much more impossible. Note that corrupting Lawful Good is easier than corrupting Chaotic Good. They already have the strict adherence to law and all that right. They may be a tad Paladinish so few seemingly Kobayashi Maru-situations will take them down quick.


Also note that all of the above is written tongue in cheek. That said, please corrupt your PCs anyways.

some people don't like evil parties or soul selling. I know that if anybody in my group tried to make a faustian deal and the DM let them I'd be outta there faster than you can say just about any word in ANY language.

don't give the religiouus nutjobs an actual reason to believe D&D is EVIL! (not against religion in any way shape or form. just some of the ideas it somehow produces)

on topic yeah that does seem rather underpowered for selling your soul but given the already mass quantity of them along with the fact that you aren't the ONLY heroes in the world it seems pretty logical and +2 to any stat is equivalent to 8 level ups

[Callos_DeTerran]

Not even one small Pact with an Imp? I pity thee, young'un - you have missed so much! Now you are obliged to make things happens so your players will be making some faustian pacts. Few things you get you started:
-Devils need not look like devils - Baatezu Laws do not require the devil to show his true form.
-Pact need not be called a pact - it can simply be a written agreement. Just the fact that the paper is signed by both parties is relevant.
-Often Pacts are formed because of the humanoid party having the need and summoning a devil, but certainly there's nothing wrong with a few mighty devils noticing the rapid growth in power of certain virtuous mortals (PCs) and going out of their way to lure them to evil.
-The Humanoids' jobs need not be too obviously evil and they need to have a cover explanation for why the things need to be done for luring good characters to evil. Do note that baatezu laws prohibit the devil from forcing the completion of the humanoid's part of the agreement.

Your job is complete when the party becomes lawful evil, forfeits their immortal souls, becomes a bunch of NPCs under the command of the Great Evil and an added adversary for the next party they roll up, making their quest that much more impossible. Note that corrupting Lawful Good is easier than corrupting Chaotic Good. They already have the strict adherence to law and all that right. They may be a tad Paladinish so few seemingly Kobayashi Maru-situations will take them down quick.

Pfft, I don't need lecturing on how to corrupt. I had a master plan (that in all likely hood would have worked) to get all the members of my group to sell my character (yes, I WAS a PC, a harvester devil in fact) their souls. Even if they had refused I would have likely gotten a solid hundred or more of lower levels souls out of it.

As for not even Pacts with little Imps...lets just say that I've talked to the two friends too smart to deal with devils a little too much about the Nine Hells and how the contracts work for them to ever sign anything if they ever even thought there was a devil around. No, not even if it was just a tavern receipt. Yes, it would have been OOC knowledge interfering in the game but I put the fear of Asmodeus in them and for that I am not sorry.

[Dixieboy]

What are the mechanical penalties for selling one's soul? If any?

If i remember correctly it's similar to the hellbreds/outsiders issue, if you die you can't be raised by the usual "Raise dead" spell.

Oh, and you'll be spending eternity (Which is a very, very long time) in hell.

Can you steal someone elses soul and use it, then sell it later?

That should be possible, but what do you mean by "use"?
You should be able to use it for bargaining as devils don't seem to care much about the soul in particular. (It serving as mere coin and playthings for them)

[Lamech]

I've always wondered how do these pacts work with mind-control magic around? "Hello harvester devil I'm thinking about selling my soul. Charm Monster. "Anyway, I just got this new fancy spell it keeps people safe from some mind control magic for 1 day per caster level. Want me to cast it on you? Geas, Mindrape. Alright down to bargening: {Lots of leaglese some things like feats that can be granted and something that the devils can not grant. And of course, no soul if the things aren't granted. All cool stuff is irreversible.}" And then kill the harvester devil.

If I ever get offered a deal with the devil I'm breaking out the mind controls. I also suspect that several pit fiends will be sent after me, but thats okay.

I also recall there being a fairish trial that allows you to weasel your way out of it. And there is nothing that mentioned about the side of truth having an advantage in the case, just pump those skill modifiers.

[Sinfire Titan]

V's soul is worth 3 epic characters for an unspecificed time (ifthey leave her) or she gives up them voluntarily.

She can't even be sure they will last a sesson (only 2 did last a session, as 1 left).

[derail]I'm stopping this thread right here for a second. I've got a Minor in English, so I just can't pass up correcting you.

It's He. Not She. When referencing a gender-unknown object or person in the English language, you automatically assume the masculine term, at least until the actual gender is revealed. Using She to reference a character like V (who is gender-unknown) is grammatically incorrect, no matter how politically correct it may be.

This has seriously been bugging me for years, as humanity has slowly shifted from the proper use of the English language to the butchery that is Politically Correct, all for the sake of refraining from offending a group.

Guess what? English students and professors are a group too. My professor taught me that using the politically correct term is grammatically wrong (for the record, that professor is a woman), and can cost you points on exams.

Why am I mentioning this? Because this mistake has cost me a total of $220 before. I'm letting you know this as a means of preventing the same mistake from reoccurring. If you wish to debate this point, PM me, don't derail the thread any further.[/derail]

[Callos_DeTerran]

I've always wondered how do these pacts work with mind-control magic around? "Hello harvester devil I'm thinking about selling my soul. Charm Monster. "Anyway, I just got this new fancy spell it keeps people safe from some mind control magic for 1 day per caster level. Want me to cast it on you? Geas, Mindrape. Alright down to bargening: {Lots of leaglese some things like feats that can be granted and something that the devils can not grant. And of course, no soul if the things aren't granted. All cool stuff is irreversible.}" And then kill the harvester devil.

That wouldn't work for the same reason devils can't dominate someone and then have them sign the contract while under the influence. It'd be instant bounds to void in a Lawful court if either side was 'under the influence' of mind control spells. The difference being that it's highly unlikely to be fair towards a mortal who mind-controlled a devil and the punishment would be...well...Hellish.

[Lamech]

That wouldn't work for the same reason devils can't dominate someone and then have them sign the contract while under the influence. It'd be instant bounds to void in a Lawful court if either side was 'under the influence' of mind control spells. The difference being that it's highly unlikely to be fair towards a mortal who mind-controlled a devil and the punishment would be...well...Hellish.

This is why the pact specifies irreversible. I'm still not sure how you handle the pit fiends they send after you. And the inevitables. I can still see a chaotic/impulsive character doing this though.

[Callos_DeTerran]

This is why the pact specifies irreversible. I'm still not sure how you handle the pit fiends they send after you. And the inevitables. I can still see a chaotic/impulsive character doing this though.

...If the pact is void, then there would be no irreversible clause. I mean...they have entire teams on Mechanus trying to find loopholes in infernal contracts, especially from the higher up devils. And you believe mind control is the solution no one has thought of?

[Starbuck_II]

It's He. Not She. When referencing a gender-unknown object or person in the English language, you automatically assume the masculine term, at least until the actual gender is revealed. Using She to reference a character like V (who is gender-unknown) is grammatically incorrect, no matter how politically correct it may be.

I agree if V's gender was unknown. But some of us have figured it out. And she is a she.

Why am I mentioning this? Because this mistake has cost me a total of $220 before. I'm letting you know this as a means of preventing the same mistake from reoccurring. If you wish to debate this point, PM me, don't derail the thread any further.

Wait, on Jeopardy?

[Lamech]

...If the pact is void, then there would be no irreversible clause. I mean...they have entire teams on Mechanus trying to find loopholes in infernal contracts, especially from the higher up devils. And you believe mind control is the solution no one has thought of?

I see the point of confusion: The irreversible isn't an artifact of the contract. Its done in such a way the devils can not take back what they gave; the contract specifies the way in which the power is granted, not the devils can't take it back. And mindcontrol wouldn't be a loophole; it would just be you being subverting devilish tyrants and their system of contracts. Needlesly, because if the devil can give you such power, and you could control them one could say "Give me xyz" The only two stickers are the retribution, which will probably involve a destroyed soul on your part, and if the Harvester Devil has the power. (A "lower-down" could be the one with the free feat bag.)

This is a bad idea. It will get you killed/obliterated/tortured for all eternity. Assuming the devils can't do it directly they can have a damned servent do it for them. It just looks good on paper or if your epic enough to curb-stomp a lord of hell.

P.S. Sorry for the confusion

@Sinfire: V is female. Hence the use of she.

[lsfreak]

Well, as RAW, the soul can always be given back, even after dead. The problem with mind control is that it is one of the two defense a soul actually has in gaining control back. And let's be honest, unless the devil was really certain he could win the ensuing court hearing, he wouldn't risk controlling the mind if he could gradually corrupt the soul (after all, it's more fun that way anywho).

[Sebastian]

What I think is a good example of this kind of things could be played is the book "needful things" by Stephen King. You don't buy the soul, you arrange things so that at the end the soul of your customer is so corrupted that is pratically yours, and in doing so he corrupt the souls of many other people.