Fixing Two Weapon Fighting

[Twilight Jack]

Well, we all know it doesn't work as advertised, but what do we do about it without creating more problems than we solve?

I keep coming back to the Marilith. Every proposed fix up with which I've come to place a ranger or two weapon fighter in an equivalent position to a Power Attacking two hander (never mind the other feats that turn the twohander into the Ubercharger) has the unfortunate side-effect of turning the six-armed marilith into an engine of destruction on par with the Tarrasque.

So what fixes have you guys come up with to make two-weapon fighting a viable mechanical choice when compared with the one feat path of Power Attack+greatsword?

[Zaq]

Turn TWF/ITWF/GTWF into one feat that scales.

Have another feat, available around level 6 or 8, that lets you make one offhand attack (along with your primary attack) as a standard action. Double Hit already exists, but this new feat I'm thinking of would actually treat them as two separate attacks (two attack rolls, but two sneak attacks or whatever).

It's still somewhat inferior without bonus damage, but at least it's now significantly less so.

[Goatman_Ted]

So what fixes have you guys come up with to make two-weapon fighting a viable mechanical choice when compared with the one feat path of Power Attack+greatsword?

I move that Two-Weapon Fighting as presented in D&D is silly. Let it suck, I say.

But something interesting might be a feat to -- as a part of an attack or complete defense action -- gain concealment while warding with an off-hand weapon or shield.

Maybe lay out a feat line that would advance to total concealment and let a two-weapon fighter (in the traditional sense, rather than the two-dozen-attacks-in-six-seconds sense) render enemies flat-footed when they miss due to concealment.

That would let a Rogue be much closer to the independent buckle-swashing class I want it to be.

[edit:]
'Concealment' would be problematic because of the way it interacts with Hide and Sneak Attack... a non-concealment miss chance would probably be closer to what I'm looking for.

[Jayabalard]

I keep coming back to the Marilith. Every proposed fix up with which I've come to place a ranger or two weapon fighter in an equivalent position to a Power Attacking two hander (never mind the other feats that turn the twohander into the Ubercharger) has the unfortunate side-effect of turning the six-armed marilith into an engine of destruction on par with the Tarrasque.

Have you considered that power attack might be the problem?

Perhaps it would be worthwhile to look into scaling back the damage from power attack, and then scaling up the power of melee weapons across the board.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

TWF problems:
Movement: any turn you need to move 10' you are wasting your second weapon. Some way of making an attack with both weapons as a standard act/on a charge fixes this.
Feat cost: TWF/ITWF/GTWF to start with, followed by the 3 TWD feats and any that you need to actully become good. Roll some of them into single feats, make others automatic, and don't have any feat slots used by fixes to the other TWF problems.
MAD: 13 or higher Dex is, while mot a major nerf, still expensive for most pt-buy.
Low Damage: PA and all that builds off of it is junk without Oversized TWF or Exotic Weapon Master(and generally bad even with that). Str needs both weapons to hit to get the same benefit as THF.
Weapon Selection: There are Thematic TWF builds, which use 2 one-handed or light weapons, reducing your weapon special ability selection and ability to use special attacks like Disarm, or Metagame TWF, using IUS or Armor Spikes with a 2-handed weapon. The first needs a boost in weapon selection that makes the second less attractive(no one wants to use Armor Spikes or IUS, they just have to to make TWF decent as-is).
Single hit: Certain abilities, like True Strike at low levels, discharge after one hit. You need 2 hits to make your feats more effective than Toughness. Situational weakness and one I wouldn't fix, but worth looking at for overall balance.
AoOs: You get one attack. The THF gets one atack. Why are you wielding that dagger, again?

[Twilight Jack]

Turn TWF/ITWF/GTWF into one feat that scales.

Have another feat, available around level 6 or 8, that lets you make one offhand attack (along with your primary attack) as a standard action. Double Hit already exists, but this new feat I'm thinking of would actually treat them as two separate attacks (two attack rolls, but two sneak attacks or whatever).

It's still somewhat inferior without bonus damage, but at least it's now significantly less so.

This is the very first solution that I thought of too.

The problem with it is that it gives the Marilith 19 attacks per round out of the box (presuming that we're still capping total quantity of off-hand attacks at 3, otherwise make it 24 attacks per round), unless you arbitrarily rule that multiweapon fighting is somehow different.

The current fix towards which I'm leaning is that TWF, ITWF, and GTWF are now only two feats, TWF for a single off-hand attack, and GTWF for all iterative attacks, available at BAB of +6. In addition, up to one off-hand attack may be made as part of a standard attack action or a charge, but any precision damage is applied only to the primary attack in this case (to keep rogues and scouts calm when they're not full-attacking).

I move that Two-Weapon Fighting as presented in D&D is silly. Let it suck, I say.

But something interesting might be a feat to -- as a part of an attack or complete defense action -- gain concealment while warding with an off-hand weapon or shield.

Maybe lay out a feat line that would advance to total concealment and let a two-weapon fighter (in the traditional sense, rather than the million-attacks-in-six-seconds sense) render enemies flat-footed when they miss due to concealment.

That would let a Rogue be much closer to the independent buckle-swashing character I want it to be.

An interesting choice.

[Hunter Noventa]

One thing would be to lessen the monetary penalty for taking TWF. When you TWF you pay twice as much to enchant your weapons. I'd say if you have two of the same weapon, you could enchant them as a pair for 150% cost of doing just one, assuming you put the same enchants on each.

Sublimating TWF, ITWF, GTWF and the like into scaling feats might not be a bad idea either, I might have to bring that up to my GM.

[Talya]

One thing would be to lessen the monetary penalty for taking TWF. When you TWF you pay twice as much to enchant your weapons. I'd say if you have two of the same weapon, you could enchant them as a pair for 150% cost of doing just one, assuming you put the same enchants on each.

Sublimating TWF, ITWF, GTWF and the like into scaling feats might not be a bad idea either, I might have to bring that up to my GM.

That's a houserule in my games. TWF, ITWF, and GTWF are a single feat, that scales with BAB. TWD, ITWD, and GTWD are also a single feat, that's +3 shield bonus from the start.

[mistformsquirrl]

If the problem is because of the Marelith, the solution may simply be to make an exception for that monster.

Ie: Fix TWF, but leave the Marelith with the old version.

At least that's my perspective.

[FMArthur]

TWF, ITWF, GTWF into one feat (Two Weapon Fighting) is the most obvious and painless. Almost no one would cause a fuss over it so it's probably the most widespread "fix" (it doesn't actually solve the whole problem).

Improved Two Weapon Fighting could reduce the penalties like one of the TWF prestige classes. Maybe add feats that can give bonus damage so that non-sneak attacking classes can make use of it and actually have damage approaching Power Attack. Two Weapon Rend could probably be modified into something useful like this.

[Lycanthromancer]

Roll the TWF line into one feat that scales, without that dumb penalty to-hit. Roll in something similar to Double-Hit into it, where you can make two attacks (one with your off-hand) whenever you could make a single attack (such on AoOs, and during a standard-action attack). Both require separate attack rolls, but have the same modifiers. You can use Dex instead of Str for attack, damage, and actions such as bull-rushes, etc, but it requires that you be wielding both weapons.

Toss on a feat that grants scaling damage (in d6s or d8s) each hit as you go up in levels, but at the increasing expense of accuracy, but only used when you're using both weapons. Does not stack with Sneak Attack, and similar.

Toss on a TWF feat that grants a modified version of pounce, and another (with the first as a prereq) that allows you to make a full-attack action as a standard action.

Have the Two Weapon Defense feat scale, and another feat (using TWD as a prereq) that grants cover, rather than a flat +1 bonus, with additional feats that improve the miss chance granted.

And now, TWF is viable.

[Twilight Jack]

If the problem is because of the Marelith, the solution may simply be to make an exception for that monster.

Ie: Fix TWF, but leave the Marelith with the old version.

At least that's my perspective.

I use the marilith for my example because she's the poster child for the potential fallout of any TWF fix. The problem also applies to the Thri-Kreen and numerous other critters.

The marilith is just the worst offender, due to six arms, six enchanted swords, and the BAB to make the most of iterative attacks.

[mistformsquirrl]

Perhaps split it into TWF and MWF? (Multi-Weapon Fighting)? MWF being for monsters mostly.

Ie: TWF is exactly that - fighting with two weapons.

MWF is exactly as TWF is right now (though it allows attacks with every appendage a critter has), while TWF recieves a fix on it's own?

That way critters with multiple arms remain just as they are functionally, while players and humanoid enemies who TWF can be more dangerous?

Again just a thought >.>

[mistformsquirrl]

Bah, sorry about that >< forum nearly died on me for a sec

(Was a double-post, now editted)

[Eldariel]

That's a houserule in my games. TWF, ITWF, and GTWF are a single feat, that scales with BAB. TWD, ITWD, and GTWD are also a single feat, that's +3 shield bonus from the start.

These both are great; I've got them in effect and they make TWF-line worthwhile. In addition, I combine Two-Weapon Pounce and Dual Strike into the basic TWF feat. That is, you can attack with both weapons as a standard action, and at the end of a charge.

Makes both of them actually useful combat modes for a TWFer, and makes sense; if you've trained to fight with two weapons, you should learn such basic styles.

Finally, I allow using Dex for Finesse-weapons without a feat and have Weapon Finesse add Dex to Damage.


I've also ended up with a different version of TWD though; instead of adding increasing base bonuses to AC, it adds your offhand weapon enhancement bonus and +1 base shield bonus to AC (so a +1 weapon adds +2 shield bonus, a +5 weapon adds +6 shield bonus, etc.).

I also use Shield Block-type effect for my shields so I give TWD the ability to make a "blocking strike" per turn. Immediate action attack roll to block an attack that happens within your natural reach, magical weapons can block magical attacks. Can be used vs. touch attacks too.


As far as Mariliths go, they are supposed to be badass. It's a CR 17 Demon for god's sake. Giving it a ton of attacks is no stretch; hell, whenever I use them, I give them Improved and Greater Multiweapon Fighting, and I truly enjoy Telflammar Shadowlord versions with Shadow Pounce. If you get full attacked by one, you deserve the horrible fate you're in for.

Again, those feats already exist; this just means they become standard issue (if you don't keep Multiweapon Fighting as is; fact remains though that multiweapon fighting should be even harder than two-weapon fighting so it's reasonable to keep them apart).

[Goatman_Ted]

I wouldn't worry about Thri-Keen, Xills, Marileths et al becoming more powerful as TWF does.

Just add a couple racial HD to Thri-Keen and up the others' CRs if it's a problem.

[Telonius]

That would actually already be supported by the rules right now.

Multiweapon Fighting [General]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.

Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by 2 with the primary hand and reduced by 6 with off hands.

Normal: A creature without this feat takes a -6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a -10 penalty on attacks made with its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting.

Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.

(Bold added). Since Mariliths (and most other creatures it would apply to) come with Multiweapon Fighting out of the can, you don't even need to change anything to fix them.

[Baron Corm]

I would seriously not discount 3 extra attacks...

If you're PAing with two one-handers, and you include extra damage from a second +10 weapon, that's an extra 75+15d6 damage. THF, with just Power Attack will be getting an extra 80 damage, by comparison, plus perhaps +20 from their higher Strength (no Dexterity pre-reqs) and 1.5x Strength bonus. Either style can add in PA optimization.

I agree with allowing two attacks in a standard action, to help TWFers keep up in that regard, but they really aren't slouching in the full attack damage department.

Of course, you have to actually buy the second +10 weapon, but a THF should have a backup weapon anyway. You're just constantly using yours.

Their attack bonus will generally be lower, but then, against a creature with unhittable or very high AC, they have 3 extra chances of rolling that 20. There's also wraithstrike and so on.

Also note what happens when you add in sneak attack

[quick_comment]

Make all the TWF fighting feats into a single scaling feat.

Then make Three Weapon fighting another feat, with TWF as a prereq. Four weapon fighting requires three weapon fighting and so on.

So if the marilith wants to make full attacks with all its arms it needs up to Six Weapon Fighting, which would be six feats.

[Eldariel]

Also note what happens when you add in sneak attack

Nothing that hasn't already happened. These changes merely reduce the feat cost, and fix many of the problems TWFers have previously had to bend over for. You pay 1 feat to be almost as good as a two-hander. Seems fair to me.

[Morty]

And what do we do with Rangers if we roll TWF into a single feat? Do we give them other feats as they advance in their Combat Style?
My group has simply allowed to make both attacks with a standard action, but that obviously doesn't fix the problem entirely.

[quick_comment]

And what do we do with Rangers if we roll TWF into a single feat? Do we give them other feats as they advance in their Combat Style?
My group has simply allowed to make both attacks with a standard action, but that obviously doesn't fix the problem entirely.

I would, in place of all the higher TWF fighting feats either give the ranger another TWF related feat. (Two weapon defense, Martial Study: Some TWF tiger claw maneuver, etc)

[Justin B.]

Two Weapon Fighting should allow one to make both attacks as a standard action.

When used in conjuction with the single Two Weapon Fighting Feat idea, other interesting feats can be applied as well, for example:

Two Weapon Distraction

Prerequisite: Two Weapon Fighting

When a character fighting with two weapons uses a standard action to make two attacks, if the first attack successfully strikes it causes the creature to be distracted. A distracted creature cannot defend against the next attack as well as it usually does, it's effective armor class is reduced by a number equal to the Base Attack Bonus of it's attacker. This reduction only applies to the next attack in an attack sequence.

A character can use Two Weapon Distraction multiple times in a full round attack, but the distraction effect only applies to the next single attack in the sequence.

Special: A Fighter may select Two Weapon Distraction as a bonus feat.

[Renegade Paladin]

Turn TWF/ITWF/GTWF into one feat that scales.

And do the same for Two-Weapon Defense and its tree.

[Telonius]

And what do we do with Rangers if we roll TWF into a single feat? Do we give them other feats as they advance in their Combat Style?
My group has simply allowed to make both attacks with a standard action, but that obviously doesn't fix the problem entirely.

I turn them into a class feature much like Tempest: reduce the penalties by an additional 1 at 6, and another 1 (total penalty: 0) at 11.

[Eldariel]

And what do we do with Rangers if we roll TWF into a single feat? Do we give them other feats as they advance in their Combat Style?
My group has simply allowed to make both attacks with a standard action, but that obviously doesn't fix the problem entirely.

Give them other TWF feats. I mean, archery gets a variety of toys; no reason TWF wouldn't too. You can keep TWF on 2 (or expect that it's picked, like with Archery and PBS), handing out e.g. Two-Weapon Defense (the buffed version), Two-Weapon Rend [PHBII] and Double Hit [Miniatures Handbook].

TWF on 2, TWD on 6 and TWR on 11 works fine, for example. Or TWF on 2, Double Hit on 6 and TWR on 11. Or TWD on 2, Double Hit on 6 and TWR on 11 (the advantage of this is that Double Hit requires level 6 anyways, and TWR requires level 11 anyways so they work like the previous feats in that regard).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I include TWDefense with TWF so they're both one feat, same goes for ITWDefense with ITWF and GTWDefense with GTWF.

Remember that you can use TWF with a two-handed weapon using armor spikes as your offhand attack.

Rangers don't necessarily have to pick archery or TWF, there are other combat styles not found in the PHB.

In my games, your penalty to attack rolls for Power Attack cannot exceed your Strength bonus or your BAB, whichever is lower. If you take Shock Trooper and Leap Attack with a +12 BAB, but only have Str 18, you can only Power Attack for 4, rather than for 12. It creates a game world in which characters like Barbarians are capable of the biggest attacks, and monsters like giants are regarded as considerably more dangerous due to their high Strength scores.

[Twilight Jack]

In my games, your penalty to attack rolls for Power Attack cannot exceed your Strength bonus or your BAB, whichever is lower. If you take Shock Trooper and Leap Attack with a +12 BAB, but only have Str 18, you can only Power Attack for 4, rather than for 12. It creates a game world in which characters like Barbarians are capable of the biggest attacks, and monsters like giants are regarded as considerably more dangerous due to their high Strength scores.

The only problem I see with fixing it that way is that it further nerfs melee characters in relation to casters. Being able to PA for an epic butt-ton of damage is one of the few perks of being a mid to high level fighter.

I'd rather bring TWF up than bring PA down.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

In my games, your penalty to attack rolls for Power Attack cannot exceed your Strength bonus or your BAB, whichever is lower. If you take Shock Trooper and Leap Attack with a +12 BAB, but only have Str 18, you can only Power Attack for 4, rather than for 12. It creates a game world in which characters like Barbarians are capable of the biggest attacks, and monsters like giants are regarded as considerably more dangerous due to their high Strength scores.

Unfortunately, STR is the easiest stat to boost. Orc Barb with Extra Rage has 26 Str for each fight at level 1(reasonable, since I don't expect any character to make it from 1-5, even if the campaign does). That lasts you until level 9, by which point you have a +2 item and +2 from levels. By 11, when those boosts run out, you probably have a +4 item, and at some point got Enlarge Person as a constant Wondrous Item or something. That with a +6 item gets you to 14. See how this goes? And none of that stuff is specific to your game, it's how I'd expect a damage dealer beatstick to progress through the first 15 levels.

And besides, all nerfing PA does is make melee weaker.

I can't believe I forgot to mention my favorite TWF fix:ToB!!! It does a lot of what this thread talks about, and makes S&B viable in the process.

[Twilight Jack]

Unfortunately, STR is the easiest stat to boost. Orc Barb with Extra Rage has 26 Str for each fight at level 1(reasonable, since I don't expect any character to make it from 1-5, even if the campaign does). That lasts you until level 9, by which point you have a +2 item and +2 from levels. By 11, when those boosts run out, you probably have a +4 item, and at some point got Enlarge Person as a constant Wondrous Item or something. That with a +6 item gets you to 14. See how this goes? And none of that stuff is specific to your game, it's how I'd expect a damage dealer beatstick to progress through the first 15 levels.

And besides, all nerfing PA does is make melee weaker.

I can't believe I forgot to mention my favorite TWF fix:ToB!!! It does a lot of what this thread talks about, and makes S&B viable in the process.

My only issues with using ToB as the sum fix of the melee classes relate to flavor. I just can't see making all fighters into warblades or crusaders. I see those two as very specialized classes that fit a specific bit of fluff. My biggest problem with 4e is that it extended a revision of the martial maneuver system to encompass every class. I like my ToB classes to be rare and special.

So I'm left trying to fix the sword and board and two weapon fighting stuff through the feat system.