A buff on sneak attacks.

[Greengiant]

So, I want to know if this is a good idea, probably not, in fact, probably I am going to be yelled at for the stupidest idea ever, but whatever.

Anyway, I felt that a rogue's sneak attacks weren't deadly enough, compared to other classes bonuses to damage, like a duskblade's disintegrate spell on his sword, can anyone say mad damage? Or a wizards complete destructivity, or a druid's. I felt that if a rogue was able to get a specifically aimed shot to a weak point, it should have a higher chance of critical than a regular attack, so here's my solution.

I doubled the critical strike range when you perform a sneak attack. For example, a dagger with 19-20/x2 would have 17-20/x2, and a kukri with 18-20/x2 would have 15-20/x2.

Sound game breaking? I think, maybe, but it makes sense.

[Gorbash]

Well, that's only a nerfed Improved Critical, so if given at high enough lvl (say, 10) it wouldn't be game breaking, since there are still sooooo many ways to negate a sneak attack (stand in a shadowed area, for example).

And that MAD damage of a disintegrate spell is only on a failed Fort save, which are the highest in the game, so it's not as broken as you think.

And no, it doesn't make sense, since +XD6 aldy represent that you're striking vital parts of a creature. And anyways, weapon + str damage isn't the main source of Rogue damage, so you're not actually buffing them that much.

[Greengiant]

Well, that's only a nerfed Improved Critical, so if given at high enough lvl (say, 10) it wouldn't be game breaking, since there are still sooooo many ways to negate a sneak attack (stand in a shadowed area, for example).

And that MAD damage of a disintegrate spell is only on a failed Fort save, which are the highest in the game, so it's not as broken as you think.

I was thinking less of a level dependency, and more of a dexterity dependency, like 18 or something.

Also, I know the duskblade isn't gamebreaking, it makes total sense, I didn't mean it like that.

Also, another thing I was thinking of using, was actually brought up by one of my players, he has ranks in Knowledge (Humanoid Anatomy), and I was thinking of using a synergy there to give him extra sneak attack damage, like, every 5 points in this knowledge gives him an extra dice category.

For example, 20 Rogue, sneak attacks with his Kukri.

1d4 Dmg +10d6 Sneak, 15-20/x2 crit chance.

But then because he has 5 points in Knowledge (Humanoid Anatomy) he gets an extra 1d4 sneak attack damage. And then if he had 10, he'd go up a dice category, and do 1d6.

5 1d3
10 1d6
15 1d8
20 1d10

Thoughts?

[Gorbash]

This isn't really a discussion for this forum, since you've gone from 'simple class fix' to 'inventing new knowledges to synergize with class abilities'. You have a Homebrew forum, post it there.

My thoughts are that it's needless and pointless, since Rogues don't really need it.

[Riffington]

My initial thoughts are:
1. Concerned about this increasing the likelihood of TPKs.
2. Why do you have a Knowledge (anatomy)? Rogues should get this free if it's just for flavor, and you probably don't want to get into a situation where people trade their skill points for more damage.
3. If you want a rogue to be better in combat, give him a level in Barbarian (possibly with Whirling dervish). +2 hit/damage and an extra attack will give a rogue a high likelihood of killing an opponent before their initiative ever comes up.
4. The real issue is that spells are overpowered.

[Faleldir]

I have an idea!

Maybe you could let Rogues sacrifice some of their Sneak Attack dice for ability damage. Would that be balanced?

[The Glyphstone]

Knowledge Devotion would fit that roll just fine - it is, quite literally, trading skill points for damage.

[Greengiant]

I have an idea!

Maybe you could let Rogues sacrifice some of their Sneak Attack dice for ability damage. Would that be balanced?

Hmmm, sounds interesting, like a crippling strike or something like that. Well I have a system for called shots and individual limb and body part health. But I'm not going to get into that.

[Tehnar]

I take it from your post you haven't had a rogue/assassin with wraithstrike and two weapon fighting line get off a full attack? It starts at cca +24d6 at level 10 and moves on up from there.

Ill elaborate: Rogue 5/Assassin 5 with two weapon fighting. Hasted. With 16 INT can cast lvl 3 assasin spells -->wraithstrike--> all attacks are vs touch AC.
So his full attack is +4/+4/-1, +4; So 4 attacks, barring any natural 1s you should hit with all of them vs touch. Assuming you use daggers its 4d4+24d6 = 92 dmg +4x(static bonuses). All it takes is flanking and the opportunity to unleash a full attack. Not much at that level will survive this.


Rogue sneak attack is fine as is. You can optimize for it, and then its deadly. Or if you choose not to, its a nice source of bonus damage sometimes.

[Dixieboy]

I have an idea!

Maybe you could let Rogues sacrifice some of their Sneak Attack dice for ability damage. Would that be balanced?

Already exists. Nice idea though.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The problem with Sneak Attack is the fact that so many creatures are outright immune to it. It's just a weak mechanic from the start, and a character based around a weak mechanic will be a weak character. You could make a Psychic Rogue or go into Psychic Assassin and get Mind Cripple, which with TWF can outright disable most opponents in one or two full attacks regardless of HP damage. A Wizard with Split Ray and Ray of Stupidity can do the same thing though, as can a Beguiler who takes that spell via Advanced Learning.

If a player wants to make that kind of character, point them toward Swordsage. If a player wants to make the party rogue point them toward Beguiler. It has been my personal experience that most people who insist on playing a Rogue are too lazy to make a more complex character. These are my skills, this is how many dice I get per attack, and no more effort beyond that. If they don't want to put forth the effort to make a better character, it's not your job as the DM to do it for them by 'fixing' the only game mechanic that's easy enough for them to use.

[Gorbash]

The problem with Sneak Attack is the fact that so many creatures are outright immune to it

Not only that, there's a bunch of other conditions that negate sneak attack. Poor illumination, vitals being out of reach (for Huge++ thingies), any sort of concealment, uncanny dodge and of course, bunch of low level spells that replicate those conditions - darkness, blur etc.

And of course - Undead, Elementals, Oozes, Plants, Golems and any other I've missed.

[Greengiant]

Not only that, there's a bunch of other conditions that negate sneak attack. Poor illumination, vitals being out of reach (for Huge++ thingies), any sort of concealment, uncanny dodge and of course, bunch of low level spells that replicate those conditions - darkness, blur etc.

And of course - Undead, Elementals, Oozes, Plants, Golems and any other I've missed.

I see the rogue's sneak a viable main attack in the campaign I'm running because the rogue is a Drow, darkvision negates poor illumination, also a houserule of mine is that uncanny dodge only works if you know that the person sneak attacking is behind you, also, our campaign takes place in a city, so humanoids are the main adversaries.

[icefractal]

Another factor is that while a TWF full-attacking Rogue does loads of damage, a "take one shot from hiding" Rogue is quite underwhelming. If that's your issue, then you might add something like this:

Precise Attack
Preqs: Sneak Attack
Benefit: As a full round action, you can make a single attack which deals double the normal sneak attack damage. At 8th level, it deals triple, and at 15th level, it deals quadruple.

Still less powerful than a fully optimized Rogue - and you could increase the multiplier in an optimized campaign; but at least it gives the "shot from hiding" Rogue some purpose.

[Gorbash]

I see the rogue's sneak a viable main attack in the campaign I'm running because the rogue is a Drow, darkvision negates poor illumination, also a houserule of mine is that uncanny dodge only works if you know that the person sneak attacking is behind you, also, our campaign takes place in a city, so humanoids are the main adversaries.

Why stop there? Give them wizard's spellcasting.

[Greengiant]

Why stop there? Give them wizard's spellcasting.

Woah, please, enough with the hostility and sarcasm. I appreciate your opinions, but seriously, I understand you think it's overpowered, and that's all I need really, unless this is directly affecting you, there's really no need to get so hostile.

And for your information I already did give them wizard spellcasting lol, though I won't go into details on my homebrew structure as this is not the homebrew board, as you pointed out earlier.

It's based off the Malazan Book of the Fallen setting, where many people can use magic if trained properly, and one of the main group of assassins, known as the claws, use it quite often in combat.

When I have a campaign that's based off of rogues and other sneaky people in a city setting, it only makes sense to buff them up so they have a chance against wizards. There heroes, not schmoes that get denied their sneak attacks because someones "intuition" at that precise moment tells them to dodge, without even sensing their adversary approach, that's just how I see uncanny dodge.

[Faleldir]

I can't say Uncanny Dodge is realistic, but any creature to whom Uncanny Dodge applies at all is flat-footed and cannot "know" about the attack in any useful sense except by DM fiat. If you want to nerf it, at least allow a save.

[Baron Corm]

Increasing threat range for any sneak attack is a bad idea, imo. First of all, sneak attack damage isn't multiplied on a critical hit. Second of all, this allows 1-level dips in rogue to double your threat range, for a character that depends more on weapon damage.

If you made it "-1 threat range per 2 sneak attack dice", then also allowed sneak attacks to be multiplied on a critical hit, I think that would be good.

I think the Knowledge (anatomy) thing is a little silly, because the sneak attack ability represents that already. And then the skill becomes a given for every single rogue. You might as well just increase their damage and subtract skill points.

As for Uncanny Dodge, I think that you should make that scaling as well, not an all-or-nothing deal. Like, reduces sneak attack dice by 1 per 2-5 class levels.

[half eaten oreo]

I've been allowing the pathfinder sneak attack in my current 3.5 game. The party is currently lvl 7 and I have yet to notice any issue with it.

Sneak attack now works against nearly every creature you might face. While some might have specific immunity, the change was made so that rogues might be more effective in combat regardless of the adventure. Now it represents being able to find a weak spot more than striking at vital organs. Generally speaking, only creatures that do not have a weak spot at all, either due to a homogenous nature or nearindestructible build, are immune to sneak attack. Examples might include air, earth, fire, and water elementals, most oozes and some undead.

[Thespianus]

The problem with Sneak Attack (as I was made painfully aware of during last night's session) is not that the damage when you hit is weak, but rather that there's a lot of monsters that are immune.

If you wanna help your player, give him access to some kind of homebrew feat (such as Favored Enemy) but for Sneak Attack. With the feat Favored Sneak Attack(constructs) he'd be able to sneak attack Constructs. With Favored Sneak Attack(oozes), he'd be able to sneak attack oozes, etc.

Any Rogue going the TWF route will be feat starved enough that he won't be able to take more than one or two of these anyways. ;)

Otherwise, tell your player to suck it down. He's a Rogue, not a Whirling Death Machine of Death. ;)

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Penetrating Strike ACF from Dungeonscape allows him to SA Undead, Plants, and Constructs. That leaves Oozes and Elementals immune, which is helpful. Then he only needs to find a way to overcome Fortification, Concealment, and Uncanny Dodge.

However, damage is not the problem. A 9th level Rogue with Haste(or Boots of Speed) tosses 18d6+27(90), before weapon enhancements. How many things are surviving that?

[Saph]

Yeah, I'm really not seeing Sneak Attack being weak. It can do ridiculous amounts of damage in the hands of a lucky or min-maxed character. The problem isn't the damage, the problem is that many creatures are immune.

Boosting the power of Sneak Attack further in the hands of an optimised character would turn it into a win/lose ability - either you SA them and they die, or you fail to SA them and do nothing. I don't think this would make for very fun battles.

- Saph

[TheOOB]

Sneak attack is fine as is. It does plenty of damage per level, it's the rest of the rogue that has problems. Thats why WotC invented PrCs.

[Sinfire Titan]

Anyway, I felt that a rogue's sneak attacks weren't deadly enough, compared to other classes bonuses to damage, like a duskblade's disintegrate spell on his sword, can anyone say mad damage? Or a wizards complete destructivity, or a druid's. I felt that if a rogue was able to get a specifically aimed shot to a weak point, it should have a higher chance of critical than a regular attack, so here's my solution.

How come I'm the only one to mention the problem with this line?


Duskblades can't channel Rays into their weapon. Only spells with a range of Touch. Ranged Touch spells require Enlightened Fist levels.

[Bayar]

Give your rogue a free ambush feat every X levels if he normally qualifies for it. Remember, a true optimiser KNOWS that more sneak attack dice are not equal to more deadly-ness

[Killer Angel]

Yeah, I'm really not seeing Sneak Attack being weak. It can do ridiculous amounts of damage in the hands of a lucky or min-maxed character. The problem isn't the damage, the problem is that many creatures are immune.

- Saph

Penetrating strike can help, but even without this, i've no big problem with creatures immune do SA.
A good rogue with max UMD, has always an ace up his sleeve.
"a golem? mmm... were's that scroll of grease?" IMO a well build rogue, should be prepared for a lot of things (as a wizard), in case he cannot do direct damage with SA.
And it's even more fun, 'cause you're not binded to the same routine for each encounter.

[Talic]

There are feats that allow 1/2 sneak attack to apply to undead.

There are weapon crystals that do the same for undead or constructs.

So, let's take a TWF Rogue, level 13. +7d6 sneak.
BAB +9/+4
Ability bonus: +5
Magic weapons: +3 enhancement bonus, x2
Weapon crystals: Greater Truedeath, greater (anti-construct)

Now. Assuming flanking, character will have, when TWF'ing.

+15/+15/+10/+10
Assuming shortswords, they'll each do 1d6+str+sneak attack
So, 8d6+str (28+str) per attack.

Undead and Constructs are the most common Sneak Attack Immune Characters, so most of the issue is alleviated.

Assuming Full hits above: 112 + (str x 4). Even with a 14 str, that's 120 damage. Vs Constructs/Undead, you'll get 1/2 sneak attacks, so knock off 49 damage.

Alternately, with the Feat for 1/2 sneak vs undead, you can go 2 greater anti construct crystals, adn get full sneak vs construct, 1/2 vs undead.

That's 120 vs constructs, and about 70 versus undead.

[Greengiant]

How come I'm the only one to mention the problem with this line?


Duskblades can't channel Rays into their weapon. Only spells with a range of Touch. Ranged Touch spells require Enlightened Fist levels.

Right, you caught me, I know nothing about duskblades, I'm playing a total homebrew campaign with a new magic system and totally new classes, and the spell sword class is totally re-vamped. I apologize.

Thank everyone for all their input, I now know that sneak attack doesn't need a buff, by general consensus. Alas I will be doubling the critical anyway, just because I feel sneak attack is trying to hit critical areas anyway. Plus, doubling or even tippling the base attack of a weapon isn't that much is it? A base extra d4 to a sneak attack with a kukri wouldn't break anything, I hope, and it would appease my players, who insist on having convincing logic.

[Curmudgeon]

First of all, sneak attack damage isn't multiplied on a critical hit.

Not quite true. Sneak attack dice aren't multiplied. But add Craven and you've got a constant bonus that is multiplied on criticals.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

[Yakk]

Takeout Strike:
Starting at level 4 on the first sneak attack of a round, a Rogue may forfeit their ability to do more sneak attacks in exchange for a higher sneak attack damage die.

At Rogue level 4, this increases the damage die to d8s. (4.5 * L/2)
At Rogue level 8, d10s, and explode on 1s (6.111 * L/2)
At Rogue level 12, roll 2d6 instead of each standard 1d6 sneak attack die, and explode on 1s (8.4 * L/2)
At Rogue level 16, roll 3d6 instead of 1d6, and explode on 1s (12.6 * L/2)
At Rogue level 20, roll d20s for sneak attack damage, and explode on an 10 or under (21 * L/2)

"Explode" means "if you roll that value, reroll the particular die and add in the original roll". Average damage (assuming all rogue levels) listed after each point.

The above makes a 'sneak up and make a single strike' rogue do about as much damage as a 'full attack wraithstrike blender rogue' from sneak attack damage.

It also gives a rather kick ass capstone.

I chose "explode on low die amounts" because it boosts average damage just as much as "explode on high damage amounts", without creating a ridiculous amount of damage variance.

And yes, a level 20 rogue will be rolling 10d20 for damage, adding it up, then rerolling every die that rolled 10 or under (and recursing). The least damage a level 20 rogue does with a (once per round) sneak attack is 110 damage, and the average is 210, under the above system.

Making multiple attacks is quite useful for a 'single-strike' rogue, because it gives you more chances to land your single sneak attack per round. It isn't, however, the be-all and end-all of optimising your rogue.