Tell me about D20 modern!

[Da King]

One of my friends is starting a Zombie Survival RPG using d20 modern, and the first session is going to be on Sunday. I have been looking through the SRD document, and the system looks pretty neat, but I don't have enough time between now and then to find out what the differences are between D20 and 3.5 D&D. Can someone give me a basic overview of the system, and any important differences between D20 and D&D?

[Skaroq]

Well, there are six core classes, each based on the six ability scores(which are the same). Not only do you have Feats, you also get Talents. You also can have Reputation modifiers. If your Reputation modifier is high, then there's a greater chance that your character could, say, get into a private nightclub without a place on the list, but it would also make you a target for assassins. You don't use actual currency in D20 Modern, that would be ridiculous, trying to balance your character's checkbook as well as your own. Instead, you make a Wealth check, with certain modifiers depending on your background and how wealthy you are. Your background is determined by the single starting occupation you choose. For example, if your starting occupation is Entrepreneur(prerequisite: age 18+), then you gain a +1 Reputation increase and a +4 Wealth increase, and you get to choose two of the following skills as permanent class skills.(If you already have that skill as a class skill, you receive a +1 competence bonus on making a check with that skill): Bluff, Diplomacy, Gamble, Knowledge(business, current events, or technology). I'd also recommend checking out the Feats section, and the Equipment section. Maybe you should brush up on the Skills chapter, too.

[Dhavaer]

Combat is also different, in that you get a class defence bonus as well as an attack bonus, and the massive damage threshold is much lower, being equal to your Constitution. So a higher level character can more easily avoid attacks than an equal level D&D character, but is also more likely to be seriously wounded by them if they hit. You also don't die if you fail your save against massive damage, you just drop to -1.
Non-lethal damage is quite poorly done; it has no effect on you as long as it doesn't hit your massive damage threshold. If it does, you make your save, and if you pass you're dazed for one round, if you fail you're unconscious for 1d4+1 rounds. You also don't accumulate non-lethal damage; it's all calculated by single attacks.

Edit: As well as prestige classes (which aren't in the core book, they're introduced in Urban Arcana) there's also advanced classes, which you can qualify for at level 3 if you have the right class.
You should also note that BAB is generally lower in Modern; 3/4 BAB is normal for combat classes.

[SurlySeraph]

A Strong hero with Melee Smash and Power Attack will do more damage by clubbing someone with a gun than by shooting them with it.
Reflex saves matter a lot more than in DnD, because you'll be faced with a lot more explosives and automatic weapons than death spells and mind control. In a zombie apocalypse, you'll want high Fortitude saves to avoid getting infected.
Weapons with an autofire setting are very useful. If your target's defense is too good to hit, just use autofire - it'll take half damage automatically, and likely full. If there are a bunch of enemies and you only have one attack per round, autofire and spray them. And Burst Fire is a great way to get more damage in.
Shotguns are decidedly underpowered unless house rules are used. Use assault rifles or powerful pistols. Or melee weapons.
Firing a gun provokes an attack of opportunity. If there's an enemy adjacent to you, take a five foot step back before you attack; if you're in confined spaces or surrounded and thus can't do that, use your gun as a club. Smacking someone with a rifle or shotgun is 1d6 damage, and pistol whipping is 1d4.
You get a lot more feats and skill points than in DnD. Use them.
Multiclassing is very often a good idea. A level in Fast Hero is a great dip, for the added defense bonus and talent.

[Zincorium]

-Don't use shotguns, the book is biased thoroughly against them, other than the rule of cool there is no reason whatsoever to pick them over another gun.

-Double tap is your friend. Damage bonuses for guns are very difficult to obtain.

-Magic backs up your skill with weapons, it will never replace it.

-Multiclassing rocks. So do most advanced classes. This may drive you nuts.

-You can do just about anything, take advantage of this fact.

[Dhavaer]

Weapons with an autofire setting are very useful. If your target's defense is too good to hit, just use autofire - it'll take half damage automatically, and likely full.

Actually, Autofire is save negates, not save half.

[LurkerInPlayground]

-Don't use shotguns, the book is biased thoroughly against them, other than the rule of cool there is no reason whatsoever to pick them over another gun.

This doesn't seem quite apropos for a zombie game. Zombie apocalypses being naturally biased in the other direction.

[SaiphSDC]

How is Modern biased against shotguns...i.e. what am I missing?

[sonofzeal]

My highly limited experience....

- Multiclassing is very much encouraged. There's no xp penalty anymore, and the six base classes play off well against eachother.

- There's a feat chain somewhere ("Fast Plus"/"Strong Plus"/etc, I think) that gives you extra talents from a class you have; use it, it rocks.

- Feats in general are far easier to get than in 3.5, and you should expect to have them coming out the wazzoo. Skill boosting feats are not so uncommon here, especially because a lot of the class bonus feats fall into that category.

- The way wealth works makes for speedy gameplay, but sacrifices realism. Of particular note is that it matters what order you buy your starting gear in.

[InaVegt]

- The way wealth works makes for speedy gameplay, but sacrifices realism. Of particular note is that it matters what order you buy your starting gear in.

It's not so much unrealistic as abstracted, the entire point of it is that it models real world systems reasonably well, without needing the players to calculate their living allowances, car downpayments, rent, mortgage, or similar.

[Dhavaer]

How is Modern biased against shotguns...i.e. what am I missing?

They're weaker than equivalent assault rifles; same damage, same price or thereabouts, lower range. There's no reason to use a shotgun instead of a hunting rifle.

The X Plus feats, incidentally, are in d20 Future.

[Attilargh]

How is Modern biased against shotguns...i.e. what am I missing?

Not only do they lose accuracy at range, they also lose damage. This, combined with their short range increments, low ammo capacity, lack of autofire and mediocre damage to begin with make them objectively worse than almost any other longarm that fires bullets. (Except maybe the MP5K. That one bites hard.)

According to people who know about guns, this is not realistic.

[Zincorium]

First off, there is an article on Wotc's website for D20 modern, in the Bullet Points section, where one of the authors basically claims that shotguns are only good in other games because they have fanboys, and follows up with the claim that police departments are replacing shotguns with rifles because of shotguns not doing enough damage.

Both according to real life experience and D20 Modern's own damage model, shotguns should do a significant amount of soft tissue damage, especially considering someone got the brain dead idea to make 3 inch shells, which are considered magnum in the real world, the default size, and 2 3/4 do -1 damage.

Personally, I give players who are using the point blank shot feat and a shotgun +4 damage instead of the usual bonus. It means the feat works best when used with weapons that are supposed to be utilized in that manner, and it means that shotguns have their own niche where they shine while not being overpowered in general.

[Asbestos]

First off, there is an article on Wotc's website for D20 modern, in the Bullet Points section, where one of the authors basically claims that shotguns are only good in other games because they have fanboys, and follows up with the claim that police departments are replacing shotguns with rifles because of shotguns not doing enough damage.

Sounds like there is one seriously misinformed employee at WotC.

[OverWilliam]

First off, there is an article on Wotc's website for D20 modern, in the Bullet Points section, where one of the authors basically claims that shotguns are only good in other games because they have fanboys, and follows up with the claim that police departments are replacing shotguns with rifles because of shotguns not doing enough damage.

Both according to real life experience and D20 Modern's own damage model, shotguns should do a significant amount of soft tissue damage, especially considering someone got the brain dead idea to make 3 inch shells, which are considered magnum in the real world, the default size, and 2 3/4 do -1 damage.

This. Depending on what load you're using, using one shell of 00 Buck (this being 12 gauge, mind you) basically equates to launching nine 9mm BBs at the same time, at almost the same speed as a 9mm pistol would, with nearly as much accuracy as a pistol can be expected to manage (depending on the pistol and personal skill). Think about that. One shotgun shell is comparable to pulling the trigger on a 9mm pistol nine times. And that's 12 gauge-- it goes up higher than that.

Personally, I give players who are using the point blank shot feat and a shotgun +4 damage instead of the usual bonus. It means the feat works best when used with weapons that are supposed to be utilized in that manner, and it means that shotguns have their own niche where they shine while not being overpowered in general.

I personally give a +2 to both Attack and Damage to Shotguns with this feat; one of the major problems my (newbie) players have with the shotgun (this viewed from a purely rule-of-cool angle) is that they're missing so often with it. "Come on!! He's RIGHT THERE! He's been standing in the same place for three rounds! How could I miss? I wouldn't have missed..." They don't mind as much for pistols or assault rifles--if you pull the trigger at the wrong time, even if you don't know it's the wrong time, you'll miss--but shotguns hold an implied amount of accuracy compensation. All you gotta do is catch them somewhere within the spread and you'll be golden. And any time you have your players honestly believing that they could do something better than their larger-than-life, Action Hero, bullet-chomping, damsel-wooing, zombie-head-exploding, in-game alter egos... and in your heart you know that they're actually right? Something has gone horribly, horribly wrong.


Back to talking about d20 Modern; Healing works very different in this system than in DnD. Since there's no such thing as Healing magic, all damage has to be healed normally (save for a measly 1d4 that can be healed with a first aid kit, but even that can only be used once per day). So basically, you don't have HP to spare-- every attack you don't have to take is another two days you won't have to be on complete bedrest before getting back up and at 'em. This is especially a problem in a Zombie survival scenario, because the heroes don't really have time to take a week's R&R to get their HP back up.


EDIT: Also--

Sounds like there is one seriously misinformed employee at WotC.

This too.

[SaiphSDC]

I don't recall seeing the rule where damage for shotguns decreases with distance...unless you talk about the innate damage average done with decreasing accuracy over range (due to shorter range increments).

Another note is the default ammo listed for the shotguns is buckshot...which does spread quite a bit. One thing I'd do with shotguns is introduce more 'specialty' ammo, like launchable grenades, bean bag shots, etc...

But I see your points, it does seem low damage for a shotgun at close range.


On the wealth system: I like it. Especially since you can use it to see if you have peripheral equipment you wouldn't have thought about. You own a house, you need a shovel, you don't necessarily have to go out and buy one if it isn't on your sheet. You do a wealth check and see if you already have one handy. Same for things you might have in your car, etc. You can use the wealth system to see if you happen to have the equipment on hand already. If you're rich, you probably have the jumper cables, if you aren't, you may not :)

I LIKE the wealth system for a modern setting. But yeah, definetly pay attention to the order you buy things. Buy all your cheap stuff first, cause if it's cheap enough compared to your wealth score, you'll automatically get it, with no penalty to your score. Then get the expensive items, which will lower your score, and go down the list from high to low then.

[Dhavaer]

I don't recall seeing the rule where damage for shotguns decreases with distance...unless you talk about the innate damage average done with decreasing accuracy over range (due to shorter range increments).

Found here.

Shotguns are large-bore weapons that primarily fire shells full of small projectiles. They tend to be powerful, but only at short range. Reduce shotgun damage by 1 point for every range increment of the attack.

[Attilargh]

I don't recall seeing the rule where damage for shotguns decreases with distance...unless you talk about the innate damage average done with decreasing accuracy over range (due to shorter range increments).

No, I mean you get -1 to damage for every range increment. It's in the equipment section, under the "Longarms" header. I can't give you a page number due to only having the SRD, but click here and do a search for "shotgun damage".

Ædit: Dammit, Dhavaer, this is the second time in one thread!

[Yora]

But shouldn't a hit with a shotgun at close range do much more damage than a single 7mm rifle bullet?

But then, d20 modern doesn't have rules for armor that works like armor.

[Dhavaer]

But shouldn't a hit with a shotgun at close range do much more damage than a single 7mm rifle bullet.

Yes, that's why people say that shotguns are underpowered in Modern.

[Da King]

Couple of things:
1) The DM is not using the wealth system, he says he'll use a "favors" system instead, probably based on reputation or something. I'm not sure exactly what he means though, we both like the wealth system and I'm going to try to convince him to use it.

2) Healing probably isn't going to be too much of a problem. He says that there will be medical kits and other ways to heal yourself.

3) The shotgun thing really sucks, I was planning on using one. What would you recommend? Maybe double the range, increase the damage a bit and use the suggestion about point blank shot, changing it to +4 damage. Is this a bit much?

[Tsotha-lanti]

Shotguns with buckshot: make it a line or slowly-expanding cone of effect you roll a Reflex save against, damage (starts high) and DC decrease with range. If you're caught flat-footed, no save or a hefty penalty.

[chiasaur11]

Reminds me of my first experience with Halo 2's shotguns.

Not a fun weapon. Didn't drop a guy even if he was ten feet away.