Questions about ToB mechanics

[Godskook]

I've been trying to create a Swordsage character, and I keep running up against some points that I'm not too sure about.

1)Does a multiclass martial adept get to exchange his maneuvers, and if so, when? From what I've read, he can only do it while leveling in his base class(Swordsage, Crusader, Warblade). If he can, when?(I'm not talking about 'when he gains his next even level base adept level')

2)Assuming that a multiclass adept can still switch out for higher level maneuvers, is the same true for prestige class maneuvers, such as those granted by Master of Nine?

3)Do stances count as maneuvers for the purpose of qualifying for prestige classes and other maneuvers/stances? The book is poorly worded on this front, since sometimes it refers to stances as a type of maneuver and sometimes refers to it as being seperate, in the prerequisites of the prestige classes.

4)How are disciplines handled for prestige classes? I'm assuming that maneuvers known slots granted by a prestige class may only be filled with prestige class applicable maneuvers(for instance, a 5th level Bloodclaw Master must know 3 Tiger Claw Maneuvers), but if retraining is allowed, does the base class's restrictions take over(for instance a SS 7/Mo9 5, who takes more levels of Swordsage, can he retrain his Iron Heart maneuvers till he eventually learns a level 9 one, even though he isn't 'in' Mo9 anymore, or will his Swordsage restrictions prevent that)?

All of these questions seem irritatingly simple to me, but reading and rereading ToB has only pushed me to ask here.

[Eldariel]

I've been trying to create a Swordsage character, and I keep running up against some points that I'm not too sure about.

1)Does a multiclass martial adept get to exchange his maneuvers, and if so, when? From what I've read, he can only do it while leveling in his base class(Swordsage, Crusader, Warblade). If he can, when?(I'm not talking about 'when he gains his next even level base adept level')

Level 4 and every 2 levels thereafter. It's stated in the "maneuvers"-description on the classes.

2)Assuming that a multiclass adept can still switch out for higher level maneuvers, is the same true for prestige class maneuvers, such as those granted by Master of Nine?

As far as I remember, for the maneuvers (provided you learned them as maneuvers for the class you're advancing after the PrC), yes. Like Swordsage 10/Master of the Nine 5/Swordsage 5 could be switching out MoTN maneuvers with the last Swordsage levels, because he learned them as Swordsage maneuvers.

3)Do stances count as maneuvers for the purpose of qualifying for prestige classes and other maneuvers/stances? The book is poorly worded on this front, since sometimes it refers to stances as a type of maneuver and sometimes refers to it as being seperate, in the prerequisites of the prestige classes.

Stances count as prerequisites.

4)How are disciplines handled for prestige classes? I'm assuming that maneuvers known slots granted by a prestige class may only be filled with prestige class applicable maneuvers(for instance, a 5th level Bloodclaw Master must know 3 Tiger Claw Maneuvers), but if retraining is allowed, does the base class's restrictions take over(for instance a SS 7/Mo9 5, who takes more levels of Swordsage, can he retrain his Iron Heart maneuvers till he eventually learns a level 9 one, even though he isn't 'in' Mo9 anymore, or will his Swordsage restrictions prevent that)?

You should use the class's standard initiator level for all schools the PrC gives you access to. If you're multiclassed, use the IL of the class you're learning them for. SS/Mo9 would therefore be able to pick level 9 abilities from Iron Heart, White Raven and Devoted Spirit provided they get the qualifications and take them during the Mo9 levels.

[Lycar]

1)Does a multiclass martial adept get to exchange his maneuvers, and if so, when? From what I've read, he can only do it while leveling in his base class(Swordsage, Crusader, Warblade). If he can, when?(I'm not talking about 'when he gains his next even level base adept level')

I am not quite sure what you ask about? A Warblade, foe example, learns new manouvers on odd levels, and gets to exchange a single manouver on all even levels, starting with lv. 4. Kinda like Sorcerors or Bards get to exchange spells known.

2)Assuming that a multiclass adept can still switch out for higher level maneuvers, is the same true for prestige class maneuvers, such as those granted by Master of Nine?

As far as I read it, the prestige classes don't grant the opportunity to exchange manouvers. But once you add a manouver, gained from a level in a prestige class, to one of your base classes know manouvers, the same manouver can later be exchanged when you level up in the base class.

3)Do stances count as maneuvers for the purpose of qualifying for prestige classes and other maneuvers/stances? The book is poorly worded on this front, since sometimes it refers to stances as a type of maneuver and sometimes refers to it as being seperate, in the prerequisites of the prestige classes.

Yes.

For example, taking Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap and Blood in the Water counts as the 3 Tiger Claw manouvers you need to qualify for Bloodclaw Master. For prerequisites, Strikes, Counters and Stances all count as manouvers. You can not, however, exchange a stance like you can exchange manouvers. Once you select a stance, you are stuck with it. I suppose that is where the confusion comes from.

4)How are disciplines handled for prestige classes? I'm assuming that maneuvers known slots granted by a prestige class may only be filled with prestige class applicable maneuvers(for instance, a 5th level Bloodclaw Master must know 3 Tiger Claw Maneuvers), but if retraining is allowed, does the base class's restrictions take over(for instance a SS 7/Mo9 5, who takes more levels of Swordsage, can he retrain his Iron Heart maneuvers till he eventually learns a level 9 one, even though he isn't 'in' Mo9 anymore, or will his Swordsage restrictions prevent that)?

As I read it, you have to meet the restrictions of the class you level up in.

For example, you have to meet the prerequisites for a prestige class to take levels in it. You could later take more levels in SS and exchange manouvers, thus no longer meeting the prerequisites for Mo9.

This would mean that you can no longer take levels in Mo9. If this also means that you lose access to Mo9 class features is DM's call I'd say.


Just my proverbial 2c worth of understanding.

Lycar

[quick_comment]

You only get to exchange maneuvers when leveling in the base class.

[Godskook]

I am not quite sure what you ask about? A Warblade, foe example, learns new manouvers on odd levels, and gets to exchange a single manouver on all even levels, starting with lv. 4. Kinda like Sorcerors or Bards get to exchange spells known.

Example:

A character takes 1 level of Swordsage, choosing at least 2 Shadow hand maneuvers. He then takes 12+ Fighter levels. He now meets the requirements for Obscuring Shadow Veil, but as he levels in Fighter between ECL 13 and 17, is there a way for him to learn that feat in one of his current 'Maneuvers known' slots?

I know that he can learn it by gaining a new slot(by leveling in a class that grants new slots known or taking a feat), or by leveling in his base class to an even level of 4th or later, but I'm wondering if he can do that while leveling in a class that is a)not his base class and b)without spending a new slot on it.

It is dissimilar from bard and sorcerer in that spellcasting prestige classes use different language than martial adept prestige classes do about what gets added to what.

As far as I read it, the prestige classes don't grant the opportunity to exchange manouvers. But once you add a manouver, gained from a level in a prestige class, to one of your base classes know manouvers, the same manouver can later be exchanged when you level up in the base class.

Yes.

For example, taking Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap and Blood in the Water counts as the 3 Tiger Claw manouvers you need to qualify for Bloodclaw Master. For prerequisites, Strikes, Counters and Stances all count as manouvers. You can not, however, exchange a stance like you can exchange manouvers. Once you select a stance, you are stuck with it. I suppose that is where the confusion comes from.

Actually, the confusion comes from other prestige classes, such as Ruby Knight Vindicator, which ask for 'one devoted spirit maneuver' and 'one devoted spirit stance'. If stances and maneuvers are equivalent, you could qualify with just a devoted spirit stance, since that stance is also a maneuver.

For example, you have to meet the prerequisites for a prestige class to take levels in it. You could later take more levels in SS and exchange manouvers, thus no longer meeting the prerequisites for Mo9.

This would mean that you can no longer take levels in Mo9. If this also means that you lose access to Mo9 class features is DM's call I'd say.

Um, I wasn't talking here about disqualifying myself for the prestige class.

I was asking if:

----Swordsage 7/Master of Nine 5/Swordsage 8

can have a 9th level Iron Heart Maneuver without taking feats. To compare, this build:

----Swordsage 15/Master of Nine 5

can have a 9th level Iron Heart Maneuver.

[Dhavaer]

Example:

A character takes 1 level of Swordsage, choosing at least 2 Shadow hand maneuvers. He then takes 12+ Fighter levels. He now meets the requirements for Obscuring Shadow Veil, but as he levels in Fighter between ECL 13 and 17, is there a way for him to learn that feat in one of his current 'Maneuvers known' slots?

I know that he can learn it by gaining a new slot(by leveling in a class that grants new slots known or taking a feat), or by leveling in his base class to an even level of 4th or later, but I'm wondering if he can do that while leveling in a class that is a)not his base class and b)without spending a new slot on it.

It is dissimilar from bard and sorcerer in that spellcasting prestige classes use different language than martial adept prestige classes do about what gets added to what.

You would have to take another three swordsage levels to replace a maneuver. The only maneuver-related benefit you get from Fighter levels is increased Initiator Level.

Um, I wasn't talking here about disqualifying myself for the prestige class.

I was asking if:

----Swordsage 7/Master of Nine 5/Swordsage 8

can have a 9th level Iron Heart Maneuver without taking feats. To compare, this build:

----Swordsage 15/Master of Nine 5

can have a 9th level Iron Heart Maneuver.

No, you can't learn Iron Heart maneuvers from swordsage levels, even if you've learned them previously from another source.