OOTS #656 - The Discussion Thread

[Iranon]

...and we're back at step 452.

The last time V snuck away invisibly and left his allies behind, it resulted in a rather impressive breakdown (calm enough that nobody even noticed for a long time).
Arcane power failing to overpower the opponent can't be all - for example, V's ego did not seem to take any lasting damage from the beating handed out by Leeky & friends and needing to be bailed out by Durkon (with divine fudging), or the Caputt-ex-Machina* save from the death knight.

I'm very curious if V has learned a lesson since then, and if yes what it was (I don't see anything wrong with retreating if the alternative is dying in ineffectual heroics; blaming a caster low on spell slots for retreating is like blaming a fighter who lost a couple of limbs).

[Mars]

Can't see O-Chul dying. It would be near the same level of stupidity of killing off Optimus Prime.

[Evaine]

Awesome comic, as usual. I still think the MitD is going to step in and save O-Chul, but I'd be willing to bet that V is going to have to decide whether or not to act to get him out of there.

Just my bit of wild speculation again. However the Giant decides to do it, I'm sure it will be great.

[ironballs]

I don't think they'll Kill O-Chul - after all, he's their favorite pet :)

however, even if V will escape the building - she's still stuck in Azura city - she can't teleport out - the anti teleport enchantment is still in it's place (or at least, it should be).

It was pretty obvious O-chul won't be able to break the amulet - even without protective spells - definitely not with an iron bar against Damage reduction 20.

great strip though! can't wait to see what comes next!

[factotum]

however, even if V will escape the building - she's still stuck in Azura city - she can't teleport out - the anti teleport enchantment is still in it's place (or at least, it should be).

Pretty sure it was stated that Cloister blocks INCOMING Teleports, not outgoing ones. However, it's a moot point anyway because V does not know Teleport and never HAS known Teleport...

[Nighthawk4]

That is SO funny. How to open the door without revealing where he/she is.


Also, it would seem the Phylactery is tougher than it looked.

[pendell]

Can't see O-Chul dying. It would be near the same level of stupidity of killing off Optimus Prime.

Think so? I think O-chul has had 'tragic hero who goes out in a blaze of glory' written on his brow since his last meeting with Hinjo.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Can't see O-Chul dying. It would be near the same level of stupidity of killing off Optimus Prime.

I don't know, they are a bit different. Optimus Prime was one of the main characters and the real leader figure, and his replacement couldn't hold a candle to him (sorry Rodimus). O-Chul is a great secondary character who seems determined to go out if necessary (nearly chopping the Gate Sapphire, now going after Team Evil near naked and almost unarmed)...

I'd be happy if O-Chul didn't die, or if his death was sufficiently worthy of a character of his stature. Death or freedom, I don't think he will be going back in his cage again.

Plus, there is the MitD factor.

[Antacid]

Xykon is best villain ever. he's smart and has a sense of humour

So what you mean is, I think Xykon is a pretty cool guy. eh meteors O'Chul and doesn't afraid of anything...

[Snowgods]

Do Evil Outsiders go to the toilet?, or is the John a mortal with common name?

[Ron Miel]

If they eat then they also evacuate.

[Krakes]

If the phylactery is so hard to destroy, why did Xykon panic when Soon's ghost threatened it in #462?

O-Chul is bad-ass. He's in trouble but he still did more than V managed despite the soul-splice. Maybe now V will get his/her head out of his/her ass.

[Omegonthesane]

If the phylactery is so hard to destroy, why did Xykon panic when Soon's ghost threatened it in #462?

O-Chul is bad-ass. He's in trouble but he still did more than V managed despite the soul-splice. Maybe now V will get his/her head out of his/her ass.

It probably isn't that hard to destroy if you have time, or are an Epic-level Paladin, or in Soon's case both in the hypothetical universe where Miko was not such an idiot.

[factotum]

If the phylactery is so hard to destroy, why did Xykon panic when Soon's ghost threatened it in #462?

Because firstly that was many months ago and Xykon has quite possibly added a lot more protective spells since then, and secondly, something that's hard to destroy for a single paladin using an improvised weapon who only has a couple of rounds to act is not necessarily going to be hard to destroy when you've got plenty of time and equipment to do the job.

[DrivinAllNight]

If the phylactery is so hard to destroy, why did Xykon panic when Soon's ghost threatened it in #462?

Because Xykon didn't think anyone knew about the phylactery, and here is an ethereal otherworldly being who not only knows about it but judging by the look on Soon's face, is that he knows how to destroy it, so of course Xykon would be panicked. O'Chul knows it's a phylactery, but has no access to known needs to destroy, and maybe Xykon did some beefing up of it since strip #462 as a precaution.
That's my thoughts anyways.


edit: Do'h, i got Ninja'd

[Kaytara]

If the phylactery is so hard to destroy, why did Xykon panic when Soon's ghost threatened it in #462?

Probably because it wasn't that well-warded back then; it's likely the Soon incident is what prompted Xykon to get a reality check and ward his phylactery against everything and its mother in the first place.

[Vagrant-Poet]

Can't see O-Chul dying. It would be near the same level of stupidity of killing off Optimus Prime.

Death is an important story telling tool, and ultimately this is a story. Someone's going to die, someone gutt-wrenching.

[Shatteredtower]

He was too stupid to live.

If by that, you mean, "He worked with Xykon," you might have a point. Otherwise, no.

He didn't buff, didn't have minions, and didn't even have a weapon.

Because everything happens on panel and weapons are always visible.

He deserved to die, and not be resurrected.

Yes, because the appropriate view of someone that will rush to his supreme leader's side when it sounds like he is in danger, then giving his last breath to sounding an alarm to the most powerful ally in the room deserves only contempt and derision. Nothing lawful evil about that sort of behaviour at all.

He obviously takes after Redcloak, though. These guys have enemies jumping at them from the potted fern, and Red still doesn't carry a weapon, buff in the morning, or surround himself with meatshields.

First of all, a cleric is a weapon. Second, you have no idea what Redcloak does in the morning. Third, any meatshields would have been dead by now, what with the combination of V's Chain Lightning and one of Xykon's two Meteor Swarms.The lich sacrifices minions faster than someone with a gambling addiction blows through money at a VLT.

Maybe losing an eye and a lieutenant would teach Red a lesson about combat readiness?

I think the Giant has more important concerns, ones that actually contribute something to an entertaining, humour-based comic. Power gaming makes for dull reading.

[Omegonthesane]

Yes, because the appropriate view of someone that will rush to his supreme leader's side when it sounds like he is in danger, then giving his last breath to sounding an alarm to the most powerful ally in the room deserves only contempt and derision. Nothing lawful evil about that sort of behaviour at all.

You're absolutely right, there's nothing lawful evil about that behaviour. It's clearly chaotic evil, because a typical LE person would be organised enough to value such a loyal resource. Especially if Jirix is high enough level to be worth Raising for his abilities.

First of all, a cleric is a weapon. Second, you have no idea what Redcloak does in the morning. Third, any meatshields would have been dead by now, what with the combination of V's Chain Lightning and one of Xykon's two Meteor Swarms.The lich sacrifices minions faster than someone with a gambling addiction blows through money at a VLT.

A cleric has destructive power, but they also have simple weapon proficiency, so an archetypal cleric carries a weapon as a backup plan should something get into killiness range. Redcloak takes no such precautions, presumably relying instead on Xykon and his hobgoblin army to prevent that emergency from happening and Word of Recall to escape it should it happen anyway.

The rest can be QFT.

I think the Giant has more important concerns, ones that actually contribute something to an entertaining, humour-based comic. Power gaming makes for dull reading.

The Giant has said outright that the majority of OOTS characters are sub-optimal. Belkar, especially - a halfling is not a melee monster, a ranger does not have Wisdom too low for spellcasting, etc.

[Hurkyl]

He got four attacks

It looked more like one attack, then three attacks.

He didn't buff, didn't have minions, and didn't even have a weapon.

Where was he going to find minions and a weapon in the nine seconds he spent sprinting away from the site of the victorious battle?

(And I think I'm being generous giving him nine seconds)

[Swordster]

A cleric has destructive power, but they also have simple weapon proficiency, so an archetypal cleric carries a weapon as a backup plan should something get into killiness range. Redcloak takes no such precautions, presumably relying instead on Xykon and his hobgoblin army to prevent that emergency from happening and Word of Recall to escape it should it happen anyway.

Redcloak is goblin, which means he has a racial penalty to Strength. Combine that with the fact that his formative years (lower-middle levels, where your characters tactics begin to become consistent) were spent as a spellcasting cleric following his melee-build brother and their warrior minions around. Redcloak has more powerful 0-level spells than anything he'd do with a mace (exaggeration, but not much of one). Yes, it's a suboptimal build for a cleric not to carry a weapon. But it makes sense for Redcloak.

[Shatteredtower]

I don't know about chaotic evil, there, Omegathesane, though I'll acknowledge that the personal loyalty thing is one way it could work for a chaotic evil type. I can also see it working for the lawful types, though, where hierarchy may take precedent over personal safety.

There are merits to the backup weapon, I'll admit, but it does play against the standard for this story, which ties to the "sub-optimal" standard you've noted. Roy never carries more than one weapon, Belkar carries only daggers (not much good against liches), and Haley only recently picked up a melee weapon. Aside from Haley and Belkar, no one in the party has a ranged weapon. There are merits to equipping them (and many of their opponents) better, but it might not be worth the hassle it would cost the artist.

[Selene]

V's best escape option isn't feather fall anyways. Open the door,

Meteor Swarm

crap.

[Basooned]

But isn't O-Chul a paladin? If he had enough half-saves and low rolls luckily handed to him and is still in +hitpoints, can he not lay on hands himself or otherwise?

[Omegonthesane]

But isn't O-Chul a paladin? If he had enough half-saves and low rolls luckily handed to him and is still in +hitpoints, can he not lay on hands himself or otherwise?

Only works if the Pally has CHA 12 or higher, and CHA is O-Chul's dump stat from his years as a Fighter.

[Basooned]

Only works if the Pally has CHA 12 or higher, and CHA is O-Chul's dump stat from his years as a Fighter.

But then can he even *be* a paladin if he couldnt use paladin spells? I am only familiar with most of my D&D from the excellent but restricted Bioware games and remember needing alot of prerequistes to get stuff.

[Omegonthesane]

But then can he even *be* a paladin if he couldnt use paladin spells? I am only familiar with most of my D&D from the excellent but restricted Bioware games and remember needing alot of prerequistes to get stuff.

Paladin is a Base class as of 3.5. Being a viable paladin may require more than O-Chul has, but being a paladin only requires that you are LG and keep the code. Hell, O-Chul may have only one paladin level so he can get Detect Evil and join the Sapphire Guard - although three paladin levels for divine health would also be sensible, and he certainly has the wisdom to cast spells if he ever got to Pal 4.

[Antacid]

I think the Giant has more important concerns, ones that actually contribute something to an entertaining, humour-based comic. Power gaming makes for dull reading.

5/5 post.

[LuisDantas]

But then can he even *be* a paladin if he couldnt use paladin spells? I am only familiar with most of my D&D from the excellent but restricted Bioware games and remember needing alot of prerequistes to get stuff.

It used to be (up until AD&D V2, I think) that only characters with excellent stats, including CHA, could be Paladins. As of D&D 3.5 (probably 3.0 as well) that was no longer true, although of course high stats come quite handy anyway.

[aka Argent]

Well, we know O-Chul's CHA sucks - he used it as a dump stat back when he was starting out as a fighter - so his Lay on Hands does nothing. His Smite Evil only works because it adds 1 point per Paladin level as well as CHA bonus, though I wouldn't put it past The Giant to have some form of homebrew smite feat available to the Azure City order, like adds WIS bonus as well as CHA bonus. O-Chul probably has enough WIS and Pally Levels to cast heals, but that's more of a downtime occasion.

Do we know how O's Fighter/Pally levels split out? F4/P12 looks very different than F6/P10 or F8/P8, especially when factoring in the Smite Damage Redcloak's eye took.