Punch Out The Wizard!

[lesser_minion]

I doubt this would really get to three quarters of a spell list being wiped out.

It does have the useful effect of removing Shadow Contingency and Craft Contingent Spell is considered too broken to use. So if the wizard goes for the standard ban-evocation and enchantment approach, then this should actually become slightly easier (because the wizard will not simply vanish when in trouble).

I think Contingencies should probably carry at least some risk of failure in any event.

[Enochi]

Hmm okay here is what I think. If he is shapeshifting into crazy forms give the PCs an item that LOCKS him in the form then an antimagic field. Then the pcs arent fighting a crazy ass wizard but whatever monster the wizard turned into. However the PCs with have to manage to 1. Trick the wizard into shapeshifting or sneak up on him while he is sleeping in Dire Tortise form. 2. Keep him in range of the Lockdown and Antimagic field and 3. be able to beat the cr whatever monster he turned into.

[grautry]

The rules stipulate that genesis is not available to the wizard.

The rules also stipulate that astral projection is not available to the wizard.

Ah well, that's what I get for reading the beginning of the thread in the morning and replying in the afternoon.

Snapping the cord from Astral Projection kills no matter what - it's meant to be a balancing factor to the spell. You need to be able to hit incorporeal things, and also ignore the hardness of the object, but a well-built Horizon Walker could do pretty well, I guess.

Ah yeah. I was re-checking SRD today when I was posting and I must've misread it.

[Telonius]

So perhaps the homebrew you're looking for could be something like a homebrew prestige class, we'll call it "The X Factor", with the fluff that they're a step removed from reality, and as a result, their actions don't show up on divinations or trigger contingencies. Have everyone dip into that, and have one party member take it all five levels, which gives them disjunction and dimensional anchor as spell-like abilities, and 1/day the ability to always go first which, quote, "functions as the dire tortoise ability but totally beats it forever lolololol", endquote.

Something crazy like that.

Not a half-bad idea. Another crazy idea to go along with that ... give it a pool of points similar to the Knight's Challenges. For 6, you can bypass contingencies for x rounds. For 5, go first, no exceptions pre-Epic. For 4, act as though you have an AMF emanating from (but not affecting) you. For 3, Dimensional Anchor, radius x feet. And so on. The catch: you lose one point each round you fail to take offensive action (advancing towards it counts) against the arcane caster. No penalty if there's no spellcaster to attack.

Seems like "Mage Hunter," "Mage Slayer," or "Wizardbane" would be a good name for it.

[The Glyphstone]

Not a half-bad idea. Another crazy idea to go along with that ... give it a pool of points similar to the Knight's Challenges. For 6, you can bypass contingencies for x rounds. For 5, go first, no exceptions pre-Epic. For 4, act as though you have an AMF emanating from (but not affecting) you. For 3, Dimensional Anchor, radius x feet. And so on. The catch: you lose one point each round you fail to take offensive action (advancing towards it counts) against the arcane caster. No penalty if there's no spellcaster to attack.

Seems like "Mage Hunter," "Mage Slayer," or "Wizardbane" would be a good name for it.

Definitely Wizardbane...or more accurately, Wizard'Bane'. It's very appropriate considering we're trying to 'break' the wizard's dominance.

Now that's a scary thought, actually. Bane with magic?

[afroakuma]

So...assuming that the wizard can't make use of his most obvious and powerful abilities, and that 3/4 of his spell list is either nerfed or gone, and that he somehow makes a number of mistakes that even a neophyte wizard would be too smart to make...

I don't understand why you seem to be taking such a negative view. The wizard's certainly not losing 3/4 of the spell list; only certain specific planar effects:

Spoiler

Show

shadow walk, shadow evocation, shadow conjuration, shades, ethereal jaunt, planar binding, astral projection, off the top of my head.

Teleport and other such effects that don't actually involve the plane in question will remain intact, as will summon monster spells. Gate was always broken, and from a flavor perspective needs the nerf. This still leaves time stop, forcecage, shapechange and a whole host of wizard favorites. So you're dipping well into hyberbole here.

And then only if they're insanely well-equipped, prepared for nigh any eventuality, and get really, REALLY lucky.

You're clearly ignoring the point of this exercise. It's not to prove wizard superiority; we got that memo. It's to say, given wizard superiority, what makes him superior and what would need to be possible to level the playing field. But you don't seem to want to contribute.

Somehow I don't think that this setup really makes for a plausible setup for the challenge.

Again; you're missing the point. I'm not challenging the existing rules, or the conventional uber-Batman. I'm asking that, with flavor-dictated, reasonable restrictions to some effects, what expansions to the rules would bring a viable challenge to a 20th level wizard.

But, as before: you seem intent on not participating.

[Lycanthromancer]

It's just that high-level wizards are so incredibly borked that no amount of beefing up (short of across-the-board bans and nerfs or being a Big Five Caster) can really compare.

For instance; sure, the wizard can have only a single gate active at a time. And sure, RAW he can only control up to 2x his CL in HD. But that doesn't stop Mr. Lvl 20 Wizard from using a single gate to pull in six hecatonchieres, or twelve atroposes, or fifteen chichimecs, and then teleporting out.

Or casting a Maximized time stop on his turn (using a metamagic rod, and maybe Extend Spell with metamagic reducers) and setting himself up with a wall of iron (to stand on); stone shape (as a dome) and prismatic sphere just outside the stone shape, to prevent entry into the sphere and to prevent damage to the dome, as well as a dimensional anchor spell on the stone shaped dome to prevent teleportation in.

A shapechange (one for him and one for his familiar) to turn the two of them incorporeal, and to grant a huge number of supernatural abilities; and two ring-gates (one to keep inside the dome, and one with his familiar for him to cast out of).

A Quickened limited wish or shadow evocation to get whatever extra contingencies he might decide that he needs at the spur of the moment (see: contingent teleport).

A few well-thought-out shrink item'd items that will act as both offense (via telekinesis + thousands of pounds of boulders, or several hundreds of gallons of shrunken cloth-of-black-lotus-extract, amongst other things), and defense (the aforementioned shrunken dome, and numerous other clever ruses).

A pre-prepared magnificent mansion and/or rope trick for an easy escape.

Another gate spell set to open into some incredibly inhospitable plane (such as the paraelemental plane of lava, or the far realm) to flood the room (while the wizard, of course, is safely tucked away inside his prismatic shell, or maybe just a resilient sphere).

A reverse gravity to hurl you into an open gate, into a prismatic sphere, or some other hazard.

An army of undead, golems, elementals, demons, devils, and other permanent slaves, bound to him via any number of means (see: create (greater) undead, lesser/greater planar ally, dominate monster, etc etc etc).

As well as the spellcasting gumption of every other arcane and divine class out there, given that he has access to all of their spell-lists (via any number of spells, including polymorph, shapechange, polymorph any object, - since spellcasting is officially an Ex attack - and summons).

Virtually every status effect in the game; negative levels, ability penalties, ability damage, ability drain, disjunctions, fear effects (shaken, not stirred), exhaustion effects, and myriad others.

Battlefield-control which can simply shut down anyone he feels like; solid fog + dimension lock, for instance.

Skill-boosters which boost his abilities way beyond what anyone else can do (see: moment of prescience); and that's assuming he wants to make the check at all, and doesn't bypass it completely.

He can target any and all defenses you have; at least one of which will likely be your weak spot (and with his insane Knowledge skills, he'll most likely know which defense is your weakness). Many of his abilities have no defense, even for things "immune" to magic.

Note that the aforementioned spell onslaught has hardly put a dent into the number of spell-slots he has available, since he can use rods of absorption as both defensive tools (to absorb incoming spells) and to burn instead of spell-slots. He also has pearls of power, Mordenkainen's lubrication (the better to screw you with, my dear), rings of spell storing, rings of wizardry, and all sorts of other ways to save his slots. All of which he's fully capable of crafting, if he feels like it.

And he can change his abilities every single day, to suit his whims. You will never, ever know exactly what he has prepped for any given day, because his spellbooks should have hundreds (if not thousands) of spells filling them to the brim, and he can access any spell that it's possible to research, given just a bit of time. And good luck reaching his spellbooks, given that he can place them permanently out of anyone's reach but his own.

...and that's just from straight core; splatbooks make this much, MUCH worse.

I don't think you quite realize just how insane casters really are at high levels. THAT is why I'm being 'negative'. It's like picking up a few grenades and attempting to assassinate GOD. It just doesn't work.

[Enochi]

I agree wholeheartedly.

Things the party will have to acomplish it.
1. Kill all the monsters the wizard chucks at you
2. Survive all his damage spell
3. Get past all his spell defences
4. Keep him from escaping

Best thing I can think off

Have an archer a mile outside his tower shooting arrows and wait until the PC rolls 3 20s in a row. Instant dead wizard. Should take about 8000 shots before it works. Saying full bab with rapid shot is 6 shots a second. Should take roughly 2 hours 15min ingame time. Longer in real life time.

[Lycanthromancer]

I agree wholeheartedly.

Things the party will have to acomplish it.
1. Kill all the monsters the wizard chucks at you
2. Survive all his damage spell
3. Get past all his spell defences
4. Keep him from escaping

Best thing I can think off

Have an archer a mile outside his tower shooting arrows and wait until the PC rolls 3 20s in a row. Instant dead wizard. Should take about 8000 shots before it works. Saying full bab with rapid shot is 6 shots a second. Should take roughly 2 hours 15min ingame time. Longer in real life time.

...I don't think this works, exactly. The first couple of arrows will either see immediate retaliation, or a single mid-to-low level spell that makes him immune from your arrow attacks (or even moving to a room with no windows). After which he'll simply ignore you.

You have to be prepared for EVERYTHING he could possibly throw at you, and you have to do so before he knows you exist; else you WILL lose.

All it takes is one scry-n-die, after all; especially if he gets forewarning before you do.

[lesser_minion]

It's just that high-level wizards are so incredibly borked that no amount of beefing up (short of across-the-board bans and nerfs or being a Big Five Caster) can really compare.

<snip>

OK, to parse that into something afroakuma can use:

• You need a way of yanking incorporeal characters out of solid objects, to prevent a wizard hiding in one then using his defensive spells to make it indestructible and his other tricks to avoid losing LoE.
• Maybe something that assumes control of an active spell effect (force the wizard to shapechange into a creature with negligible stats), or a couple of buff-cancelling feats
• Maybe a way of getting into spaces blocked off by both physical barriers and magical wards. Could be OP though.
• A way of getting into extra-dimensional spaces created by others.
• A way of levitating or flying, which was necessary all along anyway
• Possibly a way of changing the defence they use against a particular effect. Letting characters avoid Death effects with Will saves, for example.
• A way of forcing saves against certain no-save effects (e.g. Energy Drain) would be nice.
  

Neither the Shrink Item cheese nor the PaO cheese you mentioned can be accepted - what happens when Shrink Item ends or is suppressed is unclear, so you cannot assume it to be to your benefit. It's a standard action to expand the item (in the same way as any other deliberate utterance of a command word), so throwing it at something is also out without DM fiat.

As for PaO cheese: you cannot PaO anything into a member of any class but Commoner. You could certainly abuse all those mighty (6.023e23)^th level spell slots that a commoner gains at 1st level... or not.

Shadow spells and Gates are outside the scope of the exercise, and there is no way to gain multiple contingencies apart from Craft Contingent Spell, which is why even the most rabid of the "IF U BAN THIS U SUK AND UR H0US3RUL1NG" crowd don't use it.

If that's all you can come up with in Core, then Core + Homebrew has a pretty fair shot at being balanced.

[Lycanthromancer]

Those were just a few examples of what a core-only wizard can do.

Just a fraction. I can come up with tons more, if you like. And they don't even really rely on a specific build; just RAW access to spells that wizards are supposed to get anyway.

Also, there are beasties that still cast as Xth-level clerics/wizards/sorcerers, even if they have commoner levels. And you get access to those spells. Just look at dragons. And outsiders. And illithids. And all the Su abilities you get access to (which mimic some pretty powerful spells).

[Thorcrest]

Everyone here seems to be focused on what the wizard can do, what they should be focused on iswhat they can't do. Now, thats just thinking outside the box, the Pc's just need to find a way to learn those weaknesses and take advantage of them, I don't want any more of this the wizard can just go back and prepare for what you are prepared for and counter you, the rules of this engagement state that the wizard already knows what you are doing, NO MATTER WHAT, therefore, the wizard will basically know what to do to stop you. Oh buffed by magic items, Anti magic field(suprise round) shape change (into something that PCs are not prepared for) kill the PCs. Go to beat the wizard up in combat, tons of buffs, PCs dead. Not trying to be negative or anything, but the PC's are just screwed unless they can find a way to overcome his mind reading thingy (yeah its not technical). And don't say I cast Mind Blank or I have no mind I am Insane type things cause wizard dispels and scries respectively. Only way to remove this from him would be (that I can think of) to create an immunity to magic magic item, yup a magic item that makes you immune to magic. If the Rules state that this is not available then there is NO way to win as the wizard will always be able to counter you, people here keep assuming they can reach the wizard, but upon entering the tower, if he knows what you are weak against, he can just send countless waves of things that will eventually destroy you, or create an illusion world that appears real to the Pcs where they kill a wizard (not the wizard) and celebrate never realizing they have been gassed and put in his dungeon etc. Therefore people need to come up with a way to remove his mind reading before anything or else they die room one, never reaching the wizard, no matter what you do no matter how prepared you are so everyone should concentrate on one thing until afro (sorry don't know your full username) says omeone has found a suitable solution. But assuming my Immune to Magic thing Works, the wizard could just leave before your in range to reach you and then just collapse the dungeon, (this is plausible to know you are there as he probably has a conventional alarm system) therefore you die again, so the players have to find a way to know where the wizard is exactly and teleport there for a suprise round where they can beat him down as he hopefully won't have his buffs up for a non-exisitant threat, though the players will have to have high innitiative to ensure going first to dimensional anchor on the wizard. Just somehing to think about and my possible solution.

So REMEMBER: STEP 1: Disable his all knowingness
STEP 2: Come up with a plan, that's your, the hypothetical PCs, job

[afroakuma]

It's just that high-level wizards are so incredibly borked that no amount of beefing up (short of across-the-board bans and nerfs or being a Big Five Caster) can really compare.

For instance; sure, the wizard can have only a single gate active at a time. And sure, RAW he can only control up to 2x his CL in HD. But that doesn't stop Mr. Lvl 20 Wizard from using a single gate to pull in six hecatonchieres, or twelve atroposes, or fifteen chichimecs, and then teleporting out.

Gate is a special case, as indicated before, because gate is being changed. No wizard will be able to summon any of those things without resorting to horrific Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft checks, plus the potential consequences of being sucked back through or suffering temporary spell loss.

Or casting a Maximized time stop on his turn (using a metamagic rod, and maybe Extend Spell with metamagic reducers) and setting himself up with a wall of iron (to stand on); stone shape (as a dome) and prismatic sphere just outside the stone shape, to prevent entry into the sphere and to prevent damage to the dome, as well as a dimensional anchor spell on the stone shaped dome to prevent teleportation in.

Alright, so two options: ignore his time stop or walk through his prismatic sphere and break his stone shape. Hello, non-teleporting wizard!

A shapechange

That one I shan't contest.

and two ring-gates (one to keep inside the dome, and one with his familiar for him to cast out of).

Shouldn't ring gates not function under dimensional anchor, being based on gate? Not too big a point, though, regardless.

A Quickened limited wish or shadow evocation to get whatever extra contingencies he might decide that he needs at the spur of the moment (see: contingent teleport).

Shadow evocation does not exist. Contingency can be bypassed.

A few well-thought-out shrink item'd items that will act as both offense (via telekinesis + thousands of pounds of boulders, or several hundreds of gallons of shrunken cloth-of-black-lotus-extract, amongst other things), and defense (the aforementioned shrunken dome, and numerous other clever ruses).

All very clever tactics.

A pre-prepared magnificent mansion and/or rope trick for an easy escape.

Item to bypass both.

Another gate spell set to open into some incredibly inhospitable plane (such as the paraelemental plane of lava, or the far realm) to flood the room (while the wizard, of course, is safely tucked away inside his prismatic shell, or maybe just a resilient sphere).

Neither plane exists in the cosmology; attempting to open a gate to either would be more risk than it's worth.

A reverse gravity to hurl you into an open gate, into a prismatic sphere, or some other hazard.

Ignore the spell.

An army of undead, golems, elementals, demons, devils, and other permanent slaves, bound to him via any number of means (see: create (greater) undead, lesser/greater planar ally, dominate monster, etc etc etc).

Again, what one would expect from an intelligent wizard.

As well as the spellcasting gumption of every other arcane and divine class out there, given that he has access to all of their spell-lists (via any number of spells, including polymorph, shapechange, polymorph any object, - since spellcasting is officially an Ex attack - and summons).

Where was this ruling made? I'd very much like to see it.

Virtually every status effect in the game; negative levels, ability penalties, ability damage, ability drain, disjunctions, fear effects (shaken, not stirred), exhaustion effects, and myriad others.

All of which rely on the same function. Ignored.

Battlefield-control which can simply shut down anyone he feels like; solid fog + dimension lock, for instance.

All of which rely on the same function. Ignored.

He can target any and all defenses you have; at least one of which will likely be your weak spot (and with his insane Knowledge skills, he'll most likely know which defense is your weakness). Many of his abilities have no defense, even for things "immune" to magic.

Yes, but once again, they all rely on the same function. Ignored.

Note that the aforementioned spell onslaught has hardly put a dent into the number of spell-slots he has available, since he can use rods of absorption as both defensive tools (to absorb incoming spells) and to burn instead of spell-slots. He also has pearls of power, Mordenkainen's lubrication (the better to screw you with, my dear), rings of spell storing, rings of wizardry, and all sorts of other ways to save his slots. All of which he's fully capable of crafting, if he feels like it.

Alright, so the wizard has a boatload of toys that all enrich the same function. Ignored.

And he can change his abilities every single day, to suit his whims. You will never, ever know exactly what he has prepped for any given day, because his spellbooks should have hundreds (if not thousands) of spells filling them to the brim, and he can access any spell that it's possible to research, given just a bit of time. And good luck reaching his spellbooks, given that he can place them permanently out of anyone's reach but his own.

I don't disagree, but the only spells that matter in battle are those in the her and now.

I don't think you quite realize just how insane casters really are at high levels. THAT is why I'm being 'negative'. It's like picking up a few grenades and attempting to assassinate GOD. It just doesn't work.

I am well aware of exactly how insane casters are at high levels, and I'm starting to find it more than a bit insulting that you give me so little credit.

[lesser_minion]

Those were just a few examples of what a core-only wizard can do.

Just a fraction. I can come up with tons more, if you like. And they don't even really rely on a specific build; just RAW access to spells that wizards are supposed to get anyway.

Also, there are beasties that still cast as Xth-level clerics/wizards/sorcerers, even if they have commoner levels. And you get access to those spells. Just look at dragons. And outsiders. And illithids. And all the Su abilities you get access to (which mimic some pretty powerful spells).

I'm fully aware that you get the supernatural abilities of creatures into which you shapechange, but I would like to see how you were able to infer that you get their spellcasting. You don't.

Spells do not have a tag because they don't need one, because they work in the same way as they would for a member of a character class. Are those extraordinary abilities?

Note that I'm neglecting the really badly-written entries where possesion of a vorpal sword is considered a supernatural ability (which was also really inconsistent, because magic items are not listed as having one of the three standard types either).

Also, the abilities you mentioned before can all be countered with homebrew abilities and character options. Do you have any combos which are not dependent on the same few spells?

[afroakuma]

Currently, an 18th level monk in the upcoming campaign setting can rather cheerfully murder a wizard who goes for time stop. Non-illusory defenses and active battle strategy instead of superiority complex/uber-spell reliance combo will be required.

[lesser_minion]

An interesting technique could be to take a leaf out of the human immune system's book and make characters more resistant to spells the more times those spells are used against them in an encounter.

A feat, maybe?

[afroakuma]

Ehh, I don't think anyone would have fun tracking it. Nor would it be too practical.

Right now, Fifth Vasrah lets a monk get away with wizard-murder, but few others will be able to take it. There's a magic item that emulates it somewhat, but a related ability might be better.

[Tehnar]

Maybe what you need is a continuation of the Mage Slayer line of feats:

- one that allows you to send non material plane creatures whence they came from
- one that deals with polymorphed creatures, such as turning them into their true form and keeping them there for a bit
- one that penetrates magical spell effects, negating them or dispelling them (such as walls of force, prismatic spheres, walls of fire, etc).

Maybe add other features, like allowing classes with trapfinding to use disable device checks to dispel/supress/bypass spells affecting a area, and not just traps.

Remove, edit, or clearly define the extent of effect of some troublesome spells.
Remove some items. I personally don't allow metamagic rods in my games.

[afroakuma]

Maybe what you need is a continuation of the Mage Slayer line of feats:

- one that allows you to send non material plane creatures whence they came from

In this campaign setting, that would be fairly futile most of the time.

- one that deals with polymorphed creatures, such as turning them into their true form and keeping them there for a bit

Now that would be useful... and more of a ritual than a straight-up feat.

- one that penetrates magical spell effects, negating them or dispelling them (such as walls of force, prismatic spheres, walls of fire, etc).

You've seen Fifth Vasrah; you know what it can do.

Remove, edit, or clearly define the extent of effect of some troublesome spells.
Remove some items. I personally don't allow metamagic rods in my games.

I have to do both due to the nature of the setting.

[Lycanthromancer]

Gate is a special case, as indicated before, because gate is being changed. No wizard will be able to summon any of those things without resorting to horrific Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft checks, plus the potential consequences of being sucked back through or suffering temporary spell loss.

That's a good change to make, agreed.

Alright, so two options: ignore his time stop or walk through his prismatic sphere and break his stone shape. Hello, non-teleporting wizard!

Can't break the stone shape. It's being protected by the prismatic sphere. And you can't walk through the prismatic sphere because there's a dome of stone along its inner radius.

Ignoring a time stop is all well and good, except that if the wizard knows you can do that (and he will), he'll merely Quicken the stone shape instead.

Shouldn't ring gates not function under dimensional anchor, being based on gate? Not too big a point, though, regardless.

If the wizard targeted a ring gate directly, sure. Though I suppose, since he's already shapechanged into an incorporeal critter, he could forgo the dimensional anchor and merely leave a 1' x 1' x .5' space at the bottom of the stone shape to store the ring gate (with the rest consisting of solid stone); he can cast out of the ring gate easily enough, and nothing else can really affect him whilst he's inside the sphere, inside the dome, and physically (or not...) inside solid stone.

He'll figure out which one works the best some day prior, when his life isn't being threatened.

Shadow evocation does not exist. Contingency can be bypassed.

Like I said; nerfs and bans.

And you can't really bypass a contingency if it's a self-buff (note that a contingency will trigger regardless of whether or not the wizard is aware of the action that triggered it; so long as the trigger occurs, the contingency activates). And even if you try the AMF, he can easily get around that, too.

All very clever tactics.

Thanks. Anyone with a sky-high Int should be clever. Especially when they can literally rewrite reality on a whim.

Item to bypass both.

If such an item exists, he can simply research a spell that allows him to bypass the item's effects.

Or, while he's tailing those who are planning to kill him (via scrying or doing it the old fashioned way, using some Knowledge/Gather Info/etc checks, using spells such as moment of prescience and by taking 10), he'll just pay off (or Diplomacize, or dominate, whatever it takes) whoever is making such items to 'add a little something special' to your items.

Part of being a wizard is knowing what's going on, and being all-but-omniscient. And if he knows you're coming, he's going to go on recon, guaranteed.

Neither plane exists in the cosmology; attempting to open a gate to either would be more risk than it's worth.

Then some other nasty plane. The wizard should have a REALLY high Knowledge (The Planes) check, and would have some good ideas he'd tested out way in advance, if such was on his list of desired tactics.

Knowledge really DOES equal power, after all.

Ignore the spell.

Nice argument.

Not.

Reverse gravity doesn't allow for SR, or a save. No allowances are made for flying creatures, either. The only way to avoid it is if you attach yourself to something.

Homebrew an item for it if you want; however, how much money are you spending on all of these things again?

Again, what one would expect from an intelligent wizard.

'Tis the tip of the proverbial iceburg.

Where was this ruling made? I'd very much like to see it.

Two places, actually.

One (from the SRD): "Natural Abilities
...Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like."

Two: In the MM V, the creatures with spellcasting have it listed as an Ex attack.

So, either way, since spellcasting isn't elsewhere marked as Su or Sp, you've got the choice between Natural Abilities (which you get), or Ex attacks (which you likewise get).

All of which rely on the same function. Ignored.

Same function? What?

If you simply houserule something to the effect of, "You are immune to anything that a wizard can do," then of course you'll win. But that requires Rule 0 and nerfage, which I've already covered.

All of which rely on the same function. Ignored.

Again, what?

Yes, but once again, they all rely on the same function. Ignored.

Please explain. Otherwise you're simply brushing off things without even showing that you're considering their ramifications.

Alright, so the wizard has a boatload of toys that all enrich the same function. Ignored.

He can continue to kick ass over and over and over all day long, and not even chew through his spell slots. This is important for those advocating wearing him down through conflict over the course of a whole day. And I haven't even touched things like scrolls/wands/staves yet.

It's important, even if you're ignoring it.

I don't disagree, but the only spells that matter in battle are those in the her and now.

Except that you simply don't know what tricks are up his sleeves. Generally the best way to garner knowledge is through observation, and that's absolutely useless here, since he can change his entire build (essentially) every single day.

Not at all unimportant.

I am well aware of exactly how insane casters are at high levels, and I'm starting to find it more than a bit insulting that you give me so little credit.

Considering your responses ("Ignored!" and "Unimportant!"), you shouldn't feel insulted whatsoever.

[Lycanthromancer]

I'm fully aware that you get the supernatural abilities of creatures into which you shapechange, but I would like to see how you were able to infer that you get their spellcasting. You don't.

Spells do not have a tag because they don't need one, because they work in the same way as they would for a member of a character class. Are those extraordinary abilities?

See my post above.

All abilities are A.) Natural, B.) Ex, C.) Su, and D.) Sp, (unless they're E.) Ps, and they ain't) and spellcasting can only be A or B, due to the way C and D work. And those spells grant you A and B.

Note that I'm neglecting the really badly-written entries where possesion of a vorpal sword is considered a supernatural ability (which was also really inconsistent, because magic items are not listed as having one of the three standard types either).

Fair enough.

Also, the abilities you mentioned before can all be countered with homebrew abilities and character options. Do you have any combos which are not dependent on the same few spells?

I do. Dozens of clones (hidden away all over the world, in secret vaults under the earth, or even in safe-deposit boxes at well-respected financial institutions); dozens of simulacrums (only some of which are of YOU; the rest can be things like high-powered demons, devils, and celestials, all of which retain their casting and Su abilities); trap the soul gems placed in the party's bags of holding/belt pouches/treasure hoards (note that the value of relatively cheap gems can be increased dramatically using fabricate and uber-high Craft checks) - any time one of you willingly touches a gem, your body and soul are sucked inside; traps of antimagic field placed over pits of acid/fire/spikes/monsters that require flight to overcome; Metamagicked-out-the-wazoo disintegrates; depending on the party's general alignment, being a well-loved public figure well-known for his work with hungry orphans (good luck escaping your wanted status as deranged criminals...all set up in advance, of course); lots of no-save-and-still-die spells, such as imprisonment; a Twinned/Split Ray'd/Empowered/Maximized enervation, followed by a Quickened/Empowered version of the same; etc, etc, etc.

[afroakuma]

Can't break the stone shape. It's being protected by the prismatic sphere. And you can't walk through the prismatic sphere because there's a dome of stone along its inner radius.

Fine, then break the stone shape through the prismatic sphere, in the same way you would have stepped through it. Other than its explicit "I destroy everything" effect, prismatic sphere doesn't actually defend from most physical objects passing through, unless they're ranged or a breath weapon.

Ignoring a time stop is all well and good, except that if the wizard knows you can do that (and he will), he'll merely Quicken the stone shape instead.

He likely won't, since the same trick that you can use to get around his time stop also lets you dodge his finding out about said trick. Also, mind blank.

Like I said; nerfs and bans.

Shadow spells aren't being banned for their power or anything; they're banned because the voters told us "no Plane of Shadow." Contingency is not being nerfed; there is a new way to bypass it, but the spell itself has all the capabilities it ever did. More, actually, when programmed contingency joins the party.

And you can't really bypass a contingency if it's a self-buff (note that a contingency will trigger regardless of whether or not the wizard is aware of the action that triggered it; so long as the trigger occurs, the contingency activates). And even if you try the AMF, he can easily get around that, too.

Of course you can: have an ability that makes contingency ignore you and the things that you do.

Thanks. Anyone with a sky-high Int should be clever.

Are you trying to imply that you have a sky-high Int?

If such an item exists, he can simply research a spell that allows him to bypass the item's effects.

Ah, now that may not be so true.

Or, while he's tailing those who are planning to kill him (via scrying or doing it the old fashioned way, using some Knowledge/Gather Info/etc checks, using spells such as moment of prescience and by taking 10), he'll just pay off (or Diplomacize, or dominate, whatever it takes) whoever is making such items to 'add a little something special' to your items.

A good idea, but likely not an option...

Part of being a wizard is knowing what's going on, and being all-but-omniscient. And if he knows you're coming, he's going to go on recon, guaranteed.

Oh, of course, but dump a truck full of scorpions in anyone's mouth and they'll be a bit preoccupied.

Then some other nasty plane. The wizard should have a REALLY high Knowledge (The Planes) check, and would have some good ideas he'd tested out way in advance, if such was on his list of desired tactics.

There seriously are none. Discovering any plane outside the twin planes takes ludicrous Knowledge checks, and employing gate in such a fashion has terrible risks.

Nice argument.

Not.

Once again, you are completely ignoring the purpose of this thread in your quest to prove the superiority of wizards.

Homebrew an item for it if you want; however, how much money are you spending on all of these things again?

Oh, that's not an item.

One (from the SRD): "Natural Abilities
...Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like."

This argument is effectively specious. It's a cousin of rope trick, the drowning rule flaws and the question of being a very active dead guy. In other words, an essential flaw that assumes players will (correctly) interpret spells as spell-like.

Two: In the MM V, the creatures with spellcasting have it listed as an Ex attack.

Alright, I went 100 pages in and didn't spot a native spellcasting creature. Care to name one?

Same function? What?

Everything a wizard does boils down to one simple fact:

"This is a spell."

Whatever horrors a wizard intends to perpetrate, he does so via spell. If you can ignore a spell, you can ignore just about anything that a wizard can try on you. There are some distinct exceptions, may of which are decent tactical options in their own right.

If you simply houserule something to the effect of, "You are immune to anything that a wizard can do," then of course you'll win. But that requires Rule 0 and nerfage, which I've already covered.

Neither of which I am going to do.

Considering your responses ("Ignored!" and "Unimportant!"), you shouldn't feel insulted whatsoever.

Funny how that came off as an insult as well.

Lycanthromancer, do you actually intend to contribute to the goals of this thread, or are you simply here to cheerlead for the wizard and tell me I can't be rid of him unless I rocket him to godhood?

[Tohron]

I wonder, does foresight work on someone inside an anti-magic field? Say, if a rogue is inside a personal anti-magic field and decides to stab his old chum Wizardly Wizardington, would Wizardly be able to perceive it?

Anyway, killing wizards is a simple as doing a bluff check. To fool the universe and its fat twin reality of your intent. After you've managed that, the wizard might as well lay down and die, because nothing, NOTHING will be able to save him.

Nobody else seems to have noticed this post, but that's a good point - although from the wording of the DC 100 Epic Bluff ability, it sounds like it would only fool thought detecting spells, not general divination spells like Foresight. However, if a character with Int 10 or lower used this ability, they could make themselves appear unconscious by lowering their apparent Int, thus (depending on how you interpret the ability) potentially altering divination outputs so that the Wizard does not detect them sneaking up. Once they are close enough, they activate a scroll of Gate to summon their Ubercharger companion, then their contingent Antimagic Field goes off. The Ubercharger then uses a readied action to charge the wizard and make them go splat.

So to do this, this guy needs to be able to make a DC 100 Bluff check, a DC 37 UMD check, and be able to beat a wizard's Spot and Listen modifiers with the usual buffs. His companion needs to be able to reliably kill a wizard without buffs in a single charge, without the use of magic items. Are there any problems with this plan? If not, how would you go about building these characters?

[Haven]

Definitely Wizardbane...or more accurately, Wizard'Bane'. It's very appropriate considering we're trying to 'break' the wizard's dominance.

Now that's a scary thought, actually. Bane with magic?

Oh man...whatever this thread comes up with has to be called "the Bane build", because it's all about breaking Batman's back.

[Enochi]

Was a thread awhile back called the Joker build which was designed to counter the batman...it failed if I remember correctly.

[brujon]

Have a Half-Clay Golem Goliath Lion Totem Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker. Make it so the Half-Clay template is added only after the barbarian received a mind-blank. That way, the wizard won't know that the template is received. Good. Now, he can't be scryed on, since he's immune to spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects. Now the only thing that can hurt him is earthquake, move earth, and disintegrate. Get him an item that A) Makes him immune to slow B) Makes him immune to the spell Disintegrate and C) Freedom of Movement. So now, the wizard can't blast him with ANYTHING. He's in fact, immune to anything the wizard throws at him the first round of combat (The surprise round). Now, get him a +12 initiative bonus item, and a buffed out spear, as well as a 100-feet emanation that blocks all teleport effects and can be supressed as a free action. I'll leave the details to you. Then, he rages and frenzies, charge the wizard, and wins.(If you don't want a charger, make him a grappler, either way, the wizard loses.)

(I'm away from books right now so i can't really make all the crunchy crunchy details, but with the WBL of the entire party, it can be done... The wizard will be like "WTF?!" when he sees that his spells don't even make a dent.)

[Swordguy]

Hey guys, I've been thinking about this thread since I saw it, and on balance, I think people are going about this the wrong way. When the wizard can play his game (auto-win init, Time Stop, boom, drain, bam, etc) you've got no chance. I think we're all agreed to that. What we need to do is change the rules of the game at a fundamental level. No, not the mechanics, but the core assumptions underlying most of the discussion here.

This mission is actually closer to something out of Shadowrun than out of D&D. In SR, you're often presented with missions where you have to break into facilities what are labeled a "break-in proof" by corporations with better people, better equipment, and unlimited budgets - in short, every advantage. Yet you still have to do it. What we look for "play" in the facility's security setup. Locks have "play," a small amount of theoretically unnecessary movement. However, if you remove the play, the lock is so tight that it won't rotate at all, even for the legit key. This play is what allows lock picking to work.

Most systems have play. Without some play systems typically break down. You absolutely, positively need ID to enter the building? What happens when someone steals your ID? How can you get into the building to get a new ID issued? Heck, how can you get in in the first place to get the ID? Any motion in the yard triggers an alarm? What about squirrels and birds? Absolutely uncrackable safe that can only be opened by a password memorized by the company's CEO? What happens when the CEO gets run over by a truck?

Seek out the edge cases and determine where a system needs play to cope with the real world. Then arrange exactly those circumstances.

Coming back to the topic, where is the play in the wizard's "auto-win intitiative, and killinate you all without breaking a sweat" routine? The answer is easy - ALLOWING THE WIZARD TO ROLL INIT IN THE FIRST PLACE. We're all gamers, we have a basic assumption that when there's going to be combat of some sort, everyone starts off by rolling init. Even if there's a surprise round (which the wizard also auto-wins), there the opportunity to react to an attack. But this isn't necessarily the case. What we have to do is find a way to hit the wizard WITHOUT giving him even the opportunity to roll initiative.

If you can find a way (offhand, I'd suggest a stealthed sniper of some sort) to get ONE attack off without the wizard being aware of it until it actually hits (and activates all his contingencies), then you've got a chance. Then the question become how to manufacture the opportunity for the attack. Find a way to remove the wizard from his home turf, preferably. But the most important step is finding that first point of failure in the mechanics of the wizard's "I win" routine - and exploit it.

Unless, of course, the wizard has a contingency that goes off "whenever someone else takes an action that I want to interrupt" or similar. In which case it's hopeless.

[afroakuma]

This mission is actually closer to something out of Shadowrun than out of D&D. In SR, you're often presented with missions where you have to break into facilities what are labeled a "break-in proof" by corporations with better people, better equipment, and unlimited budgets - in short, every advantage. Yet you still have to do it. What we look for "play" in the facility's security setup. Locks have "play," a small amount of theoretically unnecessary movement. However, if you remove the play, the lock is so tight that it won't rotate at all, even for the legit key. This play is what allows lock picking to work.

Most systems have play. Without some play systems typically break down. You absolutely, positively need ID to enter the building? What happens when someone steals your ID? How can you get into the building to get a new ID issued? Heck, how can you get in in the first place to get the ID? Any motion in the yard triggers an alarm? What about squirrels and birds? Absolutely uncrackable safe that can only be opened by a password memorized by the company's CEO? What happens when the CEO gets run over by a truck?

Seek out the edge cases and determine where a system needs play to cope with the real world. Then arrange exactly those circumstances.

See, that's sort of where I'm going with this, except that what I'm looking for breaks down to:

• Given motion sensors, how can you move without triggering them?
○○ Disable the sensors, or bring your movement to a scale that the sensors must ignore to be of any practical value.

• Given heat sensors, how can you be present without triggering them?
○○ Disable the sensors, or change the threshold at which they detect and hide within it. Who's seen Sneakers? :D

• Given twenty-seven guards ambushing you with automatic rifles and impenetrable armor, how can you survive?
○○ Have impenetrable armor yourself, or hold the CEO hostage as a human shield, or bluff the guards, or be somewhere else and have that be a decoy.

In other words, it's not "what are you capable of doing now," it's "what would you need to be able to do."

[Swordguy]

See, that's sort of where I'm going with this, except that what I'm looking for breaks down to:

• Given motion sensors, how can you move without triggering them?
○○ Disable the sensors, or bring your movement to a scale that the sensors must ignore to be of any practical value.

• Given heat sensors, how can you be present without triggering them?
○○ Disable the sensors, or change the threshold at which they detect and hide within it. Who's seen Sneakers? :D

• Given twenty-seven guards ambushing you with automatic rifles and impenetrable armor, how can you survive?
○○ Have impenetrable armor yourself, or hold the CEO hostage as a human shield, or bluff the guards, or be somewhere else and have that be a decoy.

In other words, it's not "what are you capable of doing now," it's "what would you need to be able to do."

See, that's the thing - regarding this problem, I don't know. I've gone out of my way to play 3.x in the way it was intended to be played, and never played the overoptimization game. What I'm trying to do with my post is break the mental logjam in this thread by pointing out conceptually what people should be looking to do, which has everything to do with how you think, and not the details of the mechanics.

Then, once we know where to look and how to think, the people who get some sort of sexual thrill out of breaking games and making DM's miserable can take care of the nitty-gritty "how do make the mechanics give us the desired result" part.

[afroakuma]

See, that's the thing - regarding this problem, I don't know. I've gone out of my way to play 3.x in the way it was intended to be played, and never played the overoptimization game. What I'm trying to do with my post is break the mental logjam in this thread by pointing out conceptually what people should be looking to do, which has everything to do with how you think, and not the details of the mechanics.

That's entirely fair. I'm not asking about mechanics, after all. I am asking about process.