[3.5] Need proof that casters more broken than ToB

[Frosty]

One of my friends wants to ban Tome of Battle after having played it in one camapign himself nad having witnessed it played in 3 campaigns, saying they break the game. Yet, he doesn't want to ban spellcasters. I need your help to prove to him that casters break campaigns a lot more than Tome of Battle characters do. What I need are builds at level 11 and 18 that will be even more effective in battle than ToB characters.

Books allowed: PHB, PHB2, DMG, MM1, all the Completes (including Complete Champion), Races of the Wild, Races of Dragon, Races of Destiny, Races of Stone, Spell Compendium, Magic Item compendiun, Drow of the Underdark, Fiendish Codex 1 and 2, Frostburn.

Restrictions: No Campaign-specific materials. So, nothing from Eberron or Faerun allowed (no Incantatrix cheese for example). No Celerity. No Shivering touch. No spells that turn you evil like Avasculate. No Dragon magazine material. Karma beads not allowed

I'm guessing go DMM Persist cleric to be melee monster. Not sure what MM1 forms to go with as a Druid, but Druids are uber anyways. With the Sorc I'm thinking go nuts for Orb of Fire and stacking metamagic reducers like crazy. Wizard not sure yet, Probably go Spontaneous Divination variant and do standard Batman.

Remember. This is not PVP. This is probably having the characters going through a series of different encounters (both team and solo, and sometimes known beforehand, and sometimes surprised) and see who has an easier time.

[Shinizak]

Barbarian with 2 weapon fighting and power attack buffed with bull's strength, enlarge person, haste and is currently raging. could be done at 3rd level, and each attack deals about 11-15 damage each, and you get 4 attacks.

[Douglas]

I take it he's running a formal test for you, with your party having casters in place of his party's ToB characters?

I can think of two different approaches you might try to go for here:
1) Go overkill and demonstrate just how thoroughly broken casters can be.
2) Make powerful but not overtly broken characters that don't rely too much on any one thing.

With the first approach, you should massacre everything you come across but you might end up achieving nothing more than adding Persistent Spell, Nightsticks, and maybe a few others things to his banned list. The second approach will not overshadow the ToB party as much and will be more difficult to optimize properly without crossing over into option 1, but if done well will prove your point better. Which do you want to try?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I assume your doing a caster-only party or something. The exact setup will determine some specific points of the build(do we need a Kobold Cloistered Cleric to replace the Rogue, etc)

Druid beats any of them. Use any of the tricks to keep your gear, go with a Monk's Belt for AC, pick something big and dangerous for a companion, and utelize horrible, horrible spells(Blinding Spittle from SpC is a perfect example). Basic optimization with that will make him ban core.

For the Cleric, either Kobold Domain and Cloistered to make up for the lack of a trapmonkey, or go War Weaver with Reach spell meta-reduced(no Heroes of Battle, so just go normal buffmeister Cleric with a different PrC) to buff the party to high heaven(using a Bead of Karma, Divine Spell Power, and similar CL-boosts), then use Detect Trap. Going CZilla is generally too much trouble for too little reward, especially if you want a party to do well more than an individual.

Sorcerer, I recommend going Glass Cannon. Take Heighten and Quicken Spell, lose the Familiar for Rapid Metamagic, and toss out massive Save-or-Dies, AoE Battlefield Control, and no-save Rays. Don't forget Wings of Cover and Flurry. Use Runestaves to supplement spells known, and Fly, Blink, and otherwise avoid danger.

Wizard, don't go Batman. That term has been overused to the point of meaninglessness. Go God

Or just give him the thread on 20th level magic v 20th level Psionics, then ask if either would be worried by a martial adept.

[Eldariel]

*shrug* There's a thousand ways for casters to be "better" than melee with that many sources. DMM: Persist Cleric is probably the easiest comparison - they do the same thing, only DMM: Persist Cleric's numbers are off the charts. Use Extend Spell in conjuction for 48 hour spells to double the number of persistable stuff.

Druid just buffs with Greater Magic Fangs and what-have-yous and have biggest AC available on any given level (with or without Natural Bond to mitigate the level adjustment) and Wildshapes, if not thinking of anything better, to a generic Dire Bear/Tiger/flyer/Tendriculous/whatever. Then packs some offensive magic and dispels and whatever. Wilding Clasped Monk's Belts and so on.

And Wizard focused on disabling things rocks on those levels. Contingencies and Greater Mirror Images and what-have-yous should keep you alive, along with the Heart of X-spells (on all day) and such.

Sorcerer could be a versatile build with 1 Save-or-X per save (say, Glitterdust/Web/Stinking Cloud) and Heighten Spell. Then focus the rest on utility and pack that one Boom Boom spell. Maybe Sudden Metamagic with Residual Magic to make few Big Booms every now and then. Or Arcane Thesis.

[Frosty]

We haven't agreed upon the exact details of the test yet, but I don't think it'll be a party of 4 casters vs 5 ToBers. It'll probably be a solo test and then a test within a standard party.

See, he seems to think that a ToB character can solo monsters 4 CRs above him pretty easily. I said that is due more likely to the CR system screwing up or the DM not playing the monsters well, becuase I'm not sure how a level 7 or 8 Warblade solo'ed 5 vampires. Seriously, the vampires can't touch the Warblade's AC? He also thinks that the Swordsage's 100 foot column of fire is overpowered and that the strike that Heals breaks campaigns.

We need a test to show that a caster makes fights even EASIER than a ToBer.

Perhaps an agreed-upon 3-man party that we will test by adding one ToB character and then by adding one caster and see who has an easier time?

[Epinephrine]

I get that casters can be powerful, but bear in mind that many campaigns take place at low level, and don't hit the huge power that casters can get at high level. Very little outshines things like Mountain Hammer/Punishing Stance on an already strong Warblade at low levels. A 3rd level character hitting for (as an example) 1d12+6+3d6 and ignoring DR is scary, and dispatches enemies pretty darn effectively.

The ToB is pretty front loaded - the classes have a lot of power at low levels.

Also, while I agree that casters can kick some major butt at higher levels, casters must cast to be effective. If the campaign isn't allowing stuff like nightsticks, metamagic beyond what you can cast, etc., you are probably not looking at perpetually buffed/ready spellcasters. Meaning they need actions to get themselves really rolling; this can be an edge for characters like the ToB guys, who can manage to get a lot out of their standard actions.

Now - at 18th level, I have trouble seeing any melee class keeping up with a caster, unless you start in weird situations. Like woken up in the night by being grappled. Even 11th level has a lot of spellcasting power, but if you limit metamagic to spells you can cast you can only do 6th level spells, or 2nd level quickened spells, and nothing persistent. Many DMs limit casters by houseruling things like that - they use variants like Shapeshift to tame druids, they eliminate DMM, etc. The houserules in play matter a lot.

[kamikasei]

I'd say you're probably better with discussion than testing.

Trying to test the classes against one another in play is inefficient: there are far more options than can be explored in a single session, and far too much variance and happenstance influencing things. Better to list his objections and point out, no, that's less powerful than a spell of that level, no, that doesn't work the way you think it does, yes, this ability is highly useful against certain types of opponents but just means you have to throw a mix of enemies at the party to provide a challenge...

Point out that casters still have more options, their options are still individually more powerful anyway, and that while they may have more limited per-day uses the party isn't likely to want to keep adventuring after the casters are out of spells anyway (and that a marathon session which would actually exhaust the casters is pretty atypical anyway). Explore how many of the scenarios he constructs where ToBers dominate are contrived or edge cases.

[lsfreak]

A third level, old Gray Elf wizard with Spell Focus (conj) has a DC18 or 19 Glitterdust and Web. Have fun making that at level 3. With flaws, you can have Metamagic School Focus and Sculpt Spell at level 3, therefore enabling you to hit at least 4 enemies no matter how spread out they are.
EDIT: And with Focused Specialist, you can do it 4-5 times a day, depending on whether you start with 16 or 18Int.

[Nero24200]

It would depend on the Playing Style as well. TOB is meant to balance against high powered casters, but contrary to popular internet forum beleif, not everyone does, or even wishes to play these high powered casters.

If the group the DM plays with isn't that interested in being number one and outshinning everyone else, then casters won't seem so powerful, and likewise TOB will seem more powerful.

I don't allow TOB in my campaigns because I beleive it's too powerful, but then again, I was also able to make a straight fighter at level 17 and outshine the rest of the party easily, so you can see how well my group handles optimization.

[Epinephrine]

A third level, old Gray Elf wizard with Spell Focus (conj) has a DC18 or 19 Glitterdust and Web. Have fun making that at level 3. With flaws, you can have Metamagic School Focus and Sculpt Spell at level 3, therefore enabling you to hit at least 4 enemies no matter how spread out they are.
EDIT: And with Focused Specialist, you can do it 4-5 times a day, depending on whether you start with 16 or 18Int.

Right, and he still has to be able to cast them. If he loses initiative and gets hit he'll likely die. And if he survives the melee damage (unlikely if it's a reasonably strong meleer with a 2 handed weapon, using a maneuver and Punishing Stance), he's still got to cast defensively or something.

It's a lot of rock-paper-scissors. Yes, the wizard could stop the warblade. Yes, the warblade could pound the wizard. It depends on how it plays out.

Assuming no prep work, and starting within range of each other, a melee character at low level can do a good job on a caster. If the caster goes first, he has a good chance of disabling the melee. If the melee goes first, he has a good chance of disabling the caster. Taking a specialist wizard is fine, cute and all that.

You want a specific counter for the grey-elf?

Spoiler

Show

Warblade or swordsage, using Diamond Mind maneuvers. Among your choices, pick Moment of Perfect Mind and Action Before Thought. Starting Con of 16 or so? 6 ranks of Concentration, +3 Con bonus, and skill focus (concentration) for +3; maybe even a concentration boosting item for +2. That's a solid +14 concentration check that he can use in place of his Reflex or Will saves, making a DC 18 on a 4. You want to get into flaws, traits, racial bonuses, etc.? Make him a Desert Orc, for more Con, take the Focused Trait. Yay, another +2 to the check!

Give him a Spiked Chain or something, so he can attack from 5' and threaten at 10. That way the wizard can't 5' step. Or just a polearm and spiked armour.

Two can play the "make up a scenario" game. If the warblade goes first he runs up and splatters wizard. If the wizard goes first he casts, 85%-95% of the time the warblade makes his save, and comes and kills the wizard on his turn.

There's little point to the "I can make up a scenario" approach. Hence hiding all this in a spoiler tag, as no doubt otherwise someone will respond with how this Diamond Mind guy could be beaten. Wizards are vulnerable to many things - being grappled, readied actions to attack when they cast, damage on their tiny little d4 hit dice... just like melee guys have their weaknesses.

[742]

well my group is a bit wonky and when it comes to wizard cheese im pretty rusty, but:

remember 24 hour and 1 hour per level duration buffs, metamagic rods of extend, and casting them 8 hours before rest(for the level 18 encounter anyway, note that this does not work for spontaneous casters). you wake up buffed and with full attack/short duration buff spells, and overland flight+superior resistance+unicorn/heart/blood/horn+heart of air/earth/water/fire+protection from fire+water breathing ect. ect. remember for short duration displacement blur mirror image, that sort of thing, if their strikes cant hit they dont do damage. take death ward, some fire protection spells(if your DM thinks the fire stuff is OP then they are sure to be heavy on it)body ward(complete champion for ability damage that you are sure to take from stone dragon/shadow hand/maybe tiger claw attacks) and will based stuns/save-or-suck/save-or-die spells. also mobility, you have the wizards/bards/clerics with travel domain you have the advantage. make sure to use fly(or air walk) invisibility and see invisibility (make sure to permenancy that and darkvision) on everyone in the caster group, make sure you have at least 1 person with a high spot (maybe cleric druid wizard, and either a telepath a kineticist, a cheesey gish or another wizard, maybe an assassin, theyre spellcasters, core even!) make sure to (over)use all sorts of teleports from benign transposition, to malign transposition dimension door and teleport. remember to dimensional anchor the swordsage(s) and if you can do that, then stay in the air, throw up a wind wall below you to prevent annoying bowfire, and keep your fire immunity up, theres no way they can prevent you from spamming sword of deception and save-or-suck spells until they die. need to rest? have magnificent mansion or rope trick ready, just to piss him off.

ask the DM if there will be noncombat challenges such as traps and pits to cross, to check if a skillmonkey is required, and what type of terrain its in (if its a blank arena then maybe druid isnt the best choice, if its a wooded area then maybe it is) so you know whether you can have a full out cheese fightery cleric or whether you need something more of the kobold variety.

and absolutely yes, spells like glitterdust or web (and psionic blast) that make you suck (especially glitterdust, 50% miss chance on a will save) are exceptionally strong against fighters. (improved) invisibility isnt a bad choice either, since it gives miss chance.

i apologize for my wall of text and rambling incoherence, if its too much PM me and ill fix it later.

[lsfreak]

@Epinephrine:
Of course there's a counter, that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about whether, PC-versus-Random Monster X, casters or ToB are more powerful. Not fighting each other. I provided an example to show that even at low levels, a wizard can be similarly "game-breaking" to ToB; the wizard effectively takes out an entire encounter 4 times a day, without even touching his 1st-level spells. And while the wizard might be caught unawares, he has at least +4 initiative, likely +5, and if he doesn't advance his age to boost his DC's that extra point, could easily be +7.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Ghostform. Cast ghostform, and laugh at all the pathetic high level monsters and traps that can't hurt you.

Arcane Thesis (Enervation), Signature Spell (enervation). Cast Empowered (+0), Stilled (-1) Silent (-1), Quickened (+2), Maximized (+1), Repeat (+1), Twinned (+2) Chained (+1) Sanctumed (-2), Fell Drain (+0) Enervation as a 9th level spell slot. It does 14 negative levels two turns in a row. Eat that!

@Epinephrine: Your example doesnt work very well. You have made a character focused on beating his third level character. When this discussion is about high levels. And since when does anyone focus on defense anyway?

[Frosty]

We don't alliow Arcane Thesis to reduce a metamagic below 0. So a +0 meta would still only offer +0, not -1.

As for Glitterdust, it's great but my DM thinks that anyone who needs a party to help kill isn't broken. My Beguiler in his last campaign was MVP for most of the time, disabling tons of enemies, yet he found nothing that needed nerfing. Yet give a Warblade the ability to make 2 full-round attacks, and suddenly the world ends.

[lsfreak]

Well, if your DM doesn't consider turning entire counters into what is effectively abnormally-sized sloths with lots of hit points overpowered, he's got problems I suppose one option is to Dominate every single humanoid that looks to be challenging, then using Programmed Amnesia or the like once you can.

Barring that, I guess it's down to metamagic cheese. Arcane Thesis + Metamagic School Focus, Empowered Maximized Split Ray Twinned Enervation does 20 negative levels at level 13 (7th level slot), 3 times a day and without dropping metamagic costs below +0. With Versatile Spellcaster , you can pull an Empowered Maximized Twinned Energy Admixtured Split Ray Orb of Fire at 14th level for ~800 damage 3 times a day, or at 15th level as a wizard (though I suppose Orbs technically aren't rays, they do all the same things, so depending on the DM only 400). Empowered and/or Maximized Heightened Cloudkill for 5+Con damage every round, combined with Freezing Fog or a couple Walls of Stone/Iron or a Shadow Evocation'd Forcecage to stop anyone from escaping.

[Eldariel]

We don't alliow Arcane Thesis to reduce a metamagic below 0. So a +0 meta would still only offer +0, not -1.

As for Glitterdust, it's great but my DM thinks that anyone who needs a party to help kill isn't broken. My Beguiler in his last campaign was MVP for most of the time, disabling tons of enemies, yet he found nothing that needed nerfing. Yet give a Warblade the ability to make 2 full-round attacks, and suddenly the world ends.

Maybe you should attempt to affect the DM's perspective on such matters then. He needs to realize that even if opponent isn't dead, as long as he isn't much of a threat, he's effectively "out".

Of course, Druids and Clerics can easily dish out more damage than melee, so showcase those two. Wizards and Sorcerers are much better at making opponents useless outside few specific builds. Meh, metamagic reducers + metamagic is still the way to go with offensive spellcasting.

[JoshuaZ]

We don't alliow Arcane Thesis to reduce a metamagic below 0. So a +0 meta would still only offer +0, not -1.

As for Glitterdust, it's great but my DM thinks that anyone who needs a party to help kill isn't broken. My Beguiler in his last campaign was MVP for most of the time, disabling tons of enemies, yet he found nothing that needed nerfing. Yet give a Warblade the ability to make 2 full-round attacks, and suddenly the world ends.

Once they've been effectively glitterdusted you don't need allies to help much. At that point, you can effectively potshot them with a bow. Or if you have a reserve feat, use that.

[Epinephrine]

@Epinephrine:
Of course there's a counter, that's not what this thread is about.

Sorry, your "try making that at third level" had me thinking that it was some sort of PvP comparison thing.

My earlier point was simply that ToB is very strong at low levels. Anyone whose exposure to it is primarily through low level (and thus, typical) campaigns will no doubt find it overpowered. Many campaigns start at low level, and end before casters hit their stride; if this is your DMs experience, I totally understand.

At 11th level casters are powerful and flexible, but don't have the resources to handle everything. At 18th I suspect that they exceed the power of ToB by a large margin.

[The_Snark]

Once they've been effectively glitterdusted you don't need allies to help much. At that point, you can effectively potshot them with a bow. Or if you have a reserve feat, use that.

It has a 1 round/level duration. At low levels, it doesn't last long enough to consistently kill anything; at high levels, any enemy that can be killed by a beguiler or wizard with a bow wasn't much of a threat anyway.

[CheshireCatAW]

Might I interject with a suggestion?

Ask your DM to go with assumed numbers for die rolls. For instance, the first time you test a concept, make every roll that would occur that scenario a 10, the second time a 15, the third time a 5, etc. This takes a huge amount of randomness out of the equation, that way, due to lucky/unlucky rolls, one build or another wont be seen as overpowered/underpowered unfairly.

Additionally, this approach will showcase that a wizard can be extremely dangerous even if he misses!

I think that by making the sides even like this, you'll get a balanced report back. And that report, I imagine, will show very convincingly the point which you are trying to prove.

Regards

[Artanis]

As for Glitterdust, it's great but my DM thinks that anyone who needs a party to help kill isn't broken. My Beguiler in his last campaign was MVP for most of the time, disabling tons of enemies, yet he found nothing that needed nerfing. Yet give a Warblade the ability to make 2 full-round attacks, and suddenly the world ends.

If this is the case, then I suspect that even a ridiculously broken batman caster won't do a d*** thing to change your DM's mind. Probably the only way to "win" this sort of contest is to out-Warblade the Warblade. What's more, you'll have to do it under the constraints that douglas outlined above.

Of course, one big problem I notice is that even if you do win, you won't be proving that ToB is non-broken, you'll just be proving that casters are broken. You're liable to wind up with ToB and whatever casters and/or tricks you use on the banned list.

About the best solution I can think of is to try to get the DM to let you use ToB for a few sessions as a "trial run", and go easy on the badassery to try to show him that it's possible play a ToB character without destroying the campaign.

[Myrmex]

Right, and he still has to be able to cast them. If he loses initiative and gets hit he'll likely die. And if he survives the melee damage (unlikely if it's a reasonably strong meleer with a 2 handed weapon, using a maneuver and Punishing Stance), he's still got to cast defensively or something.

It's a lot of rock-paper-scissors. Yes, the wizard could stop the warblade. Yes, the warblade could pound the wizard. It depends on how it plays out.

Assuming no prep work, and starting within range of each other, a melee character at low level can do a good job on a caster. If the caster goes first, he has a good chance of disabling the melee. If the melee goes first, he has a good chance of disabling the caster. Taking a specialist wizard is fine, cute and all that.

You want a specific counter for the grey-elf?

Spoiler

Show

Warblade or swordsage, using Diamond Mind maneuvers. Among your choices, pick Moment of Perfect Mind and Action Before Thought. Starting Con of 16 or so? 6 ranks of Concentration, +3 Con bonus, and skill focus (concentration) for +3; maybe even a concentration boosting item for +2. That's a solid +14 concentration check that he can use in place of his Reflex or Will saves, making a DC 18 on a 4. You want to get into flaws, traits, racial bonuses, etc.? Make him a Desert Orc, for more Con, take the Focused Trait. Yay, another +2 to the check!

Give him a Spiked Chain or something, so he can attack from 5' and threaten at 10. That way the wizard can't 5' step. Or just a polearm and spiked armour.

Two can play the "make up a scenario" game. If the warblade goes first he runs up and splatters wizard. If the wizard goes first he casts, 85%-95% of the time the warblade makes his save, and comes and kills the wizard on his turn.

There's little point to the "I can make up a scenario" approach. Hence hiding all this in a spoiler tag, as no doubt otherwise someone will respond with how this Diamond Mind guy could be beaten. Wizards are vulnerable to many things - being grappled, readied actions to attack when they cast, damage on their tiny little d4 hit dice... just like melee guys have their weaknesses.

That's all very nice, but if you had bothered to read the OP, this isn't about PVP.

[TheThan]

We don't alliow Arcane Thesis to reduce a metamagic below 0. So a +0 meta would still only offer +0, not -1.

As for Glitterdust, it's great but my DM thinks that anyone who needs a party to help kill isn't broken. My Beguiler in his last campaign was MVP for most of the time, disabling tons of enemies, yet he found nothing that needed nerfing. Yet give a Warblade the ability to make 2 full-round attacks, and suddenly the world ends.

Wait, if your DM is looking at shear damage output, then he’s missing the point behind what makes casters “broken”. Knowing this, it seems to me that your best bet is to simply show him how wizards can circumvent encounters, without defeating them. Such as gaseous form allowing someone to pass through an unmovable gate, or fly getting the heroes across a platform maze.

Spells like fly, Teleport, web, suggestion, gaseous form, charm monster, geas, polymorph etc.

[Frosty]

Wait, if your DM is looking at shear damage output, then he’s missing the point behind what makes casters “broken”. Knowing this, it seems to me that your best bet is to simply show him how wizards can circumvent encounters, without defeating them. Such as gaseous form allowing someone to pass through an unmovable gate, or fly getting the heroes across a platform maze.

Spells like fly, Teleport, web, suggestion, gaseous form, charm monster, geas, polymorph etc.

The DM has no problem with those. He expects wizards to do that (although he believes that wizards needing scrolls to learn spells is a significant downside). He thinks that ToBers are...TOO versatile *shudder* within the role of physical combatants. He's all like, "They can damage AND a status effect or damage AND healing? And look at Greater Insightful strike. now you can dump all of your money in armor and pump AC and still do horrible amount of damage oh no so unbalancing!"

[Roderick_BR]

Right, and he still has to be able to cast them. If he loses initiative and gets hit he'll likely die. And if he survives the melee damage (unlikely if it's a reasonably strong meleer with a 2 handed weapon, using a maneuver and Punishing Stance), he's still got to cast defensively or something.

A core fighter with only power attack and improved initiative, and (deity forbid) weapon focus/specialization, could kill that same wizard in one round. Should core fighters be banned?

[Tar Palantir]

If you just want damage output, make a sorcerer with Arcane Thesis (Fireball or Delayed Blast Fireball), Energy Admixture, Versatile Spellcaster, Searing Spell, Practical Metamagic (Admixture), etc. to sling around 20-30d6 Fireballs that still do half damage to things immune to fire, at no cost. I had a six month campaign that consisted almost entirely of the following.

Me: You enter the room.
Player: SUPER FIREBALL!
Me: Everything dies.

Not even close to the brokenness casters can achieve, but it might offend your DM enough to make him see the terrible power of spellcasters.

[Nohwl]

I take it he's running a formal test for you, with your party having casters in place of his party's ToB characters?

I can think of two different approaches you might try to go for here:
1) Go overkill and demonstrate just how thoroughly broken casters can be.
2) Make powerful but not overtly broken characters that don't rely too much on any one thing.

overkill is fun, you should go for it.

[FinalJustice]

Ubercharge the crap out of him.

Seriously. Picture. He feels ToB is overpowered because it's 'too versatile for a melee'. Fine, he's the DM and he thinks melees should not be 'too versatile'. Hence, make non versatile melees, overspecialize. Roll up something that can obliterate CR appropriate monsters in 1 round. Make sure you have contingencies for main weaknesses (a way to teleport, fly, some healing) through items. Maybe seeing a damn ubercharger hack through his encounters and having to work around it changes his perspective on how melees should be.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Batman Wizard.

Sudden Maximize Time Stop + 5x Delayed Blast Fireballs. Time starts, blows up all ToBers (except maybe the Swordsage), then Forcecage + DimLock + Cloudkill the Swordsage. Use DimDoor and Overland Flight to keep out of reach.

A single level 20 Wizard, CORE, beats a whole party of ToB. Have a nice day.